penny arcade equates used games to piracy

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StriderShinryu

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Furburt said:
The barter and sale of used goods has been going on since civilization itself. DVD companies don't purge used DVD shops, neither do books, art, anything. Only videogaming.

Apart from online features, there's not much different between selling your mistaken drunken purchase of Glee season 1 than there is selling on a game you've played to death.
Of course the company that makes Glee doesn't care as much about you selling your copy of the Glee DVD set, that's only part of their revenue stream for the show. After licensing, selling ad space, selling tie in products (like that Glee Madonna CD you may have also bought), pursuing syndication deals, etc. they don't take a huge hit off of one potentially lost new copy sale. It's a similar situation with movies, music, books, etc. They all have various alternate revenue streams to supplement new copy sales.

Game companies make their money off new copy sales and.. umm.. well.. that's it.

You're quite right in saying that game prices should be lowered. Other options are possible too like a better appreciation of value depreciation such that prices scaled downward based on age and demand across the board. Also, I think we can all agree that having companies that exist nearly solely off of used game sales should have a licensing fee or something similar such that used game sales do generate revenue for the originating companies.

You're wrong, however, in making a direct comparison between the videogame industry and other entertainment industries.
 

CLime

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migo said:
I think this depends. If a new game costs $45 and the used one costs $42, then buying used pretty much is worse than piracy, you were willing to spend the money on the game at full price, but saved a few bucks and all the profit went to someone else.
No. I don't know if you work for a living or not, but there are people out there to whom $3 does mean something. If you buy one game a month for 14 months, that's a whole extra game you could afford by buying used.

The publishers aren't running a charity, why should the consumer treat them like one?
 

Wolfram23

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I can see why a publisher would say that, in their eyes, pirating is the same as used sales. In either case, they get nothing. Not that I care about the publisher.

Obviously it's not really the same thing. Many people have been trying to make examples of how it's different. But let me just point out some other things that seem to be overlooked by posters here is that in pirating, there is no transfer of funds. None. Sure, many people are playing the "same" copy of a game, but nobody saw any money in any of that except possibly the first potential purchaser who cracked the game. In used sales, there is a transfer of money, and it's all legal, but only the reseller sees that money. It's still one game sale to the publisher, and it's still the same copy of a game being played by multiple people.

I'm of the mind that if I had no intention to buy a game at all, I don't mind pirating. Someone above mentioned something silly about eating cake but not wanting cake - I think that's a bad annalogy. Let me make a better one: I don't like Orange Crush but I'm thirsty. There's a Coke machine and I have $1, but then a friend offers me an Orange Crush that he swiped from his little brothers birthday party. We both get our pops
 

Asehujiko

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Rath709 said:
So people who buy second hand cars are in fact car pirates?
Yes, those dirty scumbags are the reason car companies don't have enough money to mass produce hydrogen and solar energy cars, they are ruining it for everybody.

Also, we should raze houses after people move out because the next person to live there are just pirating the architect's work.
 

Iffat Nur

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How much do I have to say this *facepalm*

I DON'T PLAY ONLINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why the bloody fucking hell should I pay 60 dollars of a game that, is most situations, im only getting 40% of the content (dont even talk about Halo or Call of Duty). I will pony up my money, but stop punishing those who only play offline by giving mostly mp games but then demanding 60 dollars for it.

One might argue that if I were not to pirate, buy used, or rent, they can lower the prices because I am paying them 60. But like I said, I cant exactly afford a (say I was buying Gears of War) 30$ game for 60$. At the very least, I can pony up 50$, which atleast feeels right.
 

Sayvara

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rembrandtqeinstein said:
The basic argument is if you pirate the publisher doesn't see a dime, if you buy used the publisher doesn't see a dime.

I would go one step further and say used games are WORSE than piracy
Pretty damned dumb argument.

Piracy is: doing stuff with the game that the game owner doesn't want you to. Plain and simple.

