People's distaste for Science/Maths

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commodore96

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Aug 31, 2010
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Science is great but what really grinds my gears about science are the science majors and professors.

I hate most science majors at my college for a couple reason

1: You have a 2 hour lab you have to go to on top of classes!!!!!!!! OMG how will you ever survive doing your homework with your professor right there giving you directions??

2: If I run into another science major who explains to me how hard they have it because they have to memorize terms I will punch them in the face regardless of gender.

3: Really you have trouble writing a lab report? It is pretty much telling the teacher what you did that day, and they always copy one another. It is depressing.

4: It is the only major I know that 80% of the class fails the tests and the teachers curve it up so they pass. Seriously it is pathetic. I can see a 5 point curve that some teachers give if everyone was screwed but some of these curves science kids get are ridiculous.

5: Most science professors suck. Most of them are boring dull assholes who start spewing out stupid information when they get defensive about something so you can see how much smarter they are than you.
 

Korolev

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Jul 4, 2008
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Indeed - and that's why US universities are having to rely more and more on overseas students. America used to respect scientists - until the scientists started telling them things they didn't want to hear. Now scientists are branded as elitist and arrogant. Many domestic students in the US and Australia are raised to believe that academics are stuffy and boring and useless and sexual unattractive. They are taught to admire rap stars and sports stars and movie celebrities. They are taught to value money over knowledge. In places like China and India, however, their culture tells them that being a scholar is respectable, that there's more to respect than money and that knowledge for the sake of knowledge is a worthwhile pursuit. Is it really so strange that nearly half the staff/students in all the biology labs that I've worked in are now Chinese or Japanese or Indian? Is it any surprise that nearly half the names attached to half the papers in journals like Nature or JBC are of asian origin? No. America USED to value science and learning. Being smart was valued. Now, in the US, and indeed, Australia, it no longer is, despite the fact that science and mathematics are what BUILT those nations to their current state. I find it strange that in a nation so absolutely dependent on technology for waging warfare, science and mathematics are derided so thoroughly.

And to be honest, the problem is partially caused by scientists themselves. We don't do a good enough job communicating to the public the importance of our research. Modern science is baffling, jargon filled and takes years and years of studying to gain even a basic grasp of fundamental concepts. A lot of people don't have the time to learn science, because they have jobs and families and hobbies and all that stuff.

So it is very difficult to communicate to the general public. It's not their fault - they don't have the time or the inclination to master a subject. Scientists just have to do a better job at communicating our worth to the public.

There's also a strong strain of anti-intellectualism that has developed in the US. In Australia, it's commonly referred to as "tall poppy syndrome". Simply put, a lot of students resent academics for doing well. They view the scientists and the academics with mistrust and suspicion, because they can seemingly do things others can't (this isn't true, by the way - being a scientist requires a mindset and determination. You don't have to be a super genius to be a scientist. With enough effort, most people could learn science).

Throughout the US, there is a recurring theme running through a lot of heads: "What, you think you know better than me!?" In the US, people are taught that "everyone's opinions are equal". That's nonsense - the more informed opinion is usually better, but people don't want to be told that. People feel resentment when they are told that they are ignorant on certain matters. When a scientist explains why their mythology or folk beliefs are incorrect, they feel (often correctly) that they are being "talked down to" by the "eggheads".

So, how to fix the negative image that scientists have created for themselves?:

Scientists need to explain their position more clearly - they need to make it clear that being ignorant is not the same thing as being stupid, but that being ignorant means that the populace doesn't have the knowledge to address complex issues. Everyone is ignorant of something, and we need to make it clear to the general public that we don't think they are stupid just because they haven't invested 4 or more years of their life in a science degree. We need to be honest and tell them when they are wrong, but we also need to adopt a more friendly approach when telling them that they are wrong. As tempting as it might be, we shouldn't assume that they are idiots for "not getting us", rather, we should examine how we could explain our positions and ideas in such a way as to enable them to understand us. Scientists have a habit of forgetting how hard it was to learn the stuff they know and how hard it is for the general public, most of whom haven't been to university, to understand the jargon.

