Personal Opinion on Religion (Atheist View)

[traceur_]

once again you're arguing and not answering the question, no one said religious people can't respond but since this is a thread about the atheist view of religion, the views of religious people are hardly relevant in this discussion. As for how I would react in the situations you suggested, I would react in exactly the same way, if it was the theists view of atheism I wouldn't post anything since my atheism would make my post irrelevant. Once again no one was told to not respond.

1. The op never asked a question.

2. The op never stated this was about the atheist view of religion, he stated it was his personal view of religion. In fact he specifically stated he was open to all views, so the views of religious people are "relevant".

3. A bunch of people (who are not atheists) come in and make a few ignorant and insulting posts about religion, and you are asking religious people to just sit there and take it?!

dude the question is what your personal opinion of religion is, and read the damn title, see in brackets where it says (atheist view) yeh that means it is the atheist personal opinion of religion, and for your third point, why do you care? If you think they are wrong why should you give a shit about what they think. If you want to post your opinion just do it and stop arguing with other people's opinions.

also man, I don't think we'll ever agree so how about we just agree to disagree, so truce?

*extends hand*

 

[Psycosis]

Maybe, if god is real, he's asleep, apparently he created everything right? that would make anyone tired as a sloth on sleeping pills. although he is apparently limitless in power and intelligence and whatnot so... maybe he buggered off to another universe and left us to our own devices while he made another one.

BTW I can be very philosophical at times and am actually an atheist and couldn't care less but decided to make an ass of myself being philosophical.

 

[Baby Tea]

Religion is a very touchy issue. I guess i'm atheist, I find the concept of an almighty being too fantastical to comprehend. This may incline that I am too weak minded and choose not to think about religion, this is not the case. There are certain things that I question which...really make sense. I mean, from a christian point of view, God gave us free will, but to follow the story of Adam and Eve, technically it was Satan who gave us free will, for free will requires knowledge of good and evil, which we as humans would not have had if Satan had not persuaded them to take the fruit, and nobody can say that taking the fruit was an act of evil, because all we knew before eating the fruit was good, therefore everything was good and there was no evil, so how were we supposed to know that we were doing something wrong?

If any Christian has an answer, I will listen. I'm not trying to flame, merely trying to understand.

Well, so long as you're trying to understand and willing to have a civil and respectful conversation: Free will can certainly exist without the knowledge of good or evil. Morality can't, free will can. And that's an important distinction. In a lot of games today (Take Fable as an example) the idea of 'free will' is completely centered around morality, which is a pretty narrow view of free will. Free will extends to the mundane and neutral, as well as the important and moral. So while morality can certainly tie itself up with free will, it isn't required for the existence of free will. Simply: The absence of the knowledge of good and evil doesn't mean that good and evil don't exist.

Therefore keep in mind that the tree was called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It wasn't 'The Tree of Good and Evil', but 'The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil'. Good and evil already existed, and that's shown by Satan even being there and tempting Eve. Satan is an evil guy, but if good and evil didn't exist then he couldn't have tempted them to directly disobey God. And we know that's bad, since God got pretty ticked at him afterward. If it wasn't bad, God wouldn't have gotten ticked. Plus, when Satan was tempting Eve, he said the fruit would 'make you like God, knowing good from evil'. If both God and Satan (Since he know about it too) were able to discern from good and evil, then they must have already been in existence.

So, from a Christian perspective: God did give us free will, and Satan tempted us (successfully) to use that free will to directly disobey God which brought about the knowledge to do evil. Thus, sin entered mankind.

 

[Baby Tea]

Maybe someone could help me out by adding a religious point of view to this thought process:

So, God is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient and wholly benevolent. Omnipotence means he can create a perfect universe in which there are absolutely no problems whatsoever and all manner of life live together in peaceful harmony. Omniscience means he knows how to do this. Absolute benovelence means He should do this. So why isn't this the case?

