Ooooookay. Why is the term "Mary Sue" being thrown around like paint?

[wizzy555]

Not to mention, Luke learned how to Force Pull his lightsaber in ESB without any training, and nobody seems to gripe about that. Or at least I haven't heard anyone. He just, apparently, learned how to do it on his own. Why should he think the Force would allow him to move objects? From what we see in New Hope, Ben makes no mention of this particular ability. But Luke does it. So I see no reason why Rey couldn't also, equally naturally figure out how to:
1. Resist someone trying to enter her mind and root around for information.
2. Having realized the Force can let you mess with someone's head, (having just resisted it), tries to use it to make the Trooper set her free.

I still think she's a surviving padawan, but even if she isn't, it seems pretty reasonable from what we see.

Because he was shit at it. It moved less than a metre and it took a huge effort for him to do that.

The prequels (which are still cannon) established that Jedi train a lot, from child-hood to adult-hood, in empire Yoda goes on and on about training. So it is entirely cannon that training is important. In the prequels children that seem to be about 5 years old are seen doing the blind light sabre training thing that Luke does in Ep 4. They are probably not far from the basic object movement.

There's is clearly disparity here. Now maybe this can be resolved in the largely still unknown backstory or we have to accept Rey is just a far far better Jedi (I never really bought that Luke was a prodigy anyway).

 

[wizzy555]

That argument tends to be used against Rey, on the grounds that Luke could "barely" pull his saber out, while she pulls a saber that another force user is also working on across a small clearing. This is where we get into shit like "Her force pull is at level 5 and should only be a level 1" and I entirely lose my patience with the tenor of the argument. However, yes, the OT and even the exposition riddled prequels are hopelessly vague about what Jedi Training even IS. The guys at Red Letter Media are openly hostile to the concept of "Jedi School", mocking the prequels scenes of tots standing around waving lightsabers. In their minds, Luke facing Vader without losing his soul in the process WAS his training. Do that, bam, you're a Jedi. Narratively, it makes sense for a fundamentally spiritual element like the force to require metaphysical "training", not a bunch of concrete running around, lifting rocks, or dueling. To my mind the purpose of Luke's training was always to settle him down/balance his mind, not to pump up his force muscles.

Ok we'll call this the "muscle force" model vs the "enlightenment force" model. This doesn't really alter the dynamic of the argument much. If a character is just so much quicker at achieving enlightenment it carries the same issues.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Ok we'll call this the "muscle force" model vs the "enlightenment force" model. This doesn't really alter the dynamic of the argument much. If a character is just so much quicker at achieving enlightenment it carries the same issues.

Less enlightenment, more "calmness/centered". Yoda didn't tell Luke he must first walk the long path to enlightenment to lift his ship out of the swamp, he just wanted him to submerge his fears/apprehensions/anger and do it. The general gist is the power is in you, it's a question of finding your center so you can reach in and touch it. Or, if you prefer the "easy way", access it through powerful negative emotion and turn into a piece of shit as a consequence.

 

[wizzy555]

Ok we'll call this the "muscle force" model vs the "enlightenment force" model. This doesn't really alter the dynamic of the argument much. If a character is just so much quicker at achieving enlightenment it carries the same issues.

Less enlightenment, more "calmness/centered". Yoda didn't tell Luke he must first walk the long path to enlightenment to lift his ship out of the swamp, he just wanted him to submerge his fears/apprehensions/anger and do it. The general gist is the power is in you, it's a question of finding your center so you can reach in and touch it. Or, if you prefer the "easy way", access it through powerful negative emotion and turn into a piece of shit as a consequence.

Well that just changes the argument to:

"Luke had to run with a hobbit on his back and fight an inner-spectre of his hatred, Rey just had to close her eyes breathe slowly".

 

[BloatedGuppy]

"Luke had to run with a hobbit on his back and fight an inner-spectre of his hatred, Rey just had to close her eyes breathe slowly".

Is this what we're doing then? Back to "The only adversity Rey faced during the film was breathing slowly"? Honestly wizzy, the whole thread is here for your edification. I don't have a tremendous amount of energy to re-hash nonsense.

