Out of Sight Out of Mind (Mass Effect 2)

[toadking07]

Yeah, the world is a big place, no way to see it all, but you can try!

 

[Starke]

FUCK i just was typing a semi long response to you and my friend's laptop decided to CLOSE THE PAGE. But anywho see above for my final(Ish) thoughts.

My sympathies. But, honestly, you did make some pretty good points.

Well I got you confused with catchphrase cuz my inbox was being assy.

It's okay, I mistook Ascian for a troll for entirely different reasons.

You're not a troll and you and Starke keep slinging around valid points I suppose. For the first few weeks I had ME2 I found it kinda hard to like cuz I wasn't completely used to massive overhaul they gave it so I guess I pointed my finger towards plot.

I probably should explain that I straight up love this game, or at least the gameplay itself. Go places, shoot shit. The revised RPG mechanics aren't bad. It took me a while before I started using the heavy weapon, but with things like the black hole launcher, the heavy weapons can be freaking hillarious.

The source of my bitching at the game really is the writing. That I've finished the game four or five times and gotten really good at ignoring the parts of the story that just don't make sense is (I guess) a credit to exactly how compartmentalized they are from the rest of the game.

And the reason I'm not giving a good debate is because all my english teachers were piss poor and barely covered debate.

I'd say don't worry about that, that much. Good english classes would only really explain to you how the story is in fact poor quality in places.

lol I actually really like most of the dialouge and VA in it so that writing is solid.

To their credit, the voice actors save some pretty atrocious dialog, in this and in DAO. In some cases, the VAs manage to make it hillarious to boot.

Certain things I don't like in the main plot is how Shepard keeps trusting the Illusive Man after he's walked into two traps. Also I have a litttle problem with the collectors and how instead of boarding the SR1 they just blow it to shit. It seems like they could have done smarter stuff but it sets up the rest of the game.

There's a simple truth in writing; you cannot write a character who is smarter than you are. Now, I'm not saying that Bioware is less intellgent than a bunch of (litterally) brainless bugs... no, wait, actually I am.

I dunno, I was just on the fence for a while but I'm really enjoying ME2 now.

Same here. Though, I still loathe the story.

OH and Jacob's Loyalty mission is kind of a joke. Ship stranded on planet for 10(8?) years using modern heat sinks and mechs. Did I miss something or was Bioware just like "THE REST OF THE GAME IS SOLID, FUCK YOU JACOB"?

They've still got the heat syncs you had two years ago that don't run out, ever?

 

[Starke]

I really didn't have any opinion on the topic, I just couldn't resist pointing that out once I thought of it.

ah yeah, i can see the temptation to point it out must've been massive once you had a link. that'll teach me not to google an example before use.

You could have gone with Mounty wandering around in another country. It's funnier, and on topic.

 

[Huxleykrcc]

I'm pretty sure you don't know about everything in our galaxy. Why would you know everything about Mass Effects? With a game that literally spans the galaxy it would be wierd to NOT find new species/things/planets/etc.

Edit: As per the whole "ME 2 was made up on the spot argument" certain people are making in this thread, frankly you don't know what you're talking about. Mass Effect was designed as a trilogy from the get go and the main story arcs were set in place before the first game was even finished. Like most developers do with large stories and big titles, Bioware has a "Mass Effect Bible" that contains the direction for all their main story arcs and which they refer back to constantly to make sure the story makes sense and fits it's intended direction. In other words, Bioware already knew the direciton the story is going to head in ME 3 before ME 1 was even complete. It, of course, doesn't contain exact specific details for every little thing, but the gist of main story is completely there.

Don't believe me? Go back and watch the extras that came in the special edition ME 1's and hear all that directly from the devs. It's pretty common for developers to plan all that stuff years in advance. It helps to ensure sequels make sense and have continuity.

One has to wonder, then, why it doesn't.

ME2 DOES lack a sense of continuity--while things like Justiciars didn't bother me, the whole new species of the Vorcha is a borderline retcon, and the three mercenary groups which somehow have the funds and manpower to permeate half the galaxy yet the political and/or military werewithal to avoid any apparent attention from law enforcement were somehow omitted from the first game--and thus, probably created after ME1.