Now you might say "The game owner(*) doesn't want you to sell it on, so doing that is piracy". That's where I slap him across the face and tell him to go suck a neutron star becuase that is a condition that he - even as an owner - is not entitled to make. That which I own - which is first a bit of plastic with a bitwise copy of the game, and second: a license to play with that - is mine. The disc and the license to play with what's on it is mine and the game owner does not have the right to tell me I cannot sell that on.

Do know I have no sympathy for pirates, especially the whiny kind that gets all upset when they get cracked down upon. They are like shoplifters complaining about security tags and shop guards chasing their arses down and making them have to take responsibility for their actions.

But selling a game on is not a crime because it is within my rights as a consumer and a property owner and that the game owner cannot say diddley squat about.

/S

(*) Perhaps "game owner" should ge explained here: the game owner is the guy that entitled to say what people may or may not do with this stuff. That's what ownership is... the right to put up terms for how other poeple may or may not use the stuff, like for instance "Give me 39.99 USD and I'll give you the right to play with it" (that's called a license).
 

Kagim

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Sgt. Sykes said:
Kagim said:
Bullshit, the game industry was ALWAYS about money. It was never about anything else.
No dude. When small indie times like Epic, id or Apogee (to name a few known ones) started back in the 80's, they weren't there for the money. They wanted to make games and then found out they can make money. Not every one has of course.

The problem with economics is this: something is good and makes money -> it attracts more people and investors who want to make more money -> the good part is continuously diminishing.

And that is happening.

As for the games, well not everyone wants to sit through tens of hours of dialog in a Bioware RPG to have their money worth. What if I want to play a decent shooter? Games in the Half-Life era were easily 30 hours long, now most games are 5 hours long. And even then, the good ones are scarce.

Anyway what I keep forgetting to stress is I'm talking about the PC mostly. On a PC, the situation with innovation, game length, variability, demos and everything else I mentioned is terrible.
Sorry, i shouldn't have said "not anything else", but ultimately a huge motivation was money. They didn't start a company with the intent to only bring joy and happiness to all the children. They started a company to make money off something they enjoyed doing.

They enjoy there job, but to think that money was not a significant goal is silly. So i apologize for saying soemthing a tad extreme, and rightly stupid.

I remember apogee, Commander keen, Cosmo, Duke nukem, Bio-Meance, Halloween harry. Fun games, but not exactly ground breakingly different from other games they were producing and other games people were making at the time. They weren't really innovative in design.. In fact I am pretty sure Bio-Menace and Duke Nukem shared the same gun sprite. I might be wrong it's been awhile.

As for decent shooter? Killzone 2 has given me more then 20 hours of gameplay on its single player campaign alone, Resistance i think i played through six or seven times. The games i felt were honestly that good. I'd mention Deadspace and RE5 but people have thrown fits at me before about how "Those aren't shooters!!!!" Not saying you will, but not willing to put up with it from anyone reading this.

The problem with economics is this: something is good and makes money -> it attracts more people and investors who want to make more money -> the good part is continuously diminishing.
The problem with that equation is it seems to ignore the fact that consumer ultimately drive the machine. People buy what they like. If what is mostly out now is selling the most then that means people are enjoying what they are getting. When the good part is diminished then people want soemthing new, or just stop buying video games entirely.

I do not accept that "People are stupid and buy what they are told!". If the audience was generally unhappy with what was being sold, sales would drop.

Finally, i don't really find you can complain about lack of different games on the PC.

http://www.kongregate.com/

Enjoy. Tons of indie developers making games that are free to play forever. As well by playing those games you guarantee developers will get a slice of the advertisement action, and maybe a little bit of a spotlight to one day hit the big leagues.
 

Kagim

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Wolfram01 said:
I'm of the mind that if I had no intention to buy a game at all, I don't mind pirating. Someone above mentioned something silly about eating cake but not wanting cake - I think that's a bad annalogy. Let me make a better one: I don't like Orange Crush but I'm thirsty. There's a Coke machine and I have $1, but then a friend offers me an Orange Crush that he swiped from his little brothers birthday party. We both get our pops

The problem with your analogy is that the older brother took the pop from his little brothers party. So either his parents, the owners of said pop, don't give a shit and thus its okay.

