penny arcade equates used games to piracy

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icame

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Used games are worse because the majority of gamers don't seem to realize that the maker of the game makes no money from the sale. There mindset is 'This isn't hurting the games industry because im still buying it.'

But people also must realize that some people actually help pay for their new games by trading in their older ones. Them not being able to get that money for the trade in means more time to save up the money for game, and THAT means more time to save up for the next game.

In layman's terms,they wouldn't be able to buy as many games as they would be able to due to not being able to trade in older games.

Oh and People still will be able to get older games, and sell the used games they have, but it would have to be through the internet(Ebay, amazon, Kijiji.) Which is a much less friendly way, but probably more profitable, way of selling your games.
 

GothmogII

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Gildan Bladeborn said:
Right of resale, legality of used games trading, or the 'morality' of purchasing games used? None of those are the real issue - the problem with used game sales as an industry is precisely that it creates a parallel economy luring budget conscious game aficionados away from first sale goods. Used cars, used books, used furniture, used basically anything else - those are not vicious parasitic competition existing as a blight upon their respective industries, and the reason for that is simple: Used physical products are not as good as new. Obviously this varies on a case by case basis, but there is always an element of risk or some form of wear, damage, additional mileage, loss of warranty, etc.

Used video games are simply collections of data enclosed on physical media - so long as the media is in a readable state, the data is completely identical in every vital way to that of a new product sitting pristine on a shelf. When you typically buy used goods, you "get what you paid for" - well with used video games, you get what they paid for (they being the folks who buy new), except yours was cheaper. Unless you care about largely irrelevant trappings like manuals and boxes, you are receiving an identical product that costs less money.

All those folks who buy used games now and thus feel inclined to get outraged at being labeled as the functional equivalent of pirates, or compelled to yell at game publishers to "stop whining, used sales exist for everything else!" are missing the point that the products publishers and developers of console titles are competing with are their own titles, identical in every meaningful way, being sold by companies that exist precisely to sell those identical products in a way that does not net those publishers and developers any money; companies that in all likelihood will not even have a new copy of the game to sell to you, should you want one - their entire business model revolves around razor-thin product margins and relentlessly pushing used sales.

Gamestop is a parasitic parallel economy - they prey on the industry that provides them with their products by re-purchasing them for a pittance from customers and then turning around and selling them for almost as much as the original price, which they do while the game is brand spanking new; comparing them to a used car dealership is woefully off the mark. Used car emporiums are competition for new car sales only in the sense that both of them revolve around selling you a car - new cars and used cares are not the same. Used video games and new video games are, or at least they always were in the past. This is not about publishers being greedy, it's about finding a way to compete with the retailers who have become their direct competitors by turning an entire generation of folks with money in hand and a willingness to spend it into non-customers.

Seen in that light, things like online pass and the like make perfect sense - the people complaining about them? Yeah, those aren't actually the customers of the companies implementing them. If they piss you off and you solemnly vow never to buy anything from them again and actually go through with that vow, but you always bought that company's games used? They have lost no money whatsoever from you, you were NEVER their customer in the first place. It doesn't even matter if the people buying their games used now all decide to stop, that's just money they were never going to see not ending up in the hands of the likes of Gamestop; unless implementing such measures somehow leads to a reduction in new game sales, they have nothing to lose - either they get some money from a huge segment of the market that has never provided them any income before, or they receive the same amount of money from that market segment ($0). You cannot make less money than you already do from used game sales as a video game publisher.

So if you don't like having features held hostage or removed from your games because you didn't buy them new, well that's just too bad for you - you're not a paying customer of the folks who made those decisions, and catering to the desires of people who do not give you any money isn't good business sense.

You have clearly never bought a damaged used game before. I bought two used copies of Jade Empire once (long after it had been released of course), the first had some disc damage, and while I could play to a certain extent, it would occasionally crash or corrupt saves.

It's a little disingenuous to infer that games don't degrade with use like anything else, as they most certainly do. Mainly mechanical wear, but also from being handled incorrectly or left sitting somewhere it shouldn't have. Not to mention that a game can still be damaged and still 'work', but it all depends on how well it's taken care of, and frankly, that applies to anything second-hand, with value determined by the quality of the item.

Secondly, ignoring that, even a worn book is still readable with all it's pages, a slightly rusted kettle with the electrics still working or what have you, so, again, -what- differentiates games?

As for the devs not getting any money out of the deal, I understand that, and how it's not a good thing, however, that's -their- problem, and something -they- should be working out with the retailers, not taking it out on the people buying the games, like they oddly seem to always end up doing.
 