We also need to stop treating the general public like children. Often, scientists won't even bother speaking to the public on the assumption that "they just wouldn't understand". In my experience, however, people generally will if you find a clever way of explaining it. Sure, you might not be able to easily explain very complex scientific theories to a person, but you can general get the gist of a lot of it across. We need to make it clear to the public that we don't think they are stupid just because they might not know what dsRNA is or what how a DNA retrovirus functions. Ignorance is NOT stupidity, and ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of. We're all ignorant of something. I don't know how to fire a gun or how to drive a tank. Am I stupid? I can't cook well or grow my own crops. I'm totally ignorant about many things, like farming, sowing or engineering. But that doesn't mean I'm stupid.

But it's not entirely our fault either. The public have caused a lot of problems too. In return for scientists being more humble, here's what I want the public to realize (and maybe we need to do a better job of explaining it):

1) The world is complex. It's INCREDIBLY complex. I know only a little physics, but know quite a bit of chemistry and biology - and the sheer complexity of biological systems is enough to blow your mind. The way DNA unravels in order to transcription to occur, the way cellular receptors phosphorylate proteins in signalling chains, the way cytokines and other molecules interact with the nucleus to suppress or upregulate gene expression - you're talking about hundreds of thousands, it not millions of specialize proteins working in an unbelievably small space amongst a cytoskeleton structure of amazing complexity. There is SO MUCH about the cell that the average person has no idea about. Scientists spend years and years and years and years learning about these systems. It's a never ending process - you NEVER stop learning new things in science, EVER. No one knows everything - that's how complex the fields are. You can spend your entire life just trying to learn one more function of one more gene - and there are tens of thousands of genes, which can produce, with alternative splicing, a huge array of RNA transcripts, creating a huge amount of different proteins. There's a lot of information out there. I know scientists shouldn't pretend to be know-it-alls, but it galls me when you have members of the public assume that they know it all themselves.

2) Please learn about the subject before criticizing it. You won't believe the amount of fundamentalist christians/muslims/jews/hindus I've run into who say "evolution is impossible", who haven't even READ ONE TEXTBOOK on evolution! They criticize it, without understanding a single thing about it. Please don't do this. If you don't know what you are talking about, don't criticize it. Read a proper book on evolutionary theory BEFORE clearing "it's impossible", just because a website told you it was.

3) Please understand that science is a WORK IN PROGRESS. As a famous comedian once said: "scientists know they don't know everything! If they thought they knew everything, they'd stop!". Science can't explain everything, but that is not a reason to think that "Science will never explain X or Y or Z". A long time ago scientists (who were called natural philosophers) couldn't explain what lightning was. Religious people said "Aha! You can't say what lightning is! It's obviously a divine manifestation of the powers of God!". But with a bit of cleverness and hardwork and time, we now CAN explain what lightning is (it's an atmospheric electrical discharge). A long time ago people said "aha! you'll NEVER be able to explain how a baby forms in the womb! It's a divine miracle!" but now, with modern molecular biology, we CAN explain how a baby forms in the womb.

So that's the deal:

1) Scientists should be less arrogant, but the public needs to realize that we do know what we're talking about. The wealth of technology surrounding you proves this
2) Ignorance is NOT stupidity. Everyone is ignorant about something and it's not shameful to admit you don't know much about a subject.
3) If the US wants to retain it's technological edge, it must learn to respect academics more. The US military is powerful because of it's Tomahawk Missiles, Stealth Bombers, Daisy Cutter bombs, M1A2 chobham armour and nuclear bombs. Guess who built those things? Scientists. If you want your army to remain powerful, you need to cultivate the best scientific minds, otherwise other countries will start inventing better weapons than you.
 

Bobbity

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I get incredibly pissed off, actually. My christian ed teacher last year saw scientific research as wonderful, except when it got in his way, at which point it was to be ignored utterly.

Somewhat off topic: When I tell people in my year that I'm an atheist, it always really bugs me if they ask whether or not I believe in science. I mean, that's incredibly awkwardly phrased, has implications that I don't intend and is just all-round annoying. Does anyone else ever encounter this?
 