Which is fine. With the high standard of writing and the whole ME1-save-games thing, it's hard to complain about a lack of continuity in the mass effect series. But I find it hard to believe that all story elements of ME2 were created before ME1 was finished.

 

[Always_Remain]

FUCK i just was typing a semi long response to you and my friend's laptop decided to CLOSE THE PAGE. But anywho see above for my final(Ish) thoughts.

My sympathies. But, honestly, you did make some pretty good points.

Well I got you confused with catchphrase cuz my inbox was being assy.

It's okay, I mistook Ascian for a troll for entirely different reasons.

You're not a troll and you and Starke keep slinging around valid points I suppose. For the first few weeks I had ME2 I found it kinda hard to like cuz I wasn't completely used to massive overhaul they gave it so I guess I pointed my finger towards plot.

I probably should explain that I straight up love this game, or at least the gameplay itself. Go places, shoot shit. The revised RPG mechanics aren't bad. It took me a while before I started using the heavy weapon, but with things like the black hole launcher, the heavy weapons can be freaking hillarious.

The source of my bitching at the game really is the writing. That I've finished the game four or five times and gotten really good at ignoring the parts of the story that just don't make sense is (I guess) a credit to exactly how compartmentalized they are from the rest of the game.

And the reason I'm not giving a good debate is because all my english teachers were piss poor and barely covered debate.

I'd say don't worry about that, that much. Good english classes would only really explain to you how the story is in fact poor quality in places.

lol I actually really like most of the dialouge and VA in it so that writing is solid.

To their credit, the voice actors save some pretty atrocious dialog, in this and in DAO. In some cases, the VAs manage to make it hillarious to boot.

Certain things I don't like in the main plot is how Shepard keeps trusting the Illusive Man after he's walked into two traps. Also I have a litttle problem with the collectors and how instead of boarding the SR1 they just blow it to shit. It seems like they could have done smarter stuff but it sets up the rest of the game.

There's a simple truth in writing; you cannot write a character who is smarter than you are. Now, I'm not saying that Bioware is less intellgent than a bunch of (litterally) brainless bugs... no, wait, actually I am.

I dunno, I was just on the fence for a while but I'm really enjoying ME2 now.

Same here. Though, I still loathe the story.

OH and Jacob's Loyalty mission is kind of a joke. Ship stranded on planet for 10(8?) years using modern heat sinks and mechs. Did I miss something or was Bioware just like "THE REST OF THE GAME IS SOLID, FUCK YOU JACOB"?

They've still got the heat syncs you had two years ago that don't run out, ever?

Oh I knew I was off on the years. And all I have to say is I like the way you think and I'm adding you. Oh and isn't the Quarian accents being all completely different hilarious? (even though they are my favorite species xD)

 

[Icehearted]

Frankly, I loved the newness of it all. Just when I thought I had the galaxy sorted out I come back from a 2 year break (lol) and find there's more out there than I'd realized. Without spoiling anything, practically everything I wanted to know more about was revealed in the second game, and the newer places, not to mention that there are more of them, made the galaxy feel more lived in, even if somehow the game feels noticeably smaller to me (probably the loss insightful removal of the Mako garbage.

I figure there's going to be plenty more back story on these things in the conclusion of the series. Bioware is great at topping themselves, so who knows what's in store.... as long as EA stays the hell out of their way.

 

[LiquidXlr8]

Cerberus played quite a role in Mass Effect, but only in side missions.

Also, do you know how big one single galaxy is? Hundreds of thousands of solar systems. Trillions upon trillions of lifeforms.

Think about yourself in real life. How much do you know about the Democratic Republic of the Congo? Their governmental system, their economic status? Or how about the World Bank? We live on a tiny, tiny, tiny piece of space, have only 7 billion people to keep track of, and it's still very hard to. Now multiply that by a million.

Kudos on a well thought, and not overly sarcastic response. We need more people like you on the internet to keep the level of civility somewhere above 4chan.

 

[high_castle]

I'm pretty sure you don't know about everything in our galaxy. Why would you know everything about Mass Effects? With a game that literally spans the galaxy it would be wierd to NOT find new species/things/planets/etc.