Or.

The parents do give a shit and the only reason why he is not in trouble is because he never got caught.

Even if it wasn't from his parents but a random third party, just because he isn't in trouble since nobody saw him doesn't make the action right.

Which would be the "as long as nobody sees me it's not illegal" idea. Which isn't exactly a good stance to adopt.



So, once again.

Out of curiosity, because i would never ever buy a Fresca should I be able to just take bottles of the junk for free? After all if they never gave me it for free i would never have purchased it to make up for it?
The cake was to point out the logical problem of "I have no interest at all in a game i am currently playing".
 

Lightslei

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Feb 18, 2010
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Here's why I think the argument is stupid.

I can go on amazon and pull up a few games from memory that are listed as over $100 new, and $5 used ($20 for very good condition).

Why would I spend an extra $80 for a novelty that I don't even know if I'm going to LIKE.

As for analogies it's like saying if I buy a house, I have to knock it down and start over instead of just doing repairs otherwise it's stealing from construction workers.
 

mgs16925

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Mar 28, 2008
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Why are so many people upset about game companies wanting to make money? It's sort of the whole point; they give us an entertaining product and we give them some money. If they charge more than we want to pay, we don't give them money and we don't get the game.

The comic was about the hypocrisy of people who buy used complaining about one-user content as unfair to their customers, not the aftermarket in general. Since someone who bought it used never gave the games company any money, they are not technically customers and said company has no reason at all to care about their opinions. From the game company's perspective the aftermarket is just another way for people to use their product without paying them for it. That's why these setups exist: they want to encourage people to give the money they are paying for the good and service (hosting online games costs money after all) to them, the people that produced it, instead of someone else. It doesn't affect pirates of course, they just steal the extra content as well.
 

Hateren47

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I can see why developers and publishers equate the used game market to piracy as it's all the same to them. They aren't getting paid for it and an I think that they are right to add stuff like VIP codes to their games. For old console games that can be hard or impossible to find unopened it's a different thing.

I buy my games on Steam so if its full price I'm getting ripped and if it's on sale I'm a few bucks ahead, but the publishers are still getting their money and can fund new games, and I think it evens out in the end.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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PhunkyPhazon said:
And where did this sudden hatred of used games come from, anyways? I don't remember people debating this a year ago.
It's been fairly big in the last couple of years. It's become an issue for two reasons as far as I can tell:

1. The increasingly corperate game industry is not content with it's billions of dollars in profits and has decided to turn it's attention towards things like used games due to the fact that some of the more reality detached bean counters believe that each and every used game sold would be another new game sold that would be going directly into their coffers if the used game market was out there.

2. The increasingly corperate game industry has realized that digital distribution is a wonderful way for them to make even more money. The big problem to this is that it has next to no benefits for the consumers. They get tight control over their products, and to cut out all the espense of shipping, packaging, manufacturing, and similar things. Consumers lose having their disc in hand and the abillity to install and play a 20 year old game if the desire strikes them. Something which is increasingly anathema to an industry that has realized how much money can be made by reselling the same products to a nostolgia crowd. Did the download service you bought from stop supporting the game, or go out of business 10 years ago? No problem, we'll now sell you a new copy of what you already paid for....

Used games being one of the major obstacles to this because that same power that lets someone replay a game by holding onto their disc, also means that people can re-sell that game used. A lot of people get by on playing the high prices by simply trading in games they are done with so someone else can pick them up cheaply down the road. The abillity to trade in your games to cut the costs being one of the major advantages to physical media. Kill the used game trade, and the obstacle of trade in incentives also goes away.


At least that is how I see things.

At any rate, with the game industry on a major push, it's also investing a lot of money to hire game journalists and gaming personalities to promote it's agenda. Sort of like how the industry buys game reviews, which has lead to things like the whole "Gerstmann scandal". Like any kind of media saturation when the target audience is bombarded they gradually begin to think that the point of view expressed is right because *everyone* seems to be saying that, and so do all the statistics and such that those people tend to put forward.

