Playing as a female character usually annoys me.

[Treblaine]

See that's why I think your views should be dismissed as bigoted sexism, because regardless of actualities you just don't like the idea of women kicking ass regardless of how real or unreal the justification is.

This opinion is clearly wrong when to held to reckoning against a number of other posts I have made throughout this thread. I already said I loved Samus Aran and Linda Hamilton in T2. I even went on to say that I would accept a woman filling a man's role in an unaltered way if she at least LOOKED like a woman strong enough to do it. My problem is not with women kicking ass, it's with skinny supermodels kicking ass and talking trash in the same way a man would do it.

Well you could have made that clear in your original post! Frankly it just feels like back-tracking.

I expect a woman to be suitably built and the transformation for Lidna Hamilton from la:

to qua

Shows that how much is in the mind and how much is physical.

You just need the right pressure, the character Sarah Connor needed fear of impending apocalypse. Linda Hamilton just needed a psychotic director! Yeah, apparently James Cameron is a bit intense, he is talented but no director is harder on his actors and crew than Cameron.

If they aren't built - EITHER GENDER - that pisses me off but only as much as other "weedy" characters like MGS2's Raiden or that sparkly vampire from Twilight.

 

[The_Vigilant]

As for the pickle jar...don't tell you me you people haven't seen your mom, aunt, sister, etc. put a jar under hot water that you or your father could have popped open with two fingers. Usually it's jelly. Or strawberry preserves. Not pickles.

 

[Kargathia]

My problem is not with women kicking ass, it's with skinny supermodels kicking ass and talking trash in the same way a man would do it.

I'd actually be interested if they'd gave you the choice to play a well-muscled female protagonist, but even though I can't help but object to the second part of that statement in many, many ways I'll just point out the obvious one.

Doing two completely different sets of dialogue for male and female would mean a lot of extra developing time spent on just that.
I'd rather they'd use that limited resource on actually improving the game.

On the whole I'm still amused though that in a game involving faster-than-light travelling it's specifically the female violations of natural laws that break your immersion.

And just so I can get this out of the way, and would be able to continue a meaningful discussion after getting this off my chest: I still think you're a twat.

Have a nice day.

 

[Voxgizer]

And as for you army reference, I say PFFT! I did the application process for West Point, and you know what? The physical test expectations are dramatically higher for men than women. A guy who performs sightly under male averages will be frowned upon by the decision committee while a woman who performs at EXACTLY the same level would be applauded.

That's because women aren't allowed to take part in combat.

http://www.slate.com/id/2119241/

I questioned my brother on the subject awhile ago as he's much more knowledgeable than I am about how the military works. He summed it up as the military seeing men shut in together during combat (trenches, holding a specific area, that type of thing) that there's no sense of sexual attraction.

Now, you toss a woman into that mix and there's the chance for the attraction, possible abuse, or worse.

Aaaaand that's how it was explained to me.

 

[WitherVoice]

Okay, so, reading through a bit more, and I think I can make you sound like a bit less of a troll or sexist douche. Try this:

Let's see...how can I say this without sounding like a troll or a sexist douche? Hmm...

I find it really annoying when writers are too lazy or inept to portray a female character differently than they portray a male character. I also have a vastly inflated opinion on the importance of brute strength, and do not believe that you can force multiply ad absurdium, making the starting point largely irrelevant.

There - I expressed myself. I'll turtle up until VoD.

 

[Torrasque]

I'm sorry, but you're an idiot if you think are you are better than a female, just because you're a guy.

It's a shame you commented without reading the post. You might have saved yourself from looking stupid. This is precisely the point I took time to indicate that I was not making. I was pretty specific.

And by the way, I love the Metroid games and I'm totally happy with Samus Aran. She succeeds with the judicious application of technology and problem solving, not physical dominance.

I know all kinds of hard women. My family's full of them: soldiers, construction workers, marathon runners, trainers, etc. I'm stronger and faster than every one of them. That's not because I'm a superhuman, it's because I'm a man and they're women. Hell, most women can't get the cap off a jar of pickles without a rubber grip. Not only are women smaller and weaker, but they are equipped with estrogen-induced behavioral traits while EVERY adventure storyline is driven by testosterone-induced behavioral traits. This just adds to the jarring discord that occurs when an action protagonist is female, usually in the form of her dialogue, which, even if the words are right, is just too high pitched to carry the weight of threat or conviction.