Edit: As per the whole "ME 2 was made up on the spot argument" certain people are making in this thread, frankly you don't know what you're talking about. Mass Effect was designed as a trilogy from the get go and the main story arcs were set in place before the first game was even finished. Like most developers do with large stories and big titles, Bioware has a "Mass Effect Bible" that contains the direction for all their main story arcs and which they refer back to constantly to make sure the story makes sense and fits it's intended direction. In other words, Bioware already knew the direciton the story is going to head in ME 3 before ME 1 was even complete. It, of course, doesn't contain exact specific details for every little thing, but the gist of main story is completely there.

Don't believe me? Go back and watch the extras that came in the special edition ME 1's and hear all that directly from the devs. It's pretty common for developers to plan all that stuff years in advance. It helps to ensure sequels make sense and have continuity.

One has to wonder, then, why it doesn't.

ME2 DOES lack a sense of continuity--while things like Justiciars didn't bother me, the whole new species of the Vorcha is a borderline retcon, and the three mercenary groups which somehow have the funds and manpower to permeate half the galaxy yet the political and/or military werewithal to avoid any apparent attention from law enforcement were somehow omitted from the first game--and thus, probably created after ME1.

Which is fine. With the high standard of writing and the whole ME1-save-games thing, it's hard to complain about a lack of continuity in the mass effect series. But I find it hard to believe that all story elements of ME2 were created before ME1 was finished.

Actually, a few of the mercenary groups were mentioned in the first ME novel, which was written at the same time as the game. So even though you didn't hear it about it in the game, they existed in the universe. Just like Omega was a major location in the second ME novel. The games are not the only source of canon. And, to paraphrase Douglas Adams, space is big. It's really, really big. If you think you've seen everything in the ME universe or even heard of it already, you'd be wrong.

No, my problems with ME2 came less from the inclusion of new species and locations, and more the lessened amounts of characterization and RPG elements.

 

[Saris Kai]

You can find another prothean beacon on a side mission in mass effect 2, it gives you a shorter version of the vision you get in mass effect 1. it freezes for a few seconds on one of the frames showing a collector, I went back to mass effect one and looked at the 'complied' vision that Liara allows you to see again and I'm pretty sure the same frame was in the original vision, just not tacked onto it.

People have dug through the original vision in depth without seeing the collectors. It's possible we're wrong, it's possible Bioware patched it (though my steam client doesn't show a patch to it). The thing that makes me really suspicious is, in the original vision there was a stock footage quality to almost everything, but then you have collectors drawn with what is clearly art, and I'm not sure, but I think it's a new art style, from the image of the protheans in bunkers freaking out.

I play it on 360 so they could have patched it on one and not the other but with bioware's usual attention to detail its more likely they didn't and my mind is making connections I want it too in blurred frames.

 

[Starke]

You can find another prothean beacon on a side mission in mass effect 2, it gives you a shorter version of the vision you get in mass effect 1. it freezes for a few seconds on one of the frames showing a collector, I went back to mass effect one and looked at the 'complied' vision that Liara allows you to see again and I'm pretty sure the same frame was in the original vision, just not tacked onto it.

People have dug through the original vision in depth without seeing the collectors. It's possible we're wrong, it's possible Bioware patched it (though my steam client doesn't show a patch to it). The thing that makes me really suspicious is, in the original vision there was a stock footage quality to almost everything, but then you have collectors drawn with what is clearly art, and I'm not sure, but I think it's a new art style, from the image of the protheans in bunkers freaking out.

I play it on 360 so they could have patched it on one and not the other but with bioware's usual attention to detail its more likely they didn't and my mind is making connections I want it too in blurred frames.

There are shots of the protheans in the original beacon vision, and there's some parity between the protheans and the collectors in appearance, which does help to muddy things even more.

 

[Starke]

Oh and isn't the Quarian accents being all completely different hilarious? (even though they are my favorite species xD)

Who knew they were simultaniously from the middle east and Chicago...

Though, that there's some variation in accents is a nice touch.

 

[Starke]

...touch.

Firstly I have to say thank you to yourself, Nightwolf and AcacianLeaves; I've spent the last hour reading through this thread and am glad to see some debate come from what I thought was an abysmal second act.