Also worthy of note, Luke did all those things in the second film. Good thing motherfuckers in the 70's were a little more patient.

 

[happyninja42]

Not to mention, Luke learned how to Force Pull his lightsaber in ESB without any training, and nobody seems to gripe about that. Or at least I haven't heard anyone. He just, apparently, learned how to do it on his own. Why should he think the Force would allow him to move objects? From what we see in New Hope, Ben makes no mention of this particular ability. But Luke does it. So I see no reason why Rey couldn't also, equally naturally figure out how to:
1. Resist someone trying to enter her mind and root around for information.
2. Having realized the Force can let you mess with someone's head, (having just resisted it), tries to use it to make the Trooper set her free.

I still think she's a surviving padawan, but even if she isn't, it seems pretty reasonable from what we see.

Because he was shit at it. It moved less than a metre and it took a huge effort for him to do that.

And how is that any different from Rey, trying to mind trick someone standing right in front of her, and having to do it several times before it finally works? She tried, failed, tried again, failed again, finally got it to work. Luke tried, failed, tried again, failed again, finally got it to work. The parallels are pretty obvious. As to her moving the lightsaber, considering it was moved in the same direction that Kylo Ren was moving it, she just sort of hijacked the move, I always took it to mean they sort of pulled it together, but she won out in the tug of war as to where it would finally land. I mean look at the way he turns. It flies over his shoulder to her. Meaning the direction he was pulling, was the same way she was pulling. So it's not liek they were on opposite sides, directly opposed. He pulled it, lets say to the East, so did she, she just tweaked the spin a few degrees to the side, so it flew passed him to her.

The prequels (which are still cannon) established that Jedi train a lot, from child-hood to adult-hood, in empire Yoda goes on and on about training. So it is entirely cannon that training is important. In the prequels children that seem to be about 5 years old are seen doing the blind light sabre training thing that Luke does in Ep 4. They are probably not far from the basic object movement.

There's is clearly disparity here. Now maybe this can be resolved in the largely still unknown backstory or we have to accept Rey is just a far far better Jedi (I never really bought that Luke was a prodigy anyway).

You're right, there is a disparity, almost like there were 20+ years of time between the original and the prequels for the creator to flesh out the story further, making earlier stuff presented seem odd. But if we're going to call out Rey for not having her powers justified, then we have to do it to Luke too. And if we're going to let Luke get a pass, then Rey should get one too.

I personally have no issue with Rey learning new abilities with the Force, since Ben flat out says that the Force can control your actions. When Luke asks him that specific questions. He answers "Partially, but it also obeys your commands." This sets up a precedent for Force users being able to do shit they normally couldn't do. Why? Because the Force did it for them. It would be one of those situations where the Force "controls your actions", and thus giving you skills you didn't have, in a situation where you need them. Which again, is established in canon from the original trilogy. So even if she has no justifiable reason for doing what she does, ( I personally think she does, being a padawan survivor), it still fits for what we know about Force users, and the crazy shit they can pull out of their ass when thematically appropriate for the scene.

 

[wizzy555]

"Luke had to run with a hobbit on his back and fight an inner-spectre of his hatred, Rey just had to close her eyes breathe slowly".

Good thing motherfuckers in the 70's were a little more patient.

Actually I suggest that in one of my first posts it was down to not repeating "jedi training" for the sake of the audience.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

The prequels (which are still cannon) established that Jedi train a lot, from child-hood to adult-hood, in empire Yoda goes on and on about training. So it is entirely cannon that training is important. In the prequels children that seem to be about 5 years old are seen doing the blind light sabre training thing that Luke does in Ep 4. They are probably not far from the basic object movement.

This is one of the areas where the prequels directly contradict the OT, and Disney has been pretty clear about going with the OT every time this happens. Luke has ZERO Jedi training. He gets about an hour of instruction from Ben Kenobi before he dies, then proceeds to use telekinesis, fight competently with his saber, blow up the Death Star, and pull of a variety of other spectacular stunts all before going to the swamp for a few days of cardio with a green muppet.