Explain to me what you meant by this.
Because it seems pretty cut-and-dry "I think I am better than them", exactly like I said.
This single paragraph is what turned my "ok, lets see what he has to say" into "wow, another one of these fags"
So go ahead, tell me why I am wrong.

 

[The_Vigilant]

I'm sorry, but you're an idiot if you think are you are better than a female, just because you're a guy.

It's a shame you commented without reading the post. You might have saved yourself from looking stupid. This is precisely the point I took time to indicate that I was not making. I was pretty specific.

And by the way, I love the Metroid games and I'm totally happy with Samus Aran. She succeeds with the judicious application of technology and problem solving, not physical dominance.

I know all kinds of hard women. My family's full of them: soldiers, construction workers, marathon runners, trainers, etc. I'm stronger and faster than every one of them. That's not because I'm a superhuman, it's because I'm a man and they're women. Hell, most women can't get the cap off a jar of pickles without a rubber grip. Not only are women smaller and weaker, but they are equipped with estrogen-induced behavioral traits while EVERY adventure storyline is driven by testosterone-induced behavioral traits. This just adds to the jarring discord that occurs when an action protagonist is female, usually in the form of her dialogue, which, even if the words are right, is just too high pitched to carry the weight of threat or conviction.

Explain to me what you meant by this.
Because it seems pretty cut-and-dry "I think I am better than them", exactly like I said.
This single paragraph is what turned my "ok, lets see what he has to say" into "wow, another one of these fags"
So go ahead, tell me why I am wrong.

You're wrong because I made that statement specifically in regards to my strength and speed which are nearly irrelevant measures of a person's worth. Women are better at many things than men. My own girlfriend is better than me at foreign language, poetry, visual arts, cooking, and even math. She will always be better than me at those things. However, she will never be faster or stronger than me. If I were homosexual and my partner were a male of equal size, I would not be so confident saying that, despite my (good) physical condition. That's just a matter of biology and statistics.

Which part of that is a claim that men are "better" than women?

 

[Logan Westbrook]

I have complete respect for the female of our species.

You have a funny way of showing it.

I don't know you, so I can only go off what's in front of me. Your post does not read like someone who has even the slightest bit of respect for women. If anything, the fact that out of all the ridiculous and unrealistic things in videogames, this is the one you chose to write about, implies exactly the opposite.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, you need to really consider how you express your opinions in the future, because you're making yourself look like something - and someone - you're not.

 

[The_Vigilant]

I have complete respect for the female of our species.

You have a funny way of showing it.

I don't know you, so I can only go off what's in front of me. Your post does not read like someone who has even the slightest bit of respect for women. If anything, the fact that out of all the ridiculous and unrealistic things in videogames, this is the one you chose to write about, implies exactly the opposite.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, you need to really consider how you express your opinions in the future, because you're making yourself look like something - and someone - you're not.

I chose this topic because it's so persistent. Not every game or movie requires us to suspend disbelief regarding mass effect generators. Or Platform 9 and Three Quarters. Or midichlorians. But it feels like I am continually required to accept tough talking 40 kilo warrior women. And unlike mass effect generators, platform nine and three quarters, and midichlorians, tough talking warrior women add nothing to the enjoyment of the fantasy. It's nonsense for the sake of...well, I don't know, that's what I'm trying to find out.

 

[Treblaine]

As for the pickle jar...don't tell you me you people haven't seen your mom, aunt, sister, etc. put a jar under hot water that you or your father could have popped open with two fingers. Usually it's jelly. Or strawberry preserves. Not pickles.

Ah, the old jam-jar myth.

See taking the stiff lid off a jar has little to do with strength, the actual torque needed is very small. The problem is the grip, it is HOW you grip and twist it, not the size of the biceps. Your grip WILL weaken over seconds of struggling if it doesn't open with the first twist, struggling further won't do any more good. You cannot "loosen it".

This is where I think men and women differ, not in the Body but in the Mind.

Women tend to be more careful and efficient, I have seen them they will try to "ease" the lid off then try to struggle more and more. But the lid will only move when it comes loose, it isn't getting any looser and anyone - male or female - their grip gets weaker the more they struggle.

Men tend to prefer outbursts of energy, they will try to just snap the lid off in one swift yank. That's just bias, when women know the futility of trying to "ease" a jar lid off and that they must consciously do what men tend to do anyway then they don't have this problem. But that's just biased attitudes can change easily and are not inherent.

The main difference is weight lifting/moving but that is mainly down to how men tend to build more muscle than women and also tend to me taller.