You're welcome, it has been fun and I'll relay your thanks to nightwolf the next time I see her. I'd be remiss if I didn't mention BlindChance, but he's been away for a few days.

I'm not incline to individually respond to each of your points, as I am coming into the conversation late, but express an overall viewpoint and take any discussion from there.

Mass Effect 1 in my opinion was a brilliant game. Not a masterpiece, but a well crafted game. It managed to appeal to shooter heads, whilst giving them some flesh to their fodder and vice versa. If one wished to go deeper, they could, in the form of the codex. The key behind this was that the codex was not vital to the understanding of the main game. It was the jam to the buttered toast.

I think I've mentioned it before. The really briliant thing about the codex is that it foreshadows all sorts of content for ME1, and offers a few plot threads for later games. It's just ME2 doesn't use any of them.

Mass Effect 2 in stark contrast is a mess. Reliance on minute details, outside media (never should a book rely on a film, tv show rely on a comic etc to enable story to be clarified) and flat out fan imagination has degraded the series in my opinion. To such an extent I tried to create the theory that TIM was a Reaper and Collector's were misunderstood saviours performing evil for greater good.

Especially a book that is that baddly written. What blows my mind about the novels is how nauseatingly cliche they are. If they weren't tied to the franchise they would have been vanity publications that no one would have read. In tinfoil hat land, I really kinda suspect the writer stuffed important plot material for 2 into the books, not as a plot patch, but in an effort to drum up sales for his books.

It isn't realistic (in the context of this discussion read: in keeping with the created world), but it would at least follow the rule of the dark second chapter as well as other literary tools (poison whisper for another).

However, I don't believe this to entirely of the fault of BioWare, a lot boils down to the audience the game and gaming as a whole seems to have.

I'll run one example to try and simplify my point, apologies if it isn't clear here. I like Modern Warfare 2, and I also like RPGs. My friend likes MW2, but doesn't like RPGs. Another friend likes RPGs but not MW2 (in this example I realise one is a solitary game and another a genre but bare with me). Mass Effect has attempted to bind the three groups into one game, Mass Effect 2 has gone with a supposed developed trend (i.e. 360 is for shooters) and now catered for this trend. In doing so, a stereotype of simplification is required and thus a lot of problems are spawned.

Hence why the true ME2 isn't in existence, and we have the mess ME2 instead.

To their limited credit, it is remarkably hard to create a game that really bridges two different genres. Off hand the only really good shooter/RPG hybrid I've played in the last few years is probably the STALKER franchise. That said, as a pure shooter ME and ME2 fall a little short of the mark, and as RPGs, ME falls a little short, ME2 barely qualifies as one.

I will agree in a series of related stories there will be introductions along the way to keep things fresh, we all like "new" as well as "familiar" - however key items that have a massive bearing on events should be a staple in the very first page.

We're using LOTR as an example so I shall too; the star of Elendil used on Shelob. Received early part of Fellowship. Not pulled out of Frodo's ass in King. Yes, we've established LOTR has a natural advantage due in part to the fact it is one chocolate bar split in three, but is a perfect example of how foreshadowing should be done.

TIM is CENTRAL to ME2, a casual nod in ME1 would have sufficed. Collector's are CENTRAL in ME2, a casual nod (and not debatable, blink and you'll miss it nods) would do. And don't give me bollocks of "if I have sex with Liara, be really nice to her, and say my P's and Q's I'll get a one shot dialogue tree", I'm talking main story line speech option. Elendil was right in your face but wasn't at the same time, THAT is what I'm talking about.

I really lucked out on Liara and got the critical dialog on my first playthrough, so I was litterally playing through the game again before I learned from my GF how hard it was to get that dialog. I'd say I don't know what they were thinking, but I really suspect it comes back to their efforts to jumpstart their literary and comic book careers by force feeding their suplimental material to anyone who wants the background to make sense. In other news: they have failed expanded universes forever.

Transgressions like thermal clips and the Vorcha being introduced are fine, clips for shooter focus - Vorcha could be anyone, even Batarian for their immunity to the plague (remember it is plausible because as it is an ME2 introduced and therefore ME2 editable story device) so they don't matter either. TIM, Collector's and Human Reaper are unacceptable.