First off, I'd like to say that both myself and cuddly_tomato aren't looking to 'convert' anyone to anything. We debate (Cuddly_tomato more then I, and more articulately too) because we're looking for people to have the right to believe what they want without people calling them idiots and morons and completely trashing something that is held very dear to their hearts. Do we all have to agree? Absolutely not! Cuddly_tomato is an atheist, and I'm a Christian! We don't agree on pretty much anything theologically. But I respect his choice to be an atheist, and he respects mine to be a Christian. And that's what we'd like to see more of.
If you can do that, welcome! We need more of those!

Now, to your question! Which I will try to answer as best I can from a Christian perspective:
That is a popular question, actually! Which could probably be summed up as: Why is there pain and suffering in the world if God is so good? That pretty much sums it up, right? If God created a 'perfect' world then there would be no suffering or pain, right?

Well, when God created the world, he had a few options:
1) Create the world as it is now: With the possibility of good and evil.
2) Create a world where evil is impossible, and only good happens.
3) Create a world with no morality: An amoral world, where good and evil do not exist.
4) Or just don't make the world at all.

Now, Christians often call God: a God of love. The New Testament actually says that God is love, and that is shown through the sending of His son Jesus, by grace and mercy, for the forgiveness of our sins.
So, that being said, in which of those choices of world creation is love possible?

Number 4 is out, since if nothing was around then there'd certainly be no love.
Number 3 is out, since if there is no good or evil, then how can one know what love is?
Number 2 is out for a similar reason. There is good, but no evil. So how can we know good is good? What do we base that on? Essentially, number 2 is number 3, and we just wouldn't know.

Therefore: Only with number 1 is love possible. Only with number 1 does the fall of mankind into sin, and God sending His son to save them, make sense. For it's only out of love that God would have.

 

[Spacelord]

I'm beginning to see an oh so familiar pattern emerging, you get some debate, a lot of flaming, and then everyone just agree's to disagree. Normally I would say "well, at least it generates debate, and debate leads to progress", but you're not going to change anyone's mind about religion

Despite my aloof attitude in my earlier post, I must say that I've had a similar experience. I've also become a lot more tolerant of other people's religious views, something which isn't particularly easy for me: my grandmother was a fundamentalist protestant, and most of my extended family (which I've only met once - at my grandmother's funeral) are either Jehova's witnesses or member of a weird subsect of sorts. My uncle actually firebombed a corporate meeting room while they were holding a meeting, once.

So I guess that all the religion threads have had merit for me, in that I've read posts of christians that were surprisingly not-batshit-insane, that have forced me to overcome my preconceived notions on christianity, christians and religion as a whole.

As for your blurb elaborating on your personal views, I'm reminded of a paragraph written by Epicurus, one I once read on a demotivational. I believe this point of view is called the problem of evil [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_problem_of_evil] in philosophy and theology:

Spoiler

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
- Epicurus

I think the thing is that reason doesn't enter into the religious experience: it's a deeply personal thing, and a tender subject. If you attack someone's personal theological views, you attack the person.

The flamewars can be summarised thusly:
Atheist: You're wrong, because X.
Theist: It's not just about X. It's about Y, Z, etc.
Atheist: You're just dancing around the issue! You're WRONG!
Theist: Fuck you!
Atheist: No fuck you!
Etc.

You're not going to change someone's mind with a two-paragraph blurb, especially since the debate has been going on for the last two thousand years or so. Both parties are deeply entrenched, and aren't going anywhere soon. So, I suppose the only merit of these threads are that they've furthered my understanding and tolerance of others with different opinions. And it's good to hear I'm not the only one.

Oh, and it's a great way to get a Hot Topic badge.

 

[Bagaloo]

*Snip*

Thanks for the reply, its raised yet more interesting questions from the depths of my sleep deprived mind

Right then, lets crack on with more annoying questions!
I have to come back again to omnipotence, because this is really a big thing for me to comprehend. If God is all powerful, He can make anything work. This should then mean that he could create a world full of love with no evil in which everyone could still see that it was a good and loving world, because heck, He's all powerful?