Outright Villainy

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Do I feel bad about buying used games?
Not. Even. Slightly.
Maybe if full Priced games weren't ?60 a pop, because when it's a choice between that or eating for the week, then I'm not going to buy it at all. I'll buy a game in a steam sale though. The reason the second hand market is so huge in the games industry compared to other ones is because of the huge rising costs. And yes, I'd be more than willing to give up those super shiny graphics if it meant more economical games.
 

-Samurai-

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This topic again? Here we go.

Buying used is not the same as pirating.

How they are different:
Pirating means to take one legal copy of something, violate the copyright and unlawfully copy the product to distribute.

Buying and selling used games consists of one person purchasing a legal copy of a game, selling it, then another person legally buying the same used, legal game. The only differences are the place in which it was bought, and the amount it costs.

Why buying used does not always equal a lost sale:

Lets face it, if you can get something for cheap, you're not going to buy it for full price. Many people refuse to pay full price for a brand new game. They'd rather wait to find a used copy.

This means that they weren't going to buy the game new anyway. What happens when they don't buy the game new? The developer gets no money because there was no sale.

Why people that oppose used game sales are hypocrites:

There is no chance at all that everything you own is brand new. Your car, your appliances, your clothes. Some of it was bought used. Did you contribute to Ford when you bought that 2002 Taurus from the guy with the creepy eye that lives around the corner? No.

Your house wasn't built by you. It was built, sold, and resold for possibly a hundred years. You're living in that house and the person that built it isn't getting any money for it.

You have borrowed things from your friends. Don't lie. You have. Music, movies, games, their car, their clothes. If you're opposed to used games, you're opposed to borrowing and lending. When you borrow a game from a friend, you're playing it without contributing money to the developer.

Pirating is not theft. Pirating is copyright infringement.

Buying used games is not theft. Buying used games in not copyright infringement. Buying used games is a perfectly legal way to acquire legal games.
 

The Random One

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They do have a point, though. If you buy a game used, you're not a customer of the dev, you're a customer of Gamestop. So you're supporting them, and giving them your money. Gamespot doesn't exist in my country but from second hand accounts I don't think most people would like that.

That said, buying used games from people isn't anything like piracy to me. That's the same twisted RIAA logic that says you can't give a CD you didn't like to a friend who does because they didn't sell you the disc, they sold you an untransferrable license.

That said, digital distribution is only going to grow as a market and it buries second hand sales whether it's done well or not, unless you're going to burn the installer to a disc and sell them on a Bombay street market.
 

Kagim

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rembrandtqeinstein said:
CLime said:
The better question is, why should we care?

Yes, the existence of the secondary market probably means that game developers make less money. So what? The developers and publishers are hurt a little, the consumer benefits a lot. That's called "efficiency," and it's a good thing. Morality has nothing to do with it.
If morality has nothing to do with it then from a purely practical perspective you might as well pirate.
Once again.

Nooooo....

Downloading a product for free off the internet, and likely uploading it is part of a chain of replicating and distributing said product in an illegal format.

The act of downloading an illegal reproduction of a game, or movie, or music, off the internet is not the same as me buying a game off my buddy for 30 bucks.

One entails using an illegal reproduction of a product that has likely been copied many times before the copy you downloaded.

The other entails the bartering or a product that is legally licensed and uncopied. Its no different then me having a garage sale and selling my old books, movies and video games.

Or do you drive by garage sales egging them screaming "parasite!"

That'll teach grampa for trying to sell his old VHS tapes. Mother fucker.
 

RobfromtheGulag

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Whether Jerry Holkins approves or does not approve of corporate strategy is of little interest to me. I enjoyed the comic because it had the silly fanboy in it.

As of yet there's nothing illegal about what Barnes & Noble are doing with games, so the developers are going to have to deal with it. For all the crap pc gamers get, they don't get to return games for portions of the original cost. It seems developers are trending towards making console games similar in that they cannot be returned, at least in their entirety.
 

Lucane

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rembrandtqeinstein said:
Lucane said:
So how do they feel about people renting games cheaper than pre-owned (and no profit to the makers after the renter buys the copy right?).
I would assume renting would be the same issue. You enjoy the work but you don't give "credit" to the original creators. However in my opinion renting is better because a renter isn't walking into a store with $55 of "game buying" money and spending that on something that doesn't benefit the publisher/developer. A renter is spending $20 a month on gamefly or whatever but he wouldn't be spending that $20 a month on new games anyway.

Also to all the people saying "copyright infringement is illegal and used games are legal" that isn't the issue and isn't relevant to this discussion. Even in countries where downloading for personal use is legal there is still the moral problem.

The issue is that just like piracy, used game sales don't benefit the creators. Is that statement accurate and if it isn't why not?
Granted, but they don't ever seem to voice a concern about rental store/site services.
 

GothmogII

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RobfromtheGulag said:
Whether Jerry Holkins approves or does not approve of corporate strategy is of little interest to me. I enjoyed the comic because it had the silly fanboy in it.