This is to say nothing of the fact that showing a bunch of kids standing around with Millenium Falcon style blast helmets and remotes was evidence of the utterly bankrupt and broken creative process used in those films. Much like midichlorians, it's the kind of embarrassment they seem eager to sweep under the carpet. They want to get back to "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter", and less "The Force is a bunch of tiny organisms". More "The Force moves through us and around us" and less "Time for Jedi School, you must train from age 3 or you'll be a TOTAL POSER".

 

[wizzy555]

The prequels (which are still cannon) established that Jedi train a lot, from child-hood to adult-hood, in empire Yoda goes on and on about training. So it is entirely cannon that training is important. In the prequels children that seem to be about 5 years old are seen doing the blind light sabre training thing that Luke does in Ep 4. They are probably not far from the basic object movement.

This is one of the areas where the prequels directly contradict the OT, and Disney has been pretty clear about going with the OT every time this happens. Luke has ZERO Jedi training. He gets about an hour of instruction from Ben Kenobi before he dies, then proceeds to use telekinesis, fight competently with his saber, blow up the Death Star, and pull of a variety of other spectacular stunts all before going to the swamp for a few days of cardio with a green muppet.

This is to say nothing of the fact that showing a bunch of kids standing around with Millenium Falcon style blast helmets and remotes was evidence of the utterly bankrupt and broken creative process used in those films. Much like midichlorians, it's the kind of embarrassment they seem eager to sweep under the carpet. They want to get back to "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter", and less "The Force is a bunch of tiny organisms". More "The Force moves through us and around us" and less "Time for Jedi School, you must train from age 3 or you'll be a TOTAL POSER".

To state the obvious you are embracing the thematic themes you prefer while your opponents are embracing the cannon more rigidly with a somewhat unjustified idea that Luke's progression was an "above average or higher" example of jedi predisposition.

telekinesis, fight competently with his saber,

There's 3 years after the death star before we see him do that. I always took it that he tried to study the force in that time, but that's what happens when you leave too much stuff for audience interpretation.


For the record I think JJ's Captain Kirk is a pretty ridiculous "too good" character too.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

For the record I think JJ's Captain Kirk is a pretty ridiculous "too good" character too.

As long as we're on the record, I think the overwhelming majority of protagonists in escapist fiction are "too good", from Kirk to Luke to Rey to Neo to Ripley to John Wick. To say nothing of the panoply of super heroes, almost all of whom turn the dial straight to 11. The argument that Rey is comically powerful is easy to make. The argument that she's somehow different in her comically powerful ways from all these other worthies is the one I struggle with.

And you're right, I am pretty selective about which themes I embrace, but Disney has been pretty transparent in terms of how they're approaching the six films. They're all canon, but the OT is "more canon". They took extremely evident strides to distance themselves from the prequels and create thematic bridges and callbacks to the OT.

 

[wizzy555]

For the record I think JJ's Captain Kirk is a pretty ridiculous "too good" character too.

As long as we're on the record, I think the overwhelming majority of protagonists in escapist fiction are "too good", from Kirk to Luke to Rey to Neo to Ripley to John Wick. To say nothing of the panoply of super heroes, almost all of whom turn the dial straight to 11. The argument that Rey is comically powerful is easy to make. The argument that she's somehow different in her comically powerful ways from all these other worthies is the one I struggle with.

The problem is with this one we have a clear barometer - an in-universe* example to compare to (who was going through a very similar situation). If this was the first star wars movie, there would be no issue, people would just have a higher expectation for jedi.

If there was a "neo 2" I'm sure we could have the some discussion.

*A universe that nerds have spent nearly half a century pondering over canon.

 

[happyninja42]

For the record I think JJ's Captain Kirk is a pretty ridiculous "too good" character too.

As long as we're on the record, I think the overwhelming majority of protagonists in escapist fiction are "too good", from Kirk to Luke to Rey to Neo to Ripley to John Wick. To say nothing of the panoply of super heroes, almost all of whom turn the dial straight to 11. The argument that Rey is comically powerful is easy to make. The argument that she's somehow different in her comically powerful ways from all these other worthies is the one I struggle with.

