PC Gamers get another slap in the chops , no mention of PC demo for Bulletstorm

[omega 616]

snip

Being popular does not prove its quality in any way. Runescape is immensely popular even still, doesn't say anything about its god-awful gameplay.

They work just good enough for someone who hasn't played FPS games with a mouse. In other words, it's good enough for as long as you have nothing to compare it to. If not, like the other guy, have fun explaining to me why all console shooters have to go for aim-assists and some of them even the lengths of auto-aim.

Console RTS games work, too. Is that what you're going to say next? Listen, just admit each platform has its own strengths and weaknesses and stop brushing everything off as an opinion. Me saying fighting games work just fine on PCs would sound just as ridiculous as you saying this now.

I have played TF2 among other games (doom, quake, unreal, far cry etc) for a few hundred hours on the PC and countless hours on loads of consoles, I much, much much prefer the console. Granted I am not a 60 words a minute kind of typer, so I am not that quick with a keyboard and even though I have a razer mouse, I still spray like minigun on a helicopter.

If you got a 360 controller stuck into a PC, fighting and racing games could be on PC.

By the by the gameplay in runescape is simplistic not god awful, just 'cos you don't have a million buttons around your screen for hotkeys doesn't make it god awful.

Reading your arguments about button mice having more buttons, you haven't seen the naga, have you?

It also takes fuck all time to jump from analogue stick to button and back again, movement is never really impaired 'cos the directional buttons are almost never used (select noob tube is the only one that springs to mind). All you are losing is the ability to look/aim for the split second it takes to jump/crouch/swap weapon or reload.

If you jump you can spin before you hit the ground, proving it is that quick. Crouch leaves you unable to aim for half a second and swap weapon/reload there is no point in aiming anyway 'cos you can't fire.

 

[moretimethansense]

snip

When developing for consoles, you're developing for a controller and when developing for PCs you're developing for mouse and keyboard. People with gamepads connected to their PCs are in the minority, so are the people with mouses and keyboards on consoles. Ergo, PCs - mouse and keyboard, consoles - controllers.

Did you not see the ?
And functionally Keyboards are identical to pads for Fighting games the ony difference is comfort.
I've never fot people that use sticks in figthing games myself.

Console RTS games suck. End of story.

Oh?
And I suppose you are the ultimate authoroty on the quality of games then?
Forgive my lord for I knew not what I said!
You are an arrogant, elitist prig.

Halo Wars, which is touted to be the best console RTS is a piece of crap compared to any decent PC RTS. If you're going to build an RTS on a console, it's going to lack both micro and macro management. ... The genre has to be (and has been) made simpler in order to even work for consoles. If this does not mean being limited ergo worse at the genre, you're fucking blind and let's end the deal right there.

At what point did simple come to meand bad?
Was there a meeting I wasn't aware of?
Yes they'd be simpler, they'd have to be, but that in no way makes them bad.

As for different control schemes, please. You're not going to magically go around the pathetic possibilities of an analog stick and the oh so few buttons which don't leave room for hotkeys and such versus mouse and keyboard.

There is so much fail here I'm not sure where to start.
First "pathetic possibilities"? Fuck you, that's really all I can say about that, claming an entire species of inputdevices are pathetic?
Fuck you.

"Hotkeys" you're thinking in line with a PC RTS, use you're imaginatiion, When I say a different control scheme I mean a fucking different control scheme, not a repackeged PC scheme.

I've already brought up some points on mouse&keyboard in fps games in my pretty recent comments on this page, read those. I'm never arguing preference, just the efficiency and limits of, in this case, the control schemes. Those are not preferential.

What efficiancy? what fucking limits?
In nearly every game I've played on the PC they have used few enough keys that it could easily translate, and the few that use more are needlessly complicated, Why the Hell would you need a seperate key for high jump vs normal jump for instance?

And if you honestly believe auto-aim is there because people just bought into the flames of PC gamers, the fuck are you smoking? You want to honestly tell me that developers, who actually create and test their games have put it there because of some groundless shit they saw on a forum? Get real.

As I said I turn it off when possible and don't see a big difference between the two, I personally think that if everyone has such trouble using a stick either the stick in wuestion sucks, or they have poor manual dexterity/
Auto aim is not necessary, smoother aiming and or a "precise aim" button might be appropriate however.