I'd also argue that its all very well allowing evil and sin to exist to show that love is there, but doesn't this then lead to the sacrifice of certain people so that others can feel God's love? I'm basing this on the notion of Hell, because in my eyes if even one person actually goes to Hell, God has failed to be truly loving, as he is letting one of his creations suffer for all eternity? I would guess this can be countered by the notion that "maybe no one actually goes to Hell, its all one big test of faith and the persons capacity to love God back", but then this doesn't make sense to me because God is omniscient, which means He shouldn't have to test people because he already knows the outcome?

I guess at the end of the day, what it comes down to in my mind is that for there to be a one true God that is all powerful and wholly good and loving, then he should be able to fix everything up perfectly, rather than all the dismal things you hear about whenever you watch a news channel?

On a side not to clarify, in my initial post I was partway through speculating that the notion of religious debate is pointless because it doesn't change anything, which I then abandoned because it most certainly does, my own views have been effected by debates going on in this forum

 

[Bagaloo]

The flamewars can be summarised thusly:
Atheist: You're wrong, because X.
Theist: It's not just about X. It's about Y, Z, etc.
Atheist: You're just dancing around the issue! You're WRONG!
Theist: Fuck you!
Atheist: No fuck you!
Etc.

I find this to be very accurate!
Its this sort of thing that sticks me in a sort of middle ground, agnostic frame of mind. It becomes apparent that neither side can answer the question, or come up with anything that can't be ripped to shreds by a counter-argument. It simply leaves everything as a very complicated mess of viewpoints.

 

[Baby Tea]

Thanks for the reply, its raised yet more interesting questions from the depths of my sleep deprived mind

No problem! If we can have a good, respectful conversation then I'm almost always up for this type of talk! And more questions are good! The Bible says 'Come, let us reason together'. So, let's see if I can actually answer them!

I have to come back again to omnipotence, because this is really a big thing for me to comprehend. If God is all powerful, He can make anything work. This should then mean that he could create a world full of love with no evil in which everyone could still see that it was a good and loving world, because heck, He's all powerful?

A fair question!
C.S. Lewis once said (And I'm paraphrasing here): that the power of God doesn't remove the notions of nonsense. So, basically, God couldn't create a 2 story house with 4 stories. That doesn't limit the power of God, because nonsense is nonsense, even when dealing with God. God couldn't make a 4 headed monkey with one head. Is that limiting the power of God? No! Again, you can plainly see that that is just nonsense, right? You can't have a 4 headed monkey with just one head! That totally contradicts the part about 4 heads!

Likewise, I don't think God could create world with love, yet nothing to base that love on (Especially with us still having any sort of free will). If we are free to reason as God created us, then how would we even begin to understand what love is, or is not, when we have nothing to match it against? We couldn't! Therefore I don't see that as a limiting of God's power, or a demonstration of His withholding power, but rather a proof that nonsense is still nonsense, even when dealing with God.

For quick clarification: I'm not calling your question 'nonsense'. Maybe it's not needed for me to say, but sometimes things can come across the wrong way on forums, you know? Just assume I'm speaking in a normal, friendly way. Because I usually do.

I'd also argue that its all very well allowing evil and sin to exist to show that love is there, but doesn't this then lead to the sacrifice of certain people so that others can feel God's love? I'm basing this on the notion of Hell, because in my eyes if even one person actually goes to Hell, God has failed to be truly loving, as he is letting one of his creations suffer for all eternity? I would guess this can be countered by the notion that "maybe no one actually goes to Hell, its all one big test of faith and the persons capacity to love God back", but then this doesn't make sense to me because God is omniscient, which means He shouldn't have to test people because he already knows the outcome?

An excellent question, and another popular one!
There are, generally, two types of people in the world:
Those who have heard of God.
And those who haven't.

For those who haven't, or haven't properly, and who live and die never knowing: I would like to think, knowing God as a God of love, that he'd be forgiving and merciful. After all, how are they expected to know? If He can forgive me for my sins, and I know what is right and wrong, I'm certain he can forgive those who have no idea.