Man and woman of same height who both lift for the same muscle mass will be very similar in capability. Slight bias in men due to fast/slow twitch muscle fibres

PS: you boast of being stronger than a female associate who is a construction worker. But you later say you are a body builder who takes specific muscle building supplements. That is not a fair comparison, the strength training needed to be a construction worker is very different from one who is on an intensive muscle building program. Try working all day with that much muscle mass and it will atrophy. Also women are highly discouraged by social pressures from bulking up with muscle which is harder for them to put on as well.

Most muscle training focuses on strength for burst of energy, like 12 reps of very high weight. Not equivalent of 200 reps of moderately high weight for a 9-till-5 job.

 

[The_Vigilant]

As for the pickle jar...don't tell you me you people haven't seen your mom, aunt, sister, etc. put a jar under hot water that you or your father could have popped open with two fingers. Usually it's jelly. Or strawberry preserves. Not pickles.

Ah, the old jam-jar myth.

See taking the stiff lid off a jar has little to do with strength, the actual torque needed is very small. The problem is the grip, it is HOW you grip and twist it, not the size of the biceps. Your grip WILL weaken over seconds of struggling if it doesn't open with the first twist, struggling further won't do any more good. You cannot "loosen it".

This is where I think men and women differ, not in the Body but in the Mind.

Women tend to be more careful and efficient, I have seen them they will try to "ease" the lid off then try to struggle more and more. But the lid will only move when it comes loose, it isn't getting any looser and anyone - male or female - their grip gets weaker the more they struggle.

Men tend to prefer outbursts of energy, they will try to just snap the lid off in one swift yank. That's just bias, when women know the futility of trying to "ease" a jar lid off and that they must consciously do what men tend to do anyway then they don't have this problem. But that's just biased attitudes can change easily and are not inherent.

The main difference is weight lifting/moving but that is mainly down to how men tend to build more muscle than women and also tend to me taller.

Man and woman of same height who both lift for the same muscle mass will be very similar in capability. Slight bias in men due to fast/slow twitch muscle fibres

PS: you boast of being stronger than a female associate who is a construction worker. But you later say you are a body builder who takes specific muscle building supplements. That is not a fair comparison, the strength training needed to be a construction worker is very different from one who is on an intensive muscle building program. Try working all day with that much muscle mass and it will atrophy. Also women are highly discouraged by social pressures from bulking up with muscle which is harder for them to put on as well.

Most muscle training focuses on strength for burst of energy, like 12 reps of very high weight. Not equivalent of 200 reps of moderately high weight for a 9-till-5 job.

Some of what you say is true, some of it isn't. For one, a strong grip (which does have to do with brute strength and not technique) makes opening the jar easier because it prevents your hand from sliding over the surface by increasing the opposing force of friction. So in this case, the strength of your hand and forearm are relevant, even if bicep strength isn't.

Another fallacy is the idea that continuous exercise will reduce mass. You won't lose a single ounce of muscle if you supply your body with adequate complex carbs, protein, and sleep. Obviously, working the 9 to 5 will require more of that than a couple hours of lifting, but the principle in practice is the same.

Off-topic, but still interesting.

 

[Logan Westbrook]

...tough talking warrior women add nothing to the enjoyment of the fantasy...

It adds nothing to the enjoyment of the fantasy for you.

You don't like playing as a tough but slender woman, that's fine, but plenty of other people do. Sure, it's unrealistic, but videogames - not to mention movies, comics, TV shows, and pretty much any other medium you care to name - are rife with unrealistic protagonists, both male and female.

If I were you, I'd be asking myself why this particular bit of "nonsense" - to use your words - bothers you so much.

 

[Treblaine]

I have complete respect for the female of our species.

You have a funny way of showing it.

I don't know you, so I can only go off what's in front of me. Your post does not read like someone who has even the slightest bit of respect for women. If anything, the fact that out of all the ridiculous and unrealistic things in videogames, this is the one you chose to write about, implies exactly the opposite.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, you need to really consider how you express your opinions in the future, because you're making yourself look like something - and someone - you're not.

I chose this topic because it's so persistent. Not every game or movie requires us to suspend disbelief regarding mass effect generators. Or Platform 9 and Three Quarters. Or midichlorians. But it feels like I am continually required to accept tough talking 40 kilo warrior women.

All the time? Where are the implausibly combat-efficient females in these works?