Also, the only reason anyone would ever prefer a console controller over a mouse and keyboard on an FPS game is if they've grown up with it. Or they have some sort of a Stephen-Hawking'esque disease that prevents them from moving their hands properly,

Or if they genuinly prefer it, Some people just find a pad more comfortable, fuck you for telling them they just have shit hands.

but then again, that's the minority. Having grown up with both I see the advantages and disatvantages of both. Don't call me biased, please.

You quite blatently are,you are denying the very possibility that someone that prefers pads could have grown up with both, be good with both and still disagree with you without having a deformity, you are biased.

I've pointed out way more than enough times there are genres the consoles are better at. It would be hypocritical and blind to almost the point of bigotry to say they can only better or the same at everything.

I never said they were the same I said they were equal.

 

[moretimethansense]

colossal snip

My posts eveade logic?
you ignore the very possibility that you could be wrong, or even not 100% right.

Forced to limit itself, what fucking limitations?
It works fine where has it been limited.
I never said a console could do RTSs better I said they could do them, period.
changing the controls, the method, making a different type of RTS but you are too set in your ways to even consider that anything other than a standard RTS can be good.

With practice I could learn whistle the entiraty of Beethovens 4th, but When I can listen to it on cd why would I need to?

You ARE elitist, it may not disprove your points but it does point out that you are missing mine.

I said flat out, most people are clumsy, many pads aren't that precise, I've never had a problem so I think it may be exagerated.

*straight face* yes, yes it would, probebly more people would miss but it would work, give me one irrefutable reason why it wouldn't.

 

[moretimethansense]

snip

Okay, one reason. Even in slow paced FPS games, console players are clumsy and inaccurate as shit. Played BF:BC2 on a PS3, believe me, the coordination of those people is hilarious. If you make the games any faster it would be beyond pathetic.

I'd just like to say that most players are shit regardless of platform, I forget what the term for that is, so and so's theory 90& of everything is crap.

As for RTS, I mean seriously. Just two posts ago you said consoles can't do RTS the way PCs can. Now you say it isn't limited by the platform. Fucking logic man, how does that work? Again, there is nothing consoles can do that PCs can't, and shitloads of things PCs can that consoles can't. Do I really need to spell this out for you? Things like "Consoles suck at selecting units", "consoles suck at hotkeys" etc?

The genre isn't limited by the platform, the control scheme is, I've said it plainly enough multiple times now, make a type of RTS that is desinged exclusivly for consoles, one that is made without the mouse or hotkeys in mind.

And yes a PC could do that as well but we are not talking about what PCs CAN do but what consoles CAN'T, and I maintain there is no genre of game that can't work on a console.

there is nothing consoles can do that PCs can't

Play games without installing?
Though that likley won't be around for much longer.

and shitloads of things PCs can that consoles can't

like what?
beyond upgrading hardware I can't think of anything.

 

[moretimethansense]

snip

Are we talking gameplay here or are we not?

Of course it can work on consoles, it can't work anywhere near adequately for anyone considering themselves versed in the RTS genre.

The only - only - reason that consoles have to look for different control schemes is because they can't do what's proven to be a perfect system to control stuff. And console RTS games are only being made because consoles have a bigger and less discriminating audience. Believe me, no sane developer would choose developing an RTS on a console knowing as they are of the severe restrictions caused by the controller, if they weren't pushed to it by publishers or simply greed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutal_Legend

Thugh there are arguments to be made against Tim Schafer's sanity.

Again you keep mentioning restrictions, but keep thinking in terms of a mouse and keyboard, above is just one example of an RTS desinged with a pad in mind, you can say you don't like it but the fact of the matter is it works, and I can think of other ways to make an RTS that would work well on a console.

 

[moretimethansense]

snip

Brutal Legend was less of an RTS game than it was an action-adventure game. You could call Overlord an RTS game, too, if we're getting to that sort of thinking.

Actually it was desinged to be a multiplayer RTS, and they were told to put a single player campiagn in later, it is an RTS, though I'll admit it wasn't marketed that way.

As is overlord, granted these two are more of a blend, but it is one way of mmaking a consle RTS, not the only way though.

 

[omega 616]

snip?

Well, just look at it ...