For those who do know and have heard properly: If they're told properly, and choose to not believe, then they've made their choice, right? Some have asked me why God doesn't come down right now with a flash of light and a booming voice and show the world He exists! It sort of makes sense, right? Well, I personally know people that even if God himself did come down, they'd still not believe. Some people have just hardened their hearts to the whole idea of God, and no amount of preaching, truth, or divine happenings will direct them otherwise. Heck, He even appeared to the Israelites a ton of times, they still had people turning away!
And God doesn't just make them love Him, because God wants a real love. A legitimate love. Not a forced love. God gives us the freedom to believe, and therefore the freedom to disbelieve.
Now, you won't hear me say that 'so and so is going to hell' or even 'so and so is going to heaven', because it isn't my place to say. I'm certainly not God, and how He eventually judges will be His doing, not that of any pastor, evangelist, church, priest, or pope. Anyone who tells you that you are for sure going to Hell, just remind them that Jesus Himself said that there will be people who will cry out 'Lord! Lord! Did we not drive out demons in your name?' and He will say 'Get away, I never knew you'. Which, basically means that, even people who think they have it right but completely missed the point (*COUGH*WESTBORO*COUGH*) will fall under the weight of their own judgment.

On a side not to clarify, in my initial post I was partway through speculating that the notion of religious debate is pointless because it doesn't change anything, which I then abandoned because it most certainly does, my own views have been effected by debates going on in this forum

You know, that really makes me happy. Really it does. Like I said: I'm not looking to convert people (Though if anyone really wanted to talk about it, I'd say PM me), but rather just make sure that people understand Christianity and other religions so that their opinion isn't marred by ignorance, false-information, and that guy on the street corner who yells how you're going to hell.

 

[Matronadena]

I want to add a note...not so much going off what I posted here earlier...that I find it interesting that when these come up it is more or less the " JudaoChristain" traditions that get mentioned, and referenced.

now Im not too shocked seeing as this is a site dominated by a largely western structure... but I do again feel it important to point out..

the concept, values, traditions, and cultures of other faiths outside the JudaoChristain family ( christian, judica,islam etc ) can differ very very very greatly.

for instance, I was born into a family that was one half christian other half ancient Celt ( and not Wicca or the new age spin, I mean pre-galic tribal beliefs) on my mothers side.. that side also speaks Gàidhlig exclusively...

my fathers side was Irish catholic or atheist/agnostic..

I ended up turning to Shikantaza Zazen, a practice of zen introduced by Dogen Zenji considered mostly tied in with the Soto school of Zen Buddhism

even in that little collection the whole notion and concept of what a faith is, what it's about, why it's around, and its main goals can vary greatly..

but as I also pointed out in my post before, many of the core ideologies behind other faiths are mis-interpreted in the west as to describe some of them, they had to be...." paraphrased in a way that is easier to understand)

 

[Spacelord]

I find this to be very accurate!
Its this sort of thing that sticks me in a sort of middle ground, agnostic frame of mind. It becomes apparent that neither side can answer the question, or come up with anything that can't be ripped to shreds by a counter-argument. It simply leaves everything as a very complicated mess of viewpoints.

Meanwhile OP is racking up quite a post count in his thread.

 

[brainfreeze215]

you know, I think people need religion. Life sucks, who am I to tell you that there's no reward for it? If it keeps people going, then we're better off for it. What I don't like is when religion is used not as motivation, but as a controlling agent to keep people and their thoughts in line. Which is why I'm all about religion and spirituality, but not about organized religion. I was raised Catholic, so naturally I rebelled against that. I'm not an athiest, I still believe in some higher power, just not in the same way that I'm "supposed" to.

 

[Baby Tea]

Meanwhile OP is racking up quite a post count in his thread.