The problem is with this one we have a clear barometer - an in-universe* example to compare to (who was going through a very similar situation). If this was the first star wars movie, there would be no issue, people would just have a higher expectation for jedi.

If there was a "neo 2" I'm sure we could have the some discussion.

*A universe that nerds have spent nearly half a century pondering over canon.

Yeah, considering all the EU has basically tainted fans minds into what is/isn't permitted for Force users doesn't help matters at all. Thankfully, I avoided most of that EU like the plague, especially after the Thrawn trilogy. *shudders* Talk about a poorly written character.

The part that amuses and annoys me the most, is the assumption by a certain amount of the fans, that JJ is obligated to give them the movie they think it should be. And that it should obey their rules and logic for in-verse stuff. Sorry people, but JJ and Disney don't owe you shit. They can make whatever movie they damn well want, and you have no say in it.

 

[BarkBarker]

As I understood it, someone who wins all the damn time despite all reason saying they shouldn't. Mastery without the actual knowledge or time, in all aspects of their life be it relationships, combat, competence in engineering and what have you. Common with author insert who write awfully, also common in some shonen shows with shallow characters like Sword Art Online that somebody mentioned, the main character is effectively "gods favourite" if I were to sum it up, gets everything easily and without effort.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Disagree completely there. Disney's expanded universe, the one that kids (the primary target audience for Star Wars) are seeing is all about the prequels.

If you're actually convinced that TFA was not a conscious and overt attempt to recapture the style and texture of the OT...something virtually every member of the production talked up aggressively...and distance the new films from the prequels, then...well...we'll just have to continue disagreeing completely. We'll sit in stony silence, glaring at one another through eyes hooded with suspicion.

 

[toliman]

we have to accept Rey is just a far far better Jedi.

That's the reason why she's a Mary Sue character in a nutshell.


Rey, as shown through the story can't be a Jedi. Except she is, because reasons.

Other things might come along, but that's the one thing that the movie, or the books / new EU fails to address in any fashion. By giving her the ability to use the force, without showing her failing or struggling or ever having used it before she needs to use it, it fulfils the criteria of being a "Black Hole Sue", in that the reality of the movie universe bends to make her character succeed.

She can use the force, sure. But she's not trained, she is too competent at using the force for a beginner, and to make it worse, she's on par with someone who has been trained as a Jedi, who has used it to murder, torture, etc.

What exactly is Luke, at the end of TFA going to teach Rey as a student ? how to make space coffee ? she's beaten Kylo, and mastered a significant amount of the force. As a plot device, it leaves her character in a bad state for the sequel because now we kind of halve her expectations, she has to be "better", she has to find a family or her original family, and face some kind of ephemeral conflict with her identity.

Nothing in the movie or novel explains how she can resist Kylo, nor how she knows about force persuasion as used on the trooper, etc. Somehow, she "knows" more than she should about how the jedi or the force works, from being exposed to it for ~20 seconds in the film when interrogated by Kylo.

I'm not considering her mechanical aptitude, or her combat skills, because those at least, have some (awful) grounding in establishing the character, that's not the "Sue" part.

The only absurd in-universe explanations that covers this is are
1) She's a former Jedi student, or her parents were.
2) She can "download" people's abilities / memories. (there's some non-disney EU precedence -- of course there is...)
3) she is a "buzzword" in the force. (see the non-disney extended universe for more egregious examples of this trope)
4) Midichlorians
5) The writer(s) are a fucking joke
6) All of the above.

in retrospective, it starts as soon as she resists Kylo Ren. Somehow, that one event is supposed to have imparted an ability to resist, and then invade Kylo's mind and somehow download an entire lifetime of training and memories. From the point that she discovers how to use the force, she does not fail. This could just be J.J. Abrams being afraid of injuring a female lead under Disney execs, but it destroys the character's growth.

That's almost a Japanese Light Novel level of Mary Sue skill displayed just to get the character "up to speed".