The Apothecarry

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Mar 6, 2011
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Simple: 60% of the people you talk to look down on science/math (or school in general) because it's not "cool" (that's how things were at my high school). I'm in a college surrounded by programmers and artists who love science, math, and games.

I personally dislike math (especially) and science because it's not my academic specialty. That is reserved for English. I can respect anyone who loves and is passionate about science or math.

To all you Grammar Nazis: I'm getting sleepy so don't jump on my calling myself an English specialist if I made a mistake or two.
 

ultimateownage

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Feb 11, 2009
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cookyy2k said:
I try my best to get others interested but with very little success.
Well that's your problem right there. You can't make people interested, you just make yourself look arrogant.
 

StellarViking

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I am a former art school student getting ready to begin my studies on astrophysics and cosmology.

Many of my friends see this as a bad move because "science is lame and represses your creativity". I don't understand the hate towards math and science, the stuff is awesome and some of it takes some serious chops, especially higher level math (I still hate calculus).
 

A Free Man

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May 9, 2010
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I think most people don't like them because they are at their core essentially very repetative subjects. I am not talking about the fields themselves because lets face it you don't go into a maths or science degree or job if you don't like the field. I am talking about the subjects at school. There are ultimately going to be people who are good at maths or science and people who aren't as good. Those who aren't probably won't enjoy it just because they aren't good at it and those who are probably dislike the repetitive nature of the subjects and/or the way they are taught. I am part of the second group myself. I am good at both subjects but find them monotonously boring most of the time.

Midgeamoo said:
I found this quite funny, maybe I just interpreted it wrong but basically in three or four lines you said both that you don't think of yourself as superior for studying a subject and that that subject is responsible for the entirety of getting humans to where they are now. Did you not pause to consider that when you mention this to people it just may imply that you feel superior? Also by saying that it is kind of descrediting every other field simultaneously.
 

Cowabungaa

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Well, maths and I have a...strained relationship.

Okay we just hate each other's guts. Really maths, I don't want to hate you but why on earth do you have to be so impossible to live with? And even when I try to leave you alone you chase me and harrass me. Dammit maths, just go away.

But still, I love science, especially beta or 'hard' subjects like physics and stuff. But I simply suck at it, I can't work with numbers. At all. That, and in school it was taught horribly. Science can be so fascinating, but when a dispassionate teacher drones on about worn-out formulas it gets very very dull.
 

mikev7.0

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Jan 25, 2011
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Wild_Marker said:
That whole science vs art thingy always reminds me that gaming is awesome for requiring both.
Sorry? Gaming grew from pure Science, there really wasn't a lot of art during the birth of games as computers could not process that much graphically. You want to call Nolan Bushnell an artist? First he'd laugh, then he'd feel insulted. Without Science you wouldn't have games.

OP: I think a lot of people are that way because let's face it. Science is fundamental to all life. Science is the most relevant idea that humanity has. For us to have a "future" Science will have to be that future. Science is not fun. It's a lot of work, and it's fulfilling but it's not a blast and it doesn't pay well. Now looking at the world we live in today, YOU tell me why something gets marginalized or mocked just becuase it's not fun, doesn't involve money but DOES involve a hell of a lot of work? Not too tough to connect the dots is it?

Ignore what they think. If you work in Science and math you are doing the most important work there is and believe me when I say it's appreciated, not just "yay you rock" appreciated, but others inspired to dedicate their lives to the discipline appreciated.
 

mikev7.0

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StellarViking said:
I am a former art school student getting ready to begin my studies on astrophysics and cosmology.

Many of my friends see this as a bad move because "science is lame and represses your creativity". I don't understand the hate towards math and science, the stuff is awesome and some of it takes some serious chops, especially higher level math (I still hate calculus).
It was probably difficult, especially with your friends attitudes, but you made the right choice. I thank you sincerely.
 

Wild_Marker

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Mar 31, 2011
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mikev7.0 said:
Wild_Marker said:
That whole science vs art thingy always reminds me that gaming is awesome for requiring both.
Sorry? Gaming grew from pure Science, there really wasn't a lot of art during the birth of games as computers could not process that much graphically. You want to call Nolan Bushnell an artist? First he'd laugh, then he'd feel insulted. Without Science you wouldn't have games.