Normally I'd agree, but to hear (read?) you and Fragamoo both say that they've become a bit more understanding about people with a faith, I'd say it's worth it! Besides! There seems to be some good, healthy conversation going on with legitimate questions being asked and answered respectfully! Why mess with a good thing?

And double besides: What does the OP get? A badge? Who cares, right?

But really, these past few posts I'm made in this thread have probably been the first in a long time that I've made where I wasn't defending my faith, or right to faith, from total ignorance. It's actually really nice! Who knew you could have a normal conversation on the internet?

you know, I think people need religion. Life sucks, who am I to tell you that there's no reward for it? If it keeps people going, then we're better off for it. What I don't like is when religion is used not as motivation, but as a controlling agent to keep people and their thoughts in line. Which is why I'm all about religion and spirituality, but not about organized religion. I was raised Catholic, so naturally I rebelled against that. I'm not an athiest, I still believe in some higher power, just not in the same way that I'm "supposed" to.

You know it's funny, because Jesus referred to the 'Church' as the collective of the believers, not as a big organized corporation. Unified, for sure, but not uniform. And now what do we have? Huge mega-churches and 'Christian' organizations that rake in more money then I'll ever see in my life-time, and at the same time: more world poverty and hunger then I could ever fathom in my lifetime.
Seems like some people are missing the point.

 

[Fraeir]

God allows bad things to happen because we have asked Him to step out of our lives and just leave us alone. Therefore, He has stepped out. Why should we tell Him to back off and then when bad things happen, ask Him to help us?

I've heard this one as well, and before I start, I'm by far not the brightest light in the room, to say it bluntly. But yeah, what I wonder is, that if that's what people did, how come you still worship him? I'd ask that if God is all-powerful and omnipotent, why would he give a crap whether your worship him or not?

If he's only going to save the "believers" from the "Rapture" (Or that's what the Americans call it), doesn't that make him quite similar to the tyrannical bastards most humans have grown to... not like? It doesn't sound like a benevolent, fantastic ruler in my ears, hence I decided to become an Atheist xD;

What I can say positively about religion as a whole, is that it gives some people meaning, and if it makes them feel more secure about life, and happier (as long as they don't go on a "God wills it!" spree) I don't care what they believe. As long as they don't try to convert me. xD
To me, there is no meaning in life; to me, we're all here by mere chance, and so.. I find life rather empty, so I've made it -my- meaning in life: It is what you make of it
This can be dangerous in the wrong heads... religious or not, however I do live by the Christian lifestyle (don't kill, steal, etc.), though I do not believe in a higher power at all.

 

[StarStruckStrumpets]

Religion is a very touchy issue. I guess i'm atheist, I find the concept of an almighty being too fantastical to comprehend. This may incline that I am too weak minded and choose not to think about religion, this is not the case. There are certain things that I question which...really make sense. I mean, from a christian point of view, God gave us free will, but to follow the story of Adam and Eve, technically it was Satan who gave us free will, for free will requires knowledge of good and evil, which we as humans would not have had if Satan had not persuaded them to take the fruit, and nobody can say that taking the fruit was an act of evil, because all we knew before eating the fruit was good, therefore everything was good and there was no evil, so how were we supposed to know that we were doing something wrong?

If any Christian has an answer, I will listen. I'm not trying to flame, merely trying to understand.

Well, so long as you're trying to understand and willing to have a civil and respectful conversation: Free will can certainly exist without the knowledge of good or evil. Morality can't, free will can. And that's an important distinction. In a lot of games today (Take Fable as an example) the idea of 'free will' is completely centered around morality, which is a pretty narrow view of free will. Free will extends to the mundane and neutral, as well as the important and moral. So while morality can certainly tie itself up with free will, it isn't required for the existence of free will. Simply: The absence of the knowledge of good and evil doesn't mean that good and evil don't exist.