She doesn't train, and somehow she picks up force abilities from nowhere. Things like her mechanical aptitude and her sword/saber skills can be excused as "things you end up doing on a desert planet to survive (at least the kids friendly disney version of survival)"

As for other characters being mary sue analogues in the previous movies, I direct you to TOR.com's character analysis of Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi training luke to assassinate his own father. http://www.tor.com/2015/01/26/this-is-why-obi-wan-lied-to-luke-skywalker-about-his-father/

think what you want about George Lucas, somehow he managed to copy or steal this idea from somewhere because it actually makes a kind of sense for the character's motives.

Still, following the JP story arc idea, if they really wanted to fuck with the franchise/arc, Rey could be a clone of Kenobi/Skywalker/Palpatine (or another, older sith). Explains her abilities, and explains her being abandoned, and a lack of parents too. Similar to the "born from midichlorians nonsense, that concept could also be tied into a coherent mess explaining Anakin's virgin birth / conception too.

If she's a daughter of a sith, it makes a snoke confrontation a lot more apocryphal/symbolic, as to ESB.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

6) All of the above.

in retrospective, it starts as soon as she resists Kylo Ren. Somehow, that one event is supposed to have imparted an ability to resist, and then invade Kylo's mind and somehow download an entire lifetime of training and memories. From the point that she discovers how to use the force, she does not fail. This could just be J.J. Abrams being afraid of injuring a female lead under Disney execs, but it destroys the character's growth.

I was actually willing to accept the resisting part of that scene. I can buy someone who is force sensitive being able to resist having their mind probed like that. Strong minds and wills and all that, and Clones Wars showed Non-Force sensitives can resist that sort of thing.

What broke that scene for me was her turning it around on Kylo and ripping secrets out of his head, and then going on with the mind trick.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

It is just a stupid term sucked in by the internet and regurgitated over and over till it has lost its meaning like most popular terms. It is kind of insulting that it is always used on female characters most of the time unfairly. So many people use that term on Rey that you would thing that all the people who use it come from some weird hive mind. It is just the same tired argument over and over again

Hive-minder checking in. Honestly, she left me feeling pretty cold. She genuinely was perfect to the point of being a bit annoying/boring. Those were my feelings. You get to share internal conflict as well as the films better comedy moments with Finn(the other new hero character which I would still say was underdeveloped, though not to the point of stopping me from enjoying the film), which help give his character... Character.

Maybe you can tell me what I missed. If you were to sell me on the character, how would you explain her? What is her personality like? What are her affectations?




Really? I didn't feel that way about her at all I found her incredibly likable as a character and I thought that there was a lot of depth to her
Okay here is how I would explain her character
She has severe abandonment issues. She has had a hard life on Jakku where she has had to scrounge up a meager existence by hunting for scrap for many years. She has also done this on her own as it looks like she doesn't live with anybody else so consequently it has hardened her outlook on life. Her outlook changes through the course of the movie as she finally leaves Jakku in the wide world. Her manner brightens around Finn and especially around Han Solo because I think she seems him as a sort of father figure. Still even though she is enjoying herself on her journey she still feels obligated to return to Jakku in the vain hope that her family will eventually return for her. Through the course of the movie she has to come to terms with the fact that her destiny will be settled elsewhere. She is a dynamic character whose desires and motivations change throughout the movie. She is not some perfect character that has no growth at all. She is a protagonist who is gifted with many of the same traits that protagonists normally have such as Harry Potter or Odysseus. Oh and of course she is attractive this is a movie after all Hollywood actors are usually considered to be beautiful people. You can say that every main character in Star Wars Awakens are attractive people.

You fucked up the quote there. Not criticising exactly... Done so more times than I can count. Just to be clear that I'm misquoted.

I noticed what you're talking about enough to know what you're talking about, but I found it all to be underdeveloped. I hope they flesh out the details that you mentioned in the films that follow, because they felt like vague nods to character motivations and history than they did anything substantial, IMHO. That's where my heads at. Not that she can't be a good character, she just isn't yet.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

I'll just put my thoughts on the argument about Rey as a Mary Sue here. Mostly, I'll be looking at the major complaints about her.