Spoiler

How did you guess it was an MMO mouse?

 

[moretimethansense]

snip

Okay then. I never said incorporating RTS elements into an RPG/adventure game is impossible, I said making a straight up RTS is - a good one, anyways. Those games aren't RTS games, please stop fooling yourself.

I think you are the one fooling your self, I pretty explixitly said they were a blend of genre, and as I said it's not the only way, and who the hell put you in charge of deciding what is a "good" RTS anyway?
I played C&C and C&C Red alert ond the PS1 and thoughroly enjoyed them.

 

[GeneticallyModifiedDucks]

And once again, the PC gaming crowds sense of entitlement is kicking right in. Seriously, you didn't hear all the console gamers up in arms when the PC got that MoH beta.

That's probably because the PS3 and 360 got it too. PS3 first, then PC, and finally 360. Everybody got a chance to play it.

 

[Numachuka]

How did I know this was going to turn into a PC vs Console war...

 

[internetzealot1]

snip

1.Wrong, play with a higher sensitivity. With the highest sensitivity, you can turn around about 10 times in a 10cm diameter space (somewhere in the middle, 5 turn arounds in 10 centimeters. Good enough for any situation). Also, repositioning a mouse takes literally 1/5 of a second and with said higher sensitivity you can always do it while out of combat.

The only example - ever - of controller turning being better is something requiring you to simply turn indefinitely. Whether you hold that as a plus depends entirely on your ability to imagine bogus advantages.

Let's say you told me why aim-assist exists on console FPS games and concluded that the aiming is just that bad.

2 and 3. Okay...

So, a hypothetical point that suddenly ignores the huge, gaping problem of console aiming and clunky coordination and has probably never been used at all? Wow, you got me there. Tell me one thing, how easy is it to keep the aim on an enemy's head while simply moving sideways? After that, actually imagine yourself on that catwalk. Do you honestly want to tell me anyone would be able to walk across it while constantly turning and keeping his sights on the enemy (let's even say a static enemy, otherwise it's beyond impossible), having to adjust his movement accordingly without falling off? Seriously? Until such things become commonplace in FPS games, the difference is indeed negligible.

Movement being adjustable, meh. I forgot that because of how irrelevant it is. Holding it midway is not a good alternative for running and all the way through for sprinting, and the option to walk slowly as it is now is simply meaningless.

You forget one thing, the joystick renders 4 of your fingers completely unusable and 4 more only stuck with one action. The only fingers that don't usually get actions assigned to them are the thumb and pinky of your mouse hand, but that's only usually. I'm pretty sure you can get a mouse with buttons on both sides which reduces the unused finger count to zero (if not, there absolutely are those with 2 side buttons on the left side for your thumb) and extends the amount of options for controls even further. Which means that even if the only option those 3 fingers have was to be stuck to the directional keys, mouse&keyboard would still be in front.

As it happens, the movement fingers can be used for a number of different actions each, and the better your skills with a keyboard, the better you can utilize them. One other thing you forgot is there's a thumb and a pinky on my left hand aswell, which also can perform multiple actions.

And coming back to availability, there is no way for you around it. I already have more options of buttons without even endangering myself in any way, and if I want to push a button with my 4th, middle and index finger, I only lose one direction for a split second instead of all directions and it takes less time to do it. Basically the same amount it takes for a skilled typist to jump from Z to A - almost no time at all.

Using keys like '8' or 'P' is frankly something you shouldn't be concerned with. I have more options without even lifting my directional-key-fingers, as little problems as that creates.

Rumble is useless from a gameplay perspective. Nothing to jump around about when your controls are bad.

Looking at your arguements, then looking at my counter arguements, then looking at your counter counter arguments, its pretty apparent that this will devolve into a "Is too!" "Is not!" "Is too" "Is not!" type of debate pretty quick. We'll just have to do what all PC and console gamers should have done by now: agree to disagree.

BTW, I turn auto-aim off for every console game that allows it. It usually hurts more than it helps.

 

[Sn1P3r M98]

Well, I own an Xbox 360 as well as PC, so it'll not set me back too much, though I would prefer to try it out on PC.

 

[SomebodyNowhere]

No demo means I'm likely not playing it until there is some kind of big price drop, but that's good over all since I was only slightly interested in the title in the first place.