Therefore keep in mind that the tree was called the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It wasn't 'The Tree of Good and Evil', but 'The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil'. Good and evil already existed, and that's shown by Satan even being there and tempting Eve. Satan is an evil guy, but if good and evil didn't exist then he couldn't have tempted them to directly disobey God. And we know that's bad, since God got pretty ticked at him afterward. If it wasn't bad, God wouldn't have gotten ticked. Plus, when Satan was tempting Eve, he said the fruit would 'make you like God, knowing good from evil'. If both God and Satan (Since he know about it too) were able to discern from good and evil, then they must have already been in existence.

So, from a Christian perspective: God did give us free will, and Satan tempted us (successfully) to use that free will to directly disobey God which brought about the knowledge to do evil. Thus, sin entered mankind.

I'm not like some of the theist-bashing people here, I'll respect peoples opinions, I guess then that...if Good and Evil are the foundations for Morality, then the decision to take the fruit from the 'The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil' was a moral choice, because Good and Evil already existed...so it was not a case of free will being given, but morality being given. I get it now, if i'm right it saying what i'm saying.

 

[Baby Tea]

I'm not like some of the theist-bashing people here, I'll respect peoples opinions

Great! Always can use more of those! I'm not looking for converts, just some understanding. If you can offer that, then welcome indeed!

I guess then that...if Good and Evil are the foundations for Morality, then the decision to take the fruit from the 'The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil' was a moral choice, because Good and Evil already existed...so it was not a case of free will being given, but morality being given. I get it now, if i'm right it saying what i'm saying.

In a sense, yes. I'd say there are some greater theological implications here, but, for the basic idea of the situation, I'd say you've got it.

 

[StarStruckStrumpets]

I'm not like some of the theist-bashing people here, I'll respect peoples opinions

Great! Always can use more of those! I'm not looking for converts, just some understanding. If you can offer that, then welcome indeed!

I guess then that...if Good and Evil are the foundations for Morality, then the decision to take the fruit from the 'The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil' was a moral choice, because Good and Evil already existed...so it was not a case of free will being given, but morality being given. I get it now, if i'm right it saying what i'm saying.

In a sense, yes. I'd say there are some greater theological implications here, but, for the basic idea of the situation, I'd say you've got it.

Thank you for that, I'm more educated now
I'm very interested in Religion, it facinates me.

 

[Baby Tea]

Thank you for that, I'm more educated now
I'm very interested in Religion, it facinates me.

No problem! Always glad to help.
And yeah, religion, theology and philosophy are interests of mine as well!
And, really, religion in general has affected a huge part of human history, so there is plenty to learn about.

 

[the1ringer]

This is my first time posting on something unrelated to March Mayhem on this site, and it looks like this thread is a bit more respectful and less hateful than the Turbine/Valve thread atm. So I thought, since some are telling me that the march mayhem threads are bad examples of this community I thought I would try another subject.

I am an evangelical calvinistic Christian.

I believe in a real, personal God. I believe He created the entire universe ex nihilo by the Word of His Power in a literal 6 days. I believe He is Holy, and so He cannot abide sin so He must punish it, because He is also Just. When we sin it is like slapping God in the face. We sin against an infinite and eternal God, and must be punished. I believe that mankind is totally depraved, and I believe in original sin. I do not believe we can save ourselves, I believe that we are only saved from our own evil selves by God's grace alone, through faith, through the merits of Christ's righteousness alone, and not be any meritorious contribution of man's. I believe in the literal interpretation of Scripture and the plenary, verbal inspiration of the Bible.

I humbly submit (as I am as much a sinner as any) to those who question God's Omnipotence, Wisdom, or Holiness because of suffering, that the question should be, "Why would a good God allow my evil to exist?"

I also think Christianity is different from every other religion in monumental ways.

This is a VERY brief summary of my beliefs, and I respectfully welcome the chance to discuss and defend them, or answer questions. I believe Christianity is a rational explanation of our world that is not unreasonable and is not "blind faith." I have yet to encounter a real problem with it that is not answered quickly and satisfactorily by other scholars who have gone before me.

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

Everyone wants to feel that their universe is in some sort of control. I say, when you get right down to it, we're all the same no matter what our beliefs.