Piracy Outpacing Sales by 4:1, Says U.K. Game Body

[Delusibeta]

Once again, I'll wheel out my estimate that 0.01% of pirated copies are lost sales. However, if deth2munkies' second point is accurate, I'll probably have to revise that down.

thats irrelevant. Your saying that your money is more important than those who paid for the product if you pirate(aimed at pirates not you in particular).

No, I'm saying "piracy figures are irrelevant, and stop getting your knickers in a twist about them".

 

[Jodah]

Losing sales due to people who wouldn't buy the game in the first place? Okay, Michael, whatever you say...

Why are they playing the game if they had no intention of buying it?

You ever watch a mediocre movie on television that you would never pay for if you had to? I know I have. Most people have. Its the same concept. The only difference is that the movie producer (or whoever gets the money) gets something from the advertisements, so they don't complain like game developers do. It still doesn't cost YOU anything directly.

OT : As many have said if a game is good, people will buy it. Most of those pirated copies are not lost sales for reasons already mentioned. Publishers need to get away from the "prevent piracy by trying to punish them" mentality and more towards the "lets reward legitimate consumers with free stuff" mentality.

 

[sosolidshoe]

"My position is clear, there can be no justification of unauthorized 'sharing' or pirate sales," he said. "The industry should never support or condone this on the basis of any potential or perceived 'marketing' upside."

Translation: Even if the research which we have commissioned is done honestly and not tailored to our pre-conceived conclusions, and even if that research were to support the anecdotal evidence that piracy can often increase sales of niche products, or if it shows that piracy has no real impact on the commercial aspect of the games industry, we will STILL use it as a handy excuse for poor sales when cash-obsessed publishers rush out buggy, unfinished or overpriced products, because to admit that the games industry has grown massively over the years in spite of vastly increasing rates of piracy, and that often games sell poorly because they're just shit games, would mean the industry would have to change it's practices, and we can't have that.

 

[RichardThompson]

Piracy Outpacing Sales by 4:1, Says U.K. Game Body...
...Figuring out the real cost of piracy is a tricky job because there are so many variables at play, not to mention the fact that people might be inclined to be less than honest about taking part in what is essentially a dishonest activity. The matter is further complicated by cases like that of Daniel Amitay, the creator of the iPhone game Punch 'Em!, who recently attributed a big, sustained jump in his sales to increased rates of illegal copying. Rawlinson said the UKIE is commissioning further research into the issue to try to come up with a better understanding of the impact of piracy but cautioned against using anecdotes like Amitray's to justify it.

How about this for a headline ?
http://www.gamepolitics.com/2011/01/25/indie-developer-piracy-helped-sell-my-game

Was the original article tl;dr or did you think repetition was the way to go? I've put it in there to save you the trouble.

 

[Baresark]

I love how many of them will say "oh I am poor" or some shit excuse for piracy.
its either that or "hurr those devs didnt do everything i like they dont deserve my money" yet they still make a good enough game to invest time in apparently.
God I hate pirates.

Just for fun:
There is actually a lot of statistics that link poverty and crime.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

4:1 implies that out of 5 copies, 20% will be legitimate. ("For ea 1, create 4")
That means: For each legitimate purchase, at most, 1 sale can be attributed to post-piracy purchases.

To be more clear: For every "Try and buy pirate", there are at least 3 other pirates who never paid. And this model mathematically assumes that EVERYONE who bought legitimately pirated it first, which obviously isn't the case; because there are obviously customers who never pirated the game first before buying it. They just bought it regularly.

While I cannot state what percentage of "try and buy" pirates actually justify their claims by purchasing after the fact, I can say that the percentage (based on the 4:1 ratio provided) is less than 25% (among the pirate part of the proportion); and it's probably FAR less than that.

That's assuming a pirate will buy a copy of each game they pirate.

I don't pirate games (had some given back in the Amiga era but never bothered since that time) but know people who do download illegal copies etc. They tend to accumulate quite a collection (many of which will go unplayed) and would never be able to buy legit copies of all those games.

So they may have several pirated games, 1 of which they eventually buy a legit copy of. Do those others count as lost sales? Probably not because if someone obtains a dozen pirated games one week and goes onto buy one, they usually couldn't afford to buy legit copies of the 11 other games, even if they thought all those games were worth buying.

I'm still not convinced piracy, by and large, represents loss to the industy - at least amateur level piracy. Counterfeiting I have now doubt does, I'm not sure to what extent pirated games are passed off and sold as the actual product but I'm sure it does happen now and again.

I think the average pirate, one who downloads off torrents or copies a disk, has to face a moral question personally over whether they think it's right to get something for free if they think it's actually worth the asking price but I don't think it's the industy destroyer it's made out to be.

 

[Baresark]

I love how many of them will say "oh I am poor" or some shit excuse for piracy.
its either that or "hurr those devs didnt do everything i like they dont deserve my money" yet they still make a good enough game to invest time in apparently.
God I hate pirates.