Halo 1, 2, 3
Gears of War 1 & 2
Grand Theft Auto (every game)
Team Fortress 2
Call of Duty Modern Warfare 1 & 2, World at War and black Ops
Assassin's Creed 1, 2, Brotherhood
Duke Nukem Forever
Killzone 1, 2, 3
Vanquish
Red Dead Redemption
Splinter cell series
Metro 2033
Rainbow Six


It may seem like I am just listing all the major action games from recent years but I am in fact listing games with no female combatants.

You are pissed off by what is already and overwhelming minority acting as if it is endemic. That is pretty poor intolerance.

 

[Treblaine]

And as for you army reference, I say PFFT! I did the application process for West Point, and you know what? The physical test expectations are dramatically higher for men than women. A guy who performs sightly under male averages will be frowned upon by the decision committee while a woman who performs at EXACTLY the same level would be applauded.

That's because women aren't allowed to take part in combat.

http://www.slate.com/id/2119241/

I questioned my brother on the subject awhile ago as he's much more knowledgeable than I am about how the military works. He summed it up as the military seeing men shut in together during combat (trenches, holding a specific area, that type of thing) that there's no sense of sexual attraction.

Now, you toss a woman into that mix and there's the chance for the attraction, possible abuse, or worse.

Aaaaand that's how it was explained to me.

But what about gay men? What about how many people are somewhere on the bisexual spectrum? They have been in the military and it hasn't been such a problem.

If it worked to solve tensions of sexual attraction by segregating people by gender then there would never be any rape in prison... wait.

(FYI: most of the rape victims in prison are in fact gay men raped my men who self-identify as straight)

I think the issue goes beyond sexual attraction or lust. Me thinks it is societal conventions that all men and women hold regardless of sexual orientation.

 

[ChaosBorne]

Disclaimer: this message will probably anger some really naive people.

Ugh this thread is just embarrasing, all you PC twats needs to pull your heads out of your asses.
It's not that the OP object's to women in games as the protagonist, he object's to women equaling men when there is absolutely no physical evidence they should be able to, case in point all the chainmail bikini clad warrior women weighing in at 90 pounds swinging a sword around with the same effort (seemingly) that a 250 pound muscle bound man seems to exert to perform the same feat, because that is just retarded, they need to make the women in those games equal the men muscle wise to justify such feats. (or ofcourse make the men equal the women or maybe pick a middle-ground.)

Really all the people who are claiming that men and women are equal are just wrong because we aren't and we shouldn't want to be, men have simply evolved to fill a different role in society then women have and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, just get over yourselves already yes men are on average stronger and faster then women, women on the other hand are on average more agile and socially developed (just a few examples), these are the averages, the extremes are similarly skewed in favor of men or women in those genders strengths.

I am in no way saying that men and women don't deserve the same rights or anything like that though, just that men=women is a false statement.
Also neither gender is actually superieur to the other, both are equally important parts of our species.

That's all i really had to say about this.

 

[Torrasque]

I have complete respect for the female of our species.

You have a funny way of showing it.

I don't know you, so I can only go off what's in front of me. Your post does not read like someone who has even the slightest bit of respect for women. If anything, the fact that out of all the ridiculous and unrealistic things in videogames, this is the one you chose to write about, implies exactly the opposite.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, you need to really consider how you express your opinions in the future, because you're making yourself look like something - and someone - you're not.

I chose this topic because it's so persistent. Not every game or movie requires us to suspend disbelief regarding mass effect generators. Or Platform 9 and Three Quarters. Or midichlorians. But it feels like I am continually required to accept tough talking 40 kilo warrior women.

All the time? Where are the implausibly combat-efficient females in these works?

Halo 1, 2, 3

It may seem like I am just listing all the major action games from recent years but I am in fact listing games with no female combatants.

You are pissed off by what is already and overwhelming minority acting as if it is endemic. That is pretty poor intolerance.

there are plenty of girls in Halo, from useless marines, to Cortana and Captain Keyes' daughter (Miranda?). Not to mention Kat from Reach, and whats-her-face from ODST.
There are not many womens in fps games (there's also that girl in Bulletstorm) because... Hmm iono. I just wanna say its because guys are more stupid and likely to try and kill each other. Women will just make each other really good pies and sammiches /sarcasm

I'm sorry, but you're an idiot if you think are you are better than a female, just because you're a guy.

It's a shame you commented without reading the post. You might have saved yourself from looking stupid. This is precisely the point I took time to indicate that I was not making. I was pretty specific.