The game industry has gotten big enough where the critics and personalities that had been keeping them in check through criticism, have arguably become their weapon due to the power of the allmighty dollar. After all if your in an industry worth billions, you can afford to pay some well liked nerd so much money his head will spin, and turn him into your mouthpiece to convert other game nerds.

At one time "Penny Arcade" was a sort of edgy, irreverant fringe thing, but today it's become a big business that still tries and banks off of that reputation and the personalities involved. While still funny, it isn't what it used to be, and things like "PAX" and how big and industry supported they are sort of demonstrate that. It only makes sense that the guys in "Penny Arcade" would be ultimatly siding with the industry on things like this, as opposed to the best interests of the gaming public as a whole.

I argue various facets of this entire thing all the time (and occasionally exchange posts with The Escapist's own John Funk in debate), but you'll notice that Penny Arcade is invoking the image of the "poor game developer" who needs your money. Getting beyond the entire question of how much that "poor guy" may or may not make (which will see no resolution here, speaking from previous experience) the industry itself is worth billions. Now that it's rich and powerful we're supposed to feel sorry for it? If the game devs are so poor give them some of the money from the "media blitz" fund instead of using it to whine about how pathetic they are. What's more, developers rarely make any money off their games directly, rather they get paid as the games are being designed. The people who make the money are the producers, they give money to the developers who get paid from the production budget to produce the game which the producer then sells in an effort to make more money than he paid the developers. Now, in some cases things are a bit differant where a developer borrows money to make a game, or is large and corperate enough (as is increasingly common) where it acts as it's own producer. Borrowing money is always a risky proposition, you roll the dice you take your chances, and if your self-producing, that right there means your rolling in so much bloody dough to begin with that you can't expect me to take you seriously. I mean a company that can invest a hundred million dollars in a project isn't exactly on the "Les Miserabes" pity scale. :p

All the differant forms of investment have been going on this long, and the industry has been booming. The used game market simply represents what some see as an untapped source of more money (if they can kill it), and/or an inconvient obstacle in the way of things like "dighital distribution" and all the cash goodness that could bring if pesky consumers would just stop worrying about their own best interests and brainlessly fork over the money like good cashbags.

That's how I see it at any rate, and why it's been a fairly recent development.

In the end today's game industry isn't just about making a profit, but about greedily sucking every dime it can out of customers. Pretty much everything it does or develops from DLC, to server fees, is all a matter of how they can exploit the customer today. Especially when customers don't look back on things that have always been provided for free (like multiplayer) and put their foot down on "why should we have to pay for this now?, why was maintaining a server not an issue for the last couple of decades?".

I for one have no real guilt over calling it how I see it, and I figure the more we gamers sit back and take it, the worse it's going to get. I am seriously hoping that before too long people wise up and start not buying games (no matter how good looking) until things improve in general, and the industry backs waaaay off on issues like used game sales.

Right now the only industry source I trust is the fictional "Ryan Quickbender" I mean he's more honest than even Penny Arcade at least, starting his commentary "Greetings Cashbags".
 

bad rider

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Dec 23, 2007
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Tabascofish said:
Boris Goodenough said:
We are aware what drives them, what we disagree on is the reasoning and ethics behind it.
If you buy a used car from a friend, would that be stealing from the car company?
Yeah I understand that, I was referring to the two posters above me who used the "well someone else bought it already, so devs already got money from it" argument.

I don't consider buying used games or cars stealing per se, but it does prevent money from a new purchase from getting to the manufacturer. Gamestop marks up trade-ins by 200%. That's an insane amount of profit, none of which is going back to the developers. Would you mark up a used car by 200%? I don't think anyone in their right mind would buy it if you did.
Only on what they buy it for. (aka piss all.) Lets face it ridiculous mark ups are a fact of the trading world. Do you think that a designer fashion gives a cotton farmer his fair share of the new range of tops everyone is wearing?
 

Lucane

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Mar 24, 2008
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So how do they feel about people renting games cheaper than pre-owned (and no profit to the makers after the renter buys the copy right?).