Just for fun:
There is actually a lot of statistics that link poverty and crime.

Difference between people commiting crimes to get money for thier family/food/rent and a luxery item. Games are luxery items.

Just to keep it going:
Now you are confusing morals and law. There is no moral basis for laws in general, the moral basis exists separate from the laws that enforce them. It's not excusable to steal, no matter the situation. And the vast majority of the time, people who habitually commit immoral crimes such as theft do not do it because they need to feed or provide for anyone. People do not habitually steal food or any necessary item. Take post Hurricane Katrina and looters as an example. The majority didn't steal items to survive, only luxury items they wanted. The same can be said for violent break out during the Watts Riots way back in the day. Looters stole lots of things, the majority of the time nothing necessary, but only items they wanted.

 

[chozo_hybrid]

I think more people need to watch the Extra Credits video on piracy, I found myself agreeing with everything they said.

 

[Baresark]

I love how many of them will say "oh I am poor" or some shit excuse for piracy.
its either that or "hurr those devs didnt do everything i like they dont deserve my money" yet they still make a good enough game to invest time in apparently.
God I hate pirates.

Just for fun:
There is actually a lot of statistics that link poverty and crime.

Difference between people commiting crimes to get money for thier family/food/rent and a luxery item. Games are luxery items.

Just to keep it going:
Now you are confusing morals and law. There is no moral basis for laws in general, the moral basis exists separate from the laws that enforce them. It's not excusable to steal, no matter the situation. And the vast majority of the time, people who habitually commit immoral crimes such as theft do not do it because they need to feed or provide for anyone. People do not habitually steal food or any necessary item. Take post Hurricane Katrina and looters as an example. The majority didn't steal items to survive, only luxury items they wanted. The same can be said for violent break out during the Watts Riots way back in the day. Looters stole lots of things, the majority of the time nothing necessary, but only items they wanted.

And ? Some people do steal what they need. I dont knpw how looter taking TVs and crap proves that wrong. If you steal something you dont need its wrong, simple as. And stealing something you need is only justifiable if you cant get it legally e.g if someone in a 3rd world contry steas food to feed thier family, thats fine. But piritaing a game is never needed, therefore priacy is always wrong. I have no idea where you were going with this discussion when replying because you can never justift Piracy, so it didnt really have a point.

You missed my point. You cannot condone theft in one case and not condone it in another case. Both cases are morally reprehensible. If I live in the that third world country, and I worked for 17 hours for that loaf of bread, then my neighbor steals it from me. It is morally reprehensible that he did that. Then I cannot feed myself and my family so I can work for 17 more hours for another loaf of bread. I bring up the other stuff only because the vast majority of the time, theft is not for necessities, and the few times it is does not excuse the act.

In the grand scheme of things, you had said that the excuse of not having money is not a reason for piracy. I simply said that there is a link between poverty and crime rates. You then said it was excusable for theft if it was to feed your family. I said it's not really excusable because theft in any situation is immoral.

AND.... SCENE! Haha, I'm just having fun. Don't be insulted.

 

[viranimus]

/facepalm.
Again? Really? Ok... Unless there is some sort of news on the piracy war, say as one side winning could we possibly cut back on the never ending piracy articles?

And as for "I guess the pirates werent buying after all" and "this is why games cost so much" and "this is killing the industry because its stealing the food out of the mouths of developers" All I can say is.. I might be inclined to believe these figures if it wasnt for the insanely easy to research fact that this organization is a paid lobbyist firm for the publishers.

Meaning they are paid to say whatever the people who sign their paychecks tell them to say and to drum up statistical proof to validate it. And as we all know 87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot. And while were at it, lets not bother to mention how lobbyist organizations such as these have been identified to actually proliferate copies of pirated files themselves for several reasons, like making piracy numbers look inflated, to track how many are actually pirating ,to follow litigation measures against those they catch and even in some cases to corrupt and damage computers that are downloading.

Imagine a paid lobbyist group painting a picture to make their benefactors enemies look infinitely more villainous than what they actually are. Noooo... that could never happen.

So yeah, we all know already. Piracy IS bad. But seriously do we need to hear about it every other day with unreliable sources and exaggerated claims? Who is the industry trying to convince? Us or themselves?

 

[Lord_Jaroh]

More content industry ass pulled numbers.

Imagine he was talking about books and libraries instead of games and downloading:

"For every book purchased from a store 10 are checked out from a library. This 'sharing' costs the publishing industry umpteenbrazillion dollars every year according to a study we paid people do it. The only sensible conclusion is to shut down all libraries or else there will be no more books written evar!"

HAHA, GLORIOUS! Well said my friend, well said.

His analogy actually works....if those 10 books came from the aether.
You might not be aware of this, but libraries buy books too.

...so does the pirate that put up the torrent in the first place. The analogy is still accurate.

 

[Baresark]

I love how many of them will say "oh I am poor" or some shit excuse for piracy.
its either that or "hurr those devs didnt do everything i like they dont deserve my money" yet they still make a good enough game to invest time in apparently.
God I hate pirates.