And by the way, I love the Metroid games and I'm totally happy with Samus Aran. She succeeds with the judicious application of technology and problem solving, not physical dominance.

I know all kinds of hard women. My family's full of them: soldiers, construction workers, marathon runners, trainers, etc. I'm stronger and faster than every one of them. That's not because I'm a superhuman, it's because I'm a man and they're women. Hell, most women can't get the cap off a jar of pickles without a rubber grip. Not only are women smaller and weaker, but they are equipped with estrogen-induced behavioral traits while EVERY adventure storyline is driven by testosterone-induced behavioral traits. This just adds to the jarring discord that occurs when an action protagonist is female, usually in the form of her dialogue, which, even if the words are right, is just too high pitched to carry the weight of threat or conviction.

Explain to me what you meant by this.
Because it seems pretty cut-and-dry "I think I am better than them", exactly like I said.
This single paragraph is what turned my "ok, lets see what he has to say" into "wow, another one of these fags"
So go ahead, tell me why I am wrong.

You're wrong because I made that statement specifically in regards to my strength and speed which are nearly irrelevant measures of a person's worth. Women are better at many things than men. My own girlfriend is better than me at foreign language, poetry, visual arts, cooking, and even math. She will always be better than me at those things. However, she will never be faster or stronger than me. If I were homosexual and my partner were a male of equal size, I would not be so confident saying that, despite my (good) physical condition. That's just a matter of biology and statistics.

Which part of that is a claim that men are "better" than women?

Oh ok, you just think in regards of combat, that men are better than women all the time no matter what. You're still an idiot for thinking that.
Yes most men are taller, larger, and have heavier muscle mass than females, but in regards to combat training, it is entirely person-to-person.
And like several people have said in regards to FemShep, the physical differences between MaleShep and FemShep are null and void due to genetic stimulation, body armor, guns, any other augumentation they choose to have, and spectre training. If you put a human (man or woman) through spectre training, and they made it through, they'd be super fucking badass.

I think I'll play more female toons in games, just for spite.

 

[Treblaine]

I have complete respect for the female of our species.

You have a funny way of showing it.

I don't know you, so I can only go off what's in front of me. Your post does not read like someone who has even the slightest bit of respect for women. If anything, the fact that out of all the ridiculous and unrealistic things in videogames, this is the one you chose to write about, implies exactly the opposite.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, you need to really consider how you express your opinions in the future, because you're making yourself look like something - and someone - you're not.

I chose this topic because it's so persistent. Not every game or movie requires us to suspend disbelief regarding mass effect generators. Or Platform 9 and Three Quarters. Or midichlorians. But it feels like I am continually required to accept tough talking 40 kilo warrior women.

All the time? Where are the implausibly combat-efficient females in these works?

Halo 1, 2, 3

It may seem like I am just listing all the major action games from recent years but I am in fact listing games with no female combatants.

You are pissed off by what is already and overwhelming minority acting as if it is endemic. That is pretty poor intolerance.

there are plenty of girls in Halo, from useless marines, to Cortana and Captain Keyes' daughter (Miranda?). Not to mention Kat from Reach, and whats-her-face from ODST.
There are not many womens in fps games (there's also that girl in Bulletstorm) because... Hmm iono. I just wanna say its because guys are more stupid and likely to try and kill each other. Women will just make each other really good pies and sammiches /sarcasm

Cortana and Miranda Keyes, both non-combat naggers. As commanders they were terribly written, they were not decisive nor leaders by any stretch. They just nagged the player to hurry up and point out obvious goals for Master Chief to follow.

Kat from Reach. I did say "Halo 1-3" not "Halo 1-3 + Reach", I also did not list Bulletstorm. The point is the overwhelming volume of works have no female representation at all, not that a few have token female characters who might occasionally use arms.

There are good examples; like The Boss (MGS3), Chell (Portal 2), Zoey (L4D), Big Sister (bioshock 2) but so few and far between I can't see the OP's concern that is so unreasonably no matter how common it is.

As to ODST, I have a PARTICULAR bone to pick with the depiction of "whats-her-face from ODST".

Veronica Dare, shouldn't be that hard to remember especially considering she was the COMMANDING OFFICER of the entire mission yet she is monumentally marginalised and continually insulted by her enlisted men. No one can say that a Male commander of the same rank in the Halo universe would (1) tolerate such treatment, and (2) ever be treated that way!

http://lesbiangamers.com/2009/09/halo-odst-one-discourse-into-sexism-and-tolerance-veronica-dare-halo-character/

Just imagine Jacob Keyes suffering the same indignity. Writers would never do that. Especially they would never write him to just stand there and take it.