OP: I think a lot of people are that way because let's face it. Science is fundamental to all life. Science is the most relevant idea that humanity has. For us to have a "future" Science will have to be that future. Science is not fun. It's a lot of work, and it's fulfilling but it's not a blast and it doesn't pay well. Now looking at the world we live in today, YOU tell me why something gets marginalized or mocked just becuase it's not fun, doesn't involve money but DOES involve a hell of a lot of work? Not too tough to connect the dots is it?

Ignore what they think. If you work in Science and math you are doing the most important work there is and believe me when I say it's appreciated, not just "yay you rock" appreciated, but others inspired to dedicate their lives to the discipline appreciated.
Yes, gaming was born from sience, that I won't argue (I mean come on, Tenis for Two anyone?). But you can't deny that it has become an art form and unlike movies, where the technical aspect and the art/visual aspect are more separated, in games they're a lot more closer to each other.
 

mikev7.0

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Jan 25, 2011
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Wild_Marker said:
mikev7.0 said:
Wild_Marker said:
That whole science vs art thingy always reminds me that gaming is awesome for requiring both.
Sorry? Gaming grew from pure Science, there really wasn't a lot of art during the birth of games as computers could not process that much graphically. You want to call Nolan Bushnell an artist? First he'd laugh, then he'd feel insulted. Without Science you wouldn't have games.

OP: I think a lot of people are that way because let's face it. Science is fundamental to all life. Science is the most relevant idea that humanity has. For us to have a "future" Science will have to be that future. Science is not fun. It's a lot of work, and it's fulfilling but it's not a blast and it doesn't pay well. Now looking at the world we live in today, YOU tell me why something gets marginalized or mocked just becuase it's not fun, doesn't involve money but DOES involve a hell of a lot of work? Not too tough to connect the dots is it?

Ignore what they think. If you work in Science and math you are doing the most important work there is and believe me when I say it's appreciated, not just "yay you rock" appreciated, but others inspired to dedicate their lives to the discipline appreciated.
Yes, gaming was born from sience, that I won't argue (I mean come on, Tenis for Two anyone?). But you can't deny that it has become an art form and unlike movies, where the technical aspect and the art/visual aspect are more separated, in games they're a lot more closer to each other.
I wasn't disagreeing with that. (Good thing too, since I know #$%@ all about how movies are made) Anyone who wants to call games art, makes them art, if only for them. You were saying that games required art, I was just saying that wasn't true. Art isn't necessary for there to be games. Science is necessary for there to be games. Come to think of it art hasn't really been the birthplace of anything but more art.

That also adds to my earlier point. I guess you could tell these people: "What? Do you seriously as a society need another artist? Christ, is there a shortage suddenly? Really? No? Cool, Shut up!"
 

ChildishLegacy

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Sarge034 said:
Midgeamoo said:
Before I start ranting, I will say that I don't feel superior because I study/enjoy science, I'm just feeling a bit pissy about other people's views on it.(...)

(...)he also likes to think himself as very smart and good at science (which as far as I can tell he isn't). My teacher asked him what he wanted to do at university and he said he wanted to do Chemistry, the teacher asked him why and he blurted out some text book definition of research to do with functional groups of organic chemicals which wasn't impressive to any science student at all.(...)

(...)I don't know if its my generation of just people in general at this age, but I don't understand why being an academic is something that is frowned upon now, it's a pretty pathetic thing for people to do.

Anybody know why so many people look down upon people being intellectual/inquisitive in school/college at the moment, and why it's almost becoming a social taboo to talk about enjoying something that is to do with college work and academic subjects?(...)
Can you see the irony of your statement?

I might be missing some part of the story, but it sounds like you were looking down at someone who has an interest in chemistry. While he might not be as smart or as well versed in chemistry as you are. He is showing an interest in intellectual/inquisitive activities.