Just for fun:
There is actually a lot of statistics that link poverty and crime.

Difference between people commiting crimes to get money for thier family/food/rent and a luxery item. Games are luxery items.

Just to keep it going:
Now you are confusing morals and law. There is no moral basis for laws in general, the moral basis exists separate from the laws that enforce them. It's not excusable to steal, no matter the situation. And the vast majority of the time, people who habitually commit immoral crimes such as theft do not do it because they need to feed or provide for anyone. People do not habitually steal food or any necessary item. Take post Hurricane Katrina and looters as an example. The majority didn't steal items to survive, only luxury items they wanted. The same can be said for violent break out during the Watts Riots way back in the day. Looters stole lots of things, the majority of the time nothing necessary, but only items they wanted.

And ? Some people do steal what they need. I dont knpw how looter taking TVs and crap proves that wrong. If you steal something you dont need its wrong, simple as. And stealing something you need is only justifiable if you cant get it legally e.g if someone in a 3rd world contry steas food to feed thier family, thats fine. But piritaing a game is never needed, therefore priacy is always wrong. I have no idea where you were going with this discussion when replying because you can never justift Piracy, so it didnt really have a point.

You missed my point. You cannot condone theft in one case and not condone it in another case. Both cases are morally reprehensible. If I live in the that third world country, and I worked for 17 hours for that loaf of bread, then my neighbor steals it from me. It is morally reprehensible that he did that. Then I cannot feed myself and my family so I can work for 17 more hours for another loaf of bread. I bring up the other stuff only because the vast majority of the time, theft is not for necessities, and the few times it is does not excuse the act.

In the grand scheme of things, you had said that the excuse of not having money is not a reason for piracy. I simply said that there is a link between poverty and crime rates. You then said it was excusable for theft if it was to feed your family. I said it's not really excusable because theft in any situation is immoral.

AND.... SCENE! Haha, I'm just having fun. Don't be insulted.

There are no absolutes. Thats like saying killing is always wrong despite if someone did it in self defence.

That is a completely different case. I am a firm believer in the axiom of non-violence. This philosophy dictates that you do no harm to others unless they have tried to harm you, then you defend yourself as far as you honestly see fit. Then there are other circumstances to consider as well in regards to that, but those are mostly personal, such as whether killing them was necessary and such things, but that is for you conscience to decide. Theft is always theft though. You must take something that belongs to another, that is always morally reprehensible. Theft is an absolute because it is always taking from others. Others may not eat because you are eating. Self defense is way different, and if you want to put the word of law into it, some places don't even allow you to really defend yourself.

 

[incal11]

Well, as I said, your not going to be stealing food from the Dev's under any circumstances, they have already been paid, they got paid all through while the game was being made. The person who gets hurt is the producer in most cases, and given that there is no shortage of funding for games right now these guys aren't being hurt, they are just not making as much money as they might like.

That said, stealing is still stealing, irregardless of how shady the gaming industry is, or who the producers might be, the bottom line is that someone paid for that product and put it out on the market.

You certainly got a point here, even non-gamer moguls who only care about profits deserve reconnaissance for occasionally funding something worthwhile.
Still it does not negate what I said, no harm done: no less profits for companies, noone's hurt. Well, except maybe in feelings, only it's my opinion such feelings are largely misguided.

Was the original article tl;dr or did you think repetition was the way to go? I've put it in there to save you the trouble.

I meant that the one about the indie dev would have made a better headline, sorry I wasn't clear enough about that. After all the escapist shares its headlines with gamepolitics, or at least it's sources, quite often.
It's not the first time I see inconvenient evidences being dismissed as "anecdotal", anyway time will tell.

 

[Unrulyhandbag]

There are no absolutes. Thats like saying killing is always wrong despite if someone did it in self defence.

I'll quite happily say that. Killing another intelligent being is wrong - even if you save your life you do it at the expense of another. Better to die with clean hands than live with that , it's utter unconscionable.
I'm not just saying that, something made me think this way and, when I realised, I left the military. Faced with a life and death situation I will probably be at the mercy of my more primal aspects and if I did what was necessary to defend, I am unlikely to forgive myself.

Baresark was right all theft is wrong even if you save your life you do it at the expense of another, usually someone within your own community probably living in similar conditions.

Piracy exists for several reasons: some because it's easy and free others because it's actually better product. Some because large slow to react companies not providing their product in a useful form or in particular territories and some are taking a stand against the ridiculously one sided copyright laws.
No matter the reason; it is morally wrong to take the efforts of another without in some way rewarding them and societally it is a criminal offence to copy anothers work ad re-distribute it without express permission.

The thing is everyone knows it's wrong but they do it anyway, that tells us there is either something wrong with the distribution system that makes it feel right or negligable to deprive the creator their dues or something wrong with the society that has made them criminals for an act that a majority of citizens involved in computer games would perform.