When I first played through the game I got the distinct impression she was just "Buck's Girlfriend". Her character model could be put in civilian clothes and all the dialogue would have worked the same, you'd just have to add a single line mentioning she was a 'lost biology student' and it would have worked just the same.

I haven't played Reach yet, so I can't comment on Kat.

 

[Sordak]

usualy stick to male characters, might try a female in Diablo 3 for some reason i dont understand myself

 

[Torrasque]

I have complete respect for the female of our species.

You have a funny way of showing it.

I don't know you, so I can only go off what's in front of me. Your post does not read like someone who has even the slightest bit of respect for women. If anything, the fact that out of all the ridiculous and unrealistic things in videogames, this is the one you chose to write about, implies exactly the opposite.

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I am, you need to really consider how you express your opinions in the future, because you're making yourself look like something - and someone - you're not.

I chose this topic because it's so persistent. Not every game or movie requires us to suspend disbelief regarding mass effect generators. Or Platform 9 and Three Quarters. Or midichlorians. But it feels like I am continually required to accept tough talking 40 kilo warrior women.

All the time? Where are the implausibly combat-efficient females in these works?

Halo 1, 2, 3

It may seem like I am just listing all the major action games from recent years but I am in fact listing games with no female combatants.

You are pissed off by what is already and overwhelming minority acting as if it is endemic. That is pretty poor intolerance.

there are plenty of girls in Halo, from useless marines, to Cortana and Captain Keyes' daughter (Miranda?). Not to mention Kat from Reach, and whats-her-face from ODST.
There are not many womens in fps games (there's also that girl in Bulletstorm) because... Hmm iono. I just wanna say its because guys are more stupid and likely to try and kill each other. Women will just make each other really good pies and sammiches /sarcasm

Cortana and Miranda Keyes, both non-combat naggers. As commanders they were terribly written, they were not decisive nor leaders by any stretch. They just nagged the player to hurry up and point out obvious goals for Master Chief to follow.

Kat from Reach. I did say "Halo 1-3" not "Halo 1-3 + Reach", I also did not list Bulletstorm. The point is the overwhelming volume of works have no female representation at all, not that a few have token female characters who might occasionally use arms.

There are good examples; like The Boss (MGS3), Chell (Portal 2), Zoey (L4D), Big Sister (bioshock 2) but so few and far between I can't see the OP's concern that is so unreasonably no matter how common it is.

As to ODST, I have a PARTICULAR bone to pick with the depiction of "whats-her-face from ODST".

Veronica Dare, shouldn't be that hard to remember especially considering she was the COMMANDING OFFICER of the entire mission yet she is monumentally marginalised and continually insulted by her enlisted men. No one can say that a Male commander of the same rank in the Halo universe would (1) tolerate such treatment, and (2) ever be treated that way!

http://lesbiangamers.com/2009/09/halo-odst-one-discourse-into-sexism-and-tolerance-veronica-dare-halo-character/

Just imagine Jacob Keyes suffering the same indignity. Writers would never do that. Especially they would never write him to just stand there and take it.

When I first played through the game I got the distinct impression she was just "Buck's Girlfriend". Her character model could be put in civilian clothes and all the dialogue would have worked the same, you'd just have to add a single line mentioning she was a 'lost biology student' and it would have worked just the same.

I haven't played Reach yet, so I can't comment on Kat.

Hmm thats true. I never really cared much for her (obviously), and all I really cared about in Reach was following the fragmented storyline, and how Engineers are cute. I also liked the change from invincible spartan, to relatively weak ODST, but thats content for another thread. She really is Buck's girlfriend, and is pretty much being the princess peach of ODST. Certainly not a good example of a well-developed character, or the kind of girl that OP here hates so very much.

Kat however, is a very awesome character. She is the 2nd in command of Noble team, yet (something I think they did well) because of the Spartan command structure, it seems like is almost leading the team through Carter. At no point is Kat a "typical girl", and all that she does could have been done by a guy. But since its Kat, and since she actually has character, she's a good example of a female character done right.
And probably the kind of fem that OP loathes.
Damn female spartans being badass! If it weren't for their power armor, >20 years of insane military training, genetic engineering, and the fact thst their toting the same guns as the mens, they'd be so much weaker than the mens!
Oh wait...