So why did you, of all people, dismiss his claim?
I tried to reply to this earlier, but the escapist has been having none of it today >.>

I was not annoyed at anybody due to their like for a subject or dislike of it for that matter, I was annoyed if anything at the fact that he was just using text book definitions to attempt to make himself look intelligent, as he does this with any field (such as politics, he claims that the conservative party in England is the 'way forward' when he has no clue about any of it, he just likes to sound like he knows what he's doing). It's people that 'know' whatever they know about any subject so that they can use it to look better rather than because they enjoy it/are interested in it that I was looking down on here, sorry if it read otherwise, but it was late when I posted it.
 

ChildishLegacy

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StellarViking said:
I am a former art school student getting ready to begin my studies on astrophysics and cosmology.

Many of my friends see this as a bad move because "science is lame and represses your creativity". I don't understand the hate towards math and science, the stuff is awesome and some of it takes some serious chops, especially higher level math (I still hate calculus).
It takes a different kind of perception to see the creativity and order in science, you just have to get the right mindset and it becomes apparent to you, I'm sure this goes for everybody and your friends are biased/looking at it the wrong way (but the same can be said for drama etc. when looking at people like me I guess)

Also, stick with your calculus, it's one of the more 'welcoming' parts of maths and isn't that bad once you get used to it :D. It's also one of the most applicable (especially since modern calculus was first designed around things like newton's mechanics).

Edit: Sorry bout the double post, was about to make a triple but I'll wait to reply to another :(
 

Sarge034

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Midgeamoo said:
I tried to reply to this earlier, but the escapist has been having none of it today >.>

I was not annoyed at anybody due to their like for a subject or dislike of it for that matter, I was annoyed if anything at the fact that he was just using text book definitions to attempt to make himself look intelligent, as he does this with any field (such as politics, he claims that the conservative party in England is the 'way forward' when he has no clue about any of it, he just likes to sound like he knows what he's doing). It's people that 'know' whatever they know about any subject so that they can use it to look better rather than because they enjoy it/are interested in it that I was looking down on here, sorry if it read otherwise, but it was late when I posted it.
No worries, I was having the same problem replying to people for about three days after the site came back up from the attack.

Ok, I see now. He is not truly interested in the topic, but wants to use it to gain attention. That makes more sense, but it is a rather poor example to use for your argument.

I do agree with your frustration though. I rather enjoy science, but high level math makes me rage. :mad:
 

aei_haruko

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Jun 12, 2011
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StellarViking said:
I am a former art school student getting ready to begin my studies on astrophysics and cosmology.

Many of my friends see this as a bad move because "science is lame and represses your creativity". I don't understand the hate towards math and science, the stuff is awesome and some of it takes some serious chops, especially higher level math (I still hate calculus).
totally, I love chemistry, it is amazing. and @ my skewl I can take astrophysics senior year
 

II2

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I think unless people have a REASON to use math, they generally don't see the beauty of it - taking a math class because you have to is excruciating and I did horribly at it in class because I just couldn't.be.arsed.

That all changed when I got into digital signal programming / processing of my own volition to do things with music and sound I couldn't, prior.
 

Mandalore_15

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Midgeamoo said:
I didn't experience that so much. Hell, I study law but have a keen interest in science and technology. Most of my friends studied sciences or engineering and my girlfriend studied maths, and most of those friends take the piss out of me for doing a "humanities" degree which, to them, is less than worthless. The problem is, I'm starting to worry that they might be right...
 

SilentCom

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Science isn't a person, it doesn't do anything on its own. Science is a form of human understanding of the universe and can thus be applied. I view science as like a tool, and just as any tool, science is meant to amplify one's ability for whatever its applied purpose is. Great things can come from science, both good and bad, such as curing a disease or creating nuclear weapons. Scientific "progress" is only really the progression of human understanding and the applications created from said understanding. It all really comes down to how it is applied.

I don't believe people should base humanity around the notion of scientific progress. There are other types of progress of varied perceptions. People value different things and because of that, some people may enjoy science or math while others may not. Don't feel the need to say that science is the end all because it isn't, not for many people anyways.

Think of it this way, those people who aren't interested in science or math aren't going to be the next scientific pioneer.