There is a way to have the whole racial themed reapers in the franchise. It could even have been a very neat element. Somehow Bioware took this concept and extracted the most idiotic implementation possible.

Speaking of Human Reaper - I think BioWare tried to copy Star Wars a bit too much. General rule: as soon as a question is answered the question loses weight. As in: Why are the Reaper's killing us? Uh... to reproduce how reliant on the organic life they hate they are...

Okay, you've piqued my curiosity here. I'm not sure what the relationship between human reapers and Star Wars is...

I could go on but I shall summarise and save further talk for another time.

ME2 is a blemish on potentially brilliant game that ME1 left all the doors wide open for. I can handle the series of three wouldn't have every details mapped out, but I am writing a sequence of seven books at the moment (or plotting more accurately) and know exactly the characters that will appear in each, the story and plot in each. THAT is how this should have been done.

The really sad thing is, I kinda believe that they did have a plan originally. I've snarked and equated them to David Lynch and Chris Carter who had no idea what they were doing long term. But, I really suspect there was a long term plan originally. It's just that they've tried to "improve" it and in the process fouled up a lot of details.

EDIT: Well, wow, I have just exceeded my wildest expectations for botching quote tags up one side and down the other. My appologies.

 

[Kurokami]

In my opinion there's only a certain amount of new content a sequel to a game could possibly introduce realistically. Like in Mass Effect 1, how come we never heard of Asari Justicars? Or Omega? Or the Bloodpack or either crime syndicates? Or Cerberus and the Illusive man? Being a fan of both games, I'm surprised no one asked this before. Comments?

There's also several years difference, is there not? Perhaps more as we don't know the exact time difference between when Shephard got killed and when the first game ended. (I haven't played the first game, I'm just making the assumption here)

 

[darth gditch]

I must add that there was a lot to the universe added by the two novels. Ascension introduced the Illusive Man and some of his other ops.

 

[Bat Vader]

The Illusive Man does say that information is his specialty. He isn't just going to send a message and hope it doesn't get intercepted by the alliance or a different race. If that was the case he wouldn't live up to his name.

Cerberus was in ME1 so it isn't like they just showed in ME2. Plus, you are playing from Shepard's perspective. He doesn't know who the Illusive man is. He just knows about Cerberus.

 

[CAW4]

how come we never heard of Asari Justicars?

They're usually only in asari space, remember? You never go there, and you'd never have to deal with them, so why bother, plus most humans wouldn't know about them.

Or Omega?

Because it's deep in the Terminus Systems, where you were basicly forbidden to go during the first game, and, while evil, usually kept to itself, so why bother?

Or the Bloodpack or either crime syndicates?

Again, Terminus Systems

Or Cerberus and the Illusive man?

They were the main point of a series of side quests, starting with a dead platoon killed by a Thresher Maw.

Being a fan of both games, I'm surprised no one asked this before. Comments?

Because you're not a good fan?

 

[archvile93]

Bioware lied to us ...

WORDS, WORDS, WORDS ...

That was all Bioware BSing out their ass.

or as it's also known ... literary license.

so you never heard of the Illusive Man in ME1. that doesn't mean he didn't exist. the same could be said of the justicars, the blue suns, omega, the omega 4 relay (seems odd no one noticed a red relay amongst all of the bluish-white ones though), any of your new team mates, the collectors, branches or factions of cerberus, factions in the Geth, etc.

stories evolve and change -- deal with it. and at least there is some continuity between ME1 and ME2. the same can't be said for many other se(pre)quels out there (CAN YOU HEAR ME LUCAS!?!).

Everybody noticed the omega 4 relay. Nobody uses it though because those who go through have a habit of not returning. Up until the sequal, it wasn't really important so why would anyone bring it up?

 

[Shapoolaman]

I consider all of your points, but isn't it unrealistic to encounter them all at once?

No, not really. There are probably thousands of other merc groups in the ME universe and even more random space stations, organizations and characters etc. We only encounter a few in the game because those are the only one's directly related to and entangled with the ME2 plot. Its just the tip of the iceberg.