Being a skilled pilot: To a degree, I can see this argument. After all, she's never flown off-world, and says so herself. Then again, neither had Luke or Anakin, and they had no issues flying an X-Wing. Millenium Falcon might be a little bigger, though. Then again, she spent about half the initial "fight" against the First Order on Jakku praying for it to work.

Knowing more about the Falcon than Han: This is the first argument that I think is mostly due to misinterpretation. First of all, a lot of the ship has changed since Han had it. Secondly, the one time she makes a suggestion, it's literally a case of her finishing Han's thoughts. Finally, when she "bypasses" that inhibitor thingy, I didn't read Han's reaction as "Wow! I didn't think of that!" but more "Huh. Nice going, kid." True, she impressed him enough to be offered a position on the ship, but that was as much due to knowing the ship than knowing more than Han.

Mind probe backfire: I have a feeling that this was less of Rey being awesome, and more of Kylo Ren being massively insecure, both emotionally and mentally. It didn't backfire on Poe, because Poe is (most likely) not Force Sensitive. It didn't backfire any of the other untold times, because for all we know, it was part of his training, or against already brainwashed people. Once he used it against someone who was Force Sensitive and not mentally inhibited, it backfired.

The mind trick: All right. This is a bit of a freebie. Even taking three tries, it did seem odd to contrast her first experience with it to Luke's. Luke was pretty much blown away by Obi-Wan doing it. Rey? Nails it in three tries. Seems a bit peculiar at least. Made for a funny scene, though. "Aaand I'll drop my weapon."

Pulling the lightsaber: This one is a bit on the edge for me. On the one hand, she did seem to do it a lot more effortlessly than Luke did his first time. On the other, not only was Kylo Ren essentially doing the work for her, but it had been established earlier in the movie that the lightsaber was calling to her, so you could say she had more of an attachment to it, which could have swayed the odds.

Beating Kylo Ren: This is the argument that drives me crazy the most, because it fails to notice two major things. Firstly, that Rey is actually losing the fight for a good chunk of it, and only gets her own back when she is reminded about the power of the Force, albeit unintentionally. Secondly, that Kylo Ren is fighting with a bowcaster shot to the gut. I've heard it argued that "It didn't seem to bother him before", but it was pretty obviously bothering him, judging from his pounding on his chest to pump himself up to keep going. The other argument I've heard (and this was from a Star Wars fan, mind you), that the dark side is all about pain, so being weakened by the bowcaster shot actually made him stronger in the Force. Yeah, I don't think that's how pain works. Or blood loss. There's also the less major, but still noticeable, fact that when Kylo Ren goes off to probe Rey's mind, Snoke (heh, such a stupid name) basically says "Uh, dude, she's a powerful Force Sensitive, and you haven't even finished training. Why don't you let someone who is fully trained take her on?" So you can't even make the argument that she beat "a fully trained dark Jedi", because it was established that he isn't fully trained.


Overall, I can kind of understand the arguments, I think. I just think some of them miss what is established in the movie, and others fail to draw the intended conclusions. That doesn't mean I think the people who think she is a "Mary Sue" are wrong, persay. I just don't think they are right, either.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

The point I was making is that when Leia screwed up, it nearly got them killed, while Rey's ended up saving the day. Not that Leia was a Sue, and the only reason I even brought up that point was because you wrote off Harry's mistakes due to Harry being in a bunch of books by that point.

Leia's "mistake" gets the essential plans to the Rebellion, and lets loose both the ship that provides the covering fire and the pilot who fires the deciding shot. Yet somehow this is "screwing up and almost getting them killed", whereas Rey "ends up saving the day" because a dual mission to save her/sabotage the shields results in sabotaging the shields.

You're right, the point clearly is over my head, because it seems like you're trying to make my argument for me.

Did you even watch A New Hope? Like, ever? The plans were getting there one way or another. The Empire WANTED them to escape so they could track the Falcon to the Rebel base. Leia couldn't have known that, but her dropping them in the garbage chute still ended up nearly getting them killed and placed in unnecessary danger.

The plan to rescue Rey was just a rescue operation. They only decided to sabotage the Starkiller shields after they got her and saw things weren't going well.