As of yet there's nothing illegal about what Barnes & Noble are doing with games, so the developers are going to have to deal with it. For all the crap pc gamers get, they don't get to return games for portions of the original cost. It seems developers are trending towards making console games similar in that they cannot be returned, at least in their entirety.
Well, the reason is mainly because PC games are tricky to resell, not least of all because of DRM. You also have to have the manual if it's got the code printed on it. And, PC games seem to suffer even worse from minor damage, where a console game may still run with a scratch or two, you can end up with corrupt files during installation with PC games. Also, while I've never encountered, I've heard horror stories about people getting malicious files on the discs too, although, my brother has traded a few games from Goozex and all of them have worked fine.
 

Icehearted

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Maybe arbitrarily inflating prices should be reconsidered. Tomb Raider Legend came out for the PC, Xbox, Xbox 360, Playstation 2, and Playstation 3. Of those, the titles retailed for $10 or more higher on the Playstation 3 and the Xbox 360, even though they were by and large exactly the same as they were on the other platforms. In fact, the game was ported from older generation consoles to newer ones. But because the Playstation 3 and the Xbox 360 were both so new, and the latest in consoles, the MSRP was inflated to reflect this. Last gen games were often released at about $50 a pop, but current generation games demand more money. They claim Dev costs, but I can promise you that the cost is negligible overall, since gaming has seen a rise in profitability over the last decade unlike nearly every other industry out there. Blanket development of shovelware and poor titles are also to blame for a rise in cost.

Used games are popular for much the same reason used clothing, gym equipment, etc are popular; people like to save money. Anyone with more brains than greed can see that, which is why game developers are bitching about it now (hint hint).

Had they put consumer satisfaction before profit, the landscape would be a different one, but instead we get games published so soon they have day 1 patches, and cost what might have once been thought of as an ungodly amount of money for a video game. There is no reason a new game should cost $60, even more so when the game is something like Street Fighter 4, which I'm sure cost a hell of a lot less to make than Mass Effect 2 or Fallout 3. It's arbitrary, it's greedy, it's why I would not hesitate to buy a used game whenever possible. If I feel the game is worth the extra spent to get it new I will do so, I did with Mass Effect 1 & 2, and with GTA4 and Red Dead Redemption.

I will, under no circumstances, EVER buy a new game if forced by some activation code, or missing content. As a matter of fact I make it a point to avoid and dismiss these entirely, and have been better for it. To hell with their greed and to hell with them. I'm not a bottomless pocket, and they're not all worth a premium.
 

Mercsenary

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Hubilub said:
Piracy is when one purchased game (if even that) is distributed between several different people.

Used games is when one purchased game is distributed to one other person.

How is used games worse than Pirating?

Frankly, this whole ordeal is stupid. Second hand market have existed ever since... well, since any kind of market existed. It's been around ever since gaming started. It's a logical way to dispose of a product you no longer want that has been universally accepted. There's nothing wrong with it. When you've bought something, that thing is yours. You don't own the idea, you don't own the right to clone or copy that thing, but you own that one object. You are free to sell it on or even give it away if you want to.

This is why I hate anti-used games arguments. It's basically saying "ONLY THE BIG BOYS ARE ALLOWED TO SELL STUFF". If you agree that selling used games is wrong, then you are saying that it's wrong for anyone to sell anything they own.

Need to get money by having a flee market? Nope, sorry, that's morally wrong. Have you grown out of your jeans and feel like selling them to a Second hand store? Sorry, that's morally wrong. Corporations being just as, if note more greedy than the people selling their stuff? THEY ARE UNDERDOGS WE NEED TO RESPECT!
THIS. THIS THIS THIS THIS.

quite frankly I would buy a used game because its cheap. And at a certain point down the line new ones would be cheap too. Grand Theft Auto 4 at release? What? 60 bucks? Now? lols 20. And it was released 2 years ago. I was willing to wait for it to go down but soem people werent. Good fro them they can afford to spend that money. I could not and even if I could I would not want to.

So either way they still get their money but they just get 40 dollars less of it.

And for all this talk of the Used games killing the industry I fail to see it. Sony, Microsoft, EA all the big companies are still posting profits. So where is this... death that is in the industry?
 

BlackWidower

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If used games are equivalent to piracy, then used books are equivalent to piracy. So are game rentals and libraries.
 

Icehearted

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BlackWidower said:
If used games are equivalent to piracy, then used books are equivalent to piracy. So are game rentals and libraries.
Too right. Funnier still, I don't think THQ or any of those others whining about used games would argue that point. This sounds an awful lot like that old RIAA rhetoric, when they wanted to ban ALL recording devices (tapes, vhs, DVDR, etc).
 

oktalist

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Gildan Bladeborn said:
the products publishers and developers of console titles are competing with are their own titles
Their own titles from the past. Not titles that are still making money for them.

If the problem is people buying games used that have only been released a month or two ago and are still full price new, then I can understand the objection. But then you are not really saving anything by buying used, so I don't see why anyone would, so consequently I don't see how it could be happening on as large a scale as has been suggested.

A used game is cheaper because it is old, not because it is pre-owned. If the game in question was still being sold new by its publisher, they would be selling it for a similarly low price, for the same reason. And then it would not be neccessary to buy used.

I advocate buying good, old games used that have long since stopped being sold new. It helps keep the standard of games high.

Gildan Bladeborn said:
They have lost no money whatsoever from you, you were NEVER their customer in the first place.
But I would have been their customer, if the games they make now were as good as the games they used to make.
 

CLime

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rembrandtqeinstein said:
CLime said:
The better question is, why should we care?

Yes, the existence of the secondary market probably means that game developers make less money. So what? The developers and publishers are hurt a little, the consumer benefits a lot. That's called "efficiency," and it's a good thing. Morality has nothing to do with it.
If morality has nothing to do with it then from a purely practical perspective you might as well pirate.
You're right, actually. Piracy is often a perfectly rational thing for one person to do. The reason it's illegal, obviously, is because pirates are not self-consistent. Copyright infringement in general is more or less the Prisoner's Dilemma on a large scale. As long as most people are buying the game, and you can avoid getting caught, piracy is great for the pirates. If enough people begin pirating in lieu of buying games such that the publishers and developers are not making enough money to motivate the creation of further games, however, then everyone loses.

Not to go all Econ 101 here, but the market operates most efficiently when everyone buys their games legally, be it new or used. The anti-piracy laws exist because otherwise there's no consistent strategy everyone can adopt that will result in the most efficient outcome. A used game market can exist alongside the new game market, whereas piracy cannot. That is the difference.
 

Mr.Lucifer

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Used gaming stores are no worse than used cd stores , used car dealerships, or used book stores. Saying that used game stores are worse than pirates is implying that gamers who buyed used video games are worse than those who illegally download games.

I have not illegally download current and previous gen games, so I refused to be called scum.
 

Carlston

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So other than the lame whining of video game companies fearing Blockbuster and game stop, and the fear of making a quality game people don't want to sell back... where does this stop?

If I get a new couch. Does the couch company demand I can't sell it to someone else? Used cars according to Ford is grand theft auto? A gun, a movie...Porn PORN! Is buying Lusty asses #32 second hand going to have Deep Throat Mary on a tv set crying her family and coworkers will starve?
Antiques! History that's not history, that's theft! Out with the old in with the new. Save nothing because we expect you all to have deep pockets and make the economy move! Btw we are shipping all jobs to WhoknowswhereStan where they make our games costing jobs. No jobs left in the countries that BUY our games? Who cares...used games are theft!

Not the same? Bullshit exactly the same.
In the USA they did what was called Cash for clunkers. It was to be a incentive to get gas guzzlers and broken cars polluting the air off the road. It was so badly abused and written the poor it was meant to help didn't see much of it, and the person with a one year old 29mpg vehicle got a fat check for the down payment of the car.

Now what happened to the used cars? They could not be sold used. They has a chemical put in the engine to seize it up. Tires slashed...totally ruined to not only be unrecycleable but toxic to boot.

Why not demand we can only play them for a year then they must be destroyed by law?
Would settle the corps fear of ROMS and Classic gaming...

My problem with used games is for 5 bucks more I can get a new one with no chance of scratched disks...and honestly the only used games I get are like Force Unleashed Sith edition, why? I bought the normal force unleashed. Not paying 30 bucks for 3 more missions. 13 maybe not 3. Metal Gear Solid games when they get the extra stuff but with DLC I can get that anyway. I don't like buying a new game or DVD when they add something for a fat sum that's should have been with the original release.

By the way, least in the USA your licensing agreement saying I can not resell the product I purchased is null and void. Since Consumer law states I can resell anything I purchase once. Sorry can't force me to sign away rights by making a agreement already made null by a nation wide law. So to bad... suck it up, make games people want to keep.

Oh and Penny Arcade is in the middle of this debate not really taking a side from what I saw. So it's not Penny Arcade saying used games are piracy...
 

Phenakist

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If a developer sells a million games and 200,000 are traded second hand, there are still a million games in existence.

If a record company makes a record, sells a million, and someone puts it up on bit torrent, there could be 2 million copies in existance.

Therefore, buying pre-owned games isn't piracy.

What next "Oh frightfully sorry old chap I seem to have pirated your common cold off you"
 

Gazisultima

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Sorry, just had to add this. What if someone buys a game used THEN pirates it? Would the universe explode or something? :p