Plot holes in "Avatar"

[TOGSolid]

Tech Level Error

Fact 1) Humans are capable of biologically constructing, in tanks, completely functional creatures which they can control remotely, seemingly without lag, over a suitable distance despite signal losses and noise.

Fact 2) Humans still send infantry into the field and control their war machines (both airborne and walkers) by putting people in them and putting lives at risk.

If your biotechnology and signal processing technology is enough to make the Avatar programme even possible from a control point of view then there's no way real people would be put in the field, unmanned aircraft and tanks/walkers would dominate.

Fact 3) Said warmachines are mechanical not biological.

If your biotech was of a level capable of constructing entire functional organisms from DNA you can bet your ass that the first thing the military would do would not be "make fake aliens to talk to the aliens" it'd be "make me a humanoid body as big and strong as an elephant"

I direct you to this passage out of Batman Begins:

Fox - Here we are. Nomex survival suit for advanced infantry. Kevlar biweave, reinforced joints.
Wayne - Tear-resistant?
Fox - This sucker will stop a knife.
Wayne - Bulletproof?
Fox - Anything but a straight shot.
Wayne - Why didn't they put it into production?
Fox - Bean counters didn't think a soldier's life was worth 300 grand.

This isn't directed at anyone specific, but it seems like a lot of everyone's "plot holes" are due to people not paying any god damned attention to the film. My Avatar review may help explain why! http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.164452

 

[JaymesFogarty]

Plot holes?
One for me is the fact that a human betrayed his fellow human to help aliens.
I personally don't understand why he would do it.

Because he liked the Na'vi more than the humans. Doesn't get more simple than that

He's a traitor in my opinion.

A traitor from a bad cause does not make a bad person.

So pretty much condemning the entire human race to death as a result of resource depletion does not make him a bad person?

Why don't the humans take resources from one of the billions of other planets in the galaxy with resources instead of the one with life on it? Besides, you heard what they were really after: money. The unobtainium sold for something like $20 milion a gram or some crazy figure. That's why they destroyed Home Tree, because it was sitting on an unobtainium deposit.

Am I the only one who notices the irony in trying to get a resource called "unobtainium" at all costs?

I saw it, ironic indeed.

On subject, the biggest disappointment in Avatar (not plot hole really) was the main soldier. (I can't remember his name, he was using to main character to gain information about the Na'avi.) His characterization was terrible, he was reeking of, "you will hate me as we progress through the story, and I will nearly kill the main character before dying dramatically," from the word go. Not really a plot hole, but something that I noticed.

 

[WaderiAAA]

I could not understand the concept of time versus travel. At the beginning of the movie, weren't most of the travelers in deep sleep? How long did the journey take? I thought it was one of those "sleep for years" trips, but the head of the corporation says that they must clear the area to start mining because they had months to show a profit? Who would know on earth? How would these stockholders find out when they would mine? How soon could they get this "mined unobtainable unobtainium" back to earth? If it would take a hundred years to get the mineral back to earth, who would care? This is playing like a circle in my mind.......

I guess this plot hole is unavoidable when making a movie from space. The only thinkable explanation I can come up with is the whole universe-bends-around-you theory. What if the ship is really running at 0.7 percent of lightspeed but due to the universe-bending thing it moves hundred times as fast. Then maybe a signal could be sent at a speed of 100c, which would take about 14 days?


They say "you have been asleep for five years and (Cant remember the number) months..."

And he had three months to get the Navi to move before the bulldozers showed up not before they had to show a profit

One has to assume that they can communicate at lightspeed (and/or instantaneously) and the ships cannot (thus they take a long time to travel)

Light speed is far from instantaneous. It is damn fast but it is still not instantaneous. 299,792,458 meters per second according to Wikipedia. And Alpha Centauri (The sun Pandora orbits according to Avatar Wiki) is about 4 and a half light years from our sun so the ship travels at about 70% the speed of light. (I am getting this from Wikipedia and James Camerons avatar wiki if you want to know my sources I could do the math myself but I am too lazy right now.) It is unknown if there is any method of exceeding the speed of light. Wormholes or quantum tunnels might do it but we cant produce the power to create artificial versions of those and physics hasn't even proven their existence yet. My guess is it would take 4 years for their reports to get back to earth. Radio waves like some other radiation on the electromagnetic spectrum (visible light and IR light etc not sure of microwaves or gamma radiation)travel at the speed of light. Isn't physics fun?

 

[Cherry Cola]

Plot holes?
One for me is the fact that a human betrayed his fellow human to help aliens.
I personally don't understand why he would do it.

Because he liked the Na'vi more than the humans. Doesn't get more simple than that

And the Na'vi are hot.

Hey, you were all thinking it. All I did was step out and say it.

There was no junk in that trunk. Na'vi need more booty.

 

[BringBackBuck]

So i saw Avatar last night and was very impressed. But i was a little confused as to why humans are still using case bullets in their weapons. I mean it is the year 2154 you would have thought there would be some innovation in weapons designes (i.e caseless rounds, laser or plasma weapons etc.) Also, knowing James Camerons experience in military shoot-em-up type movies, i would think he would at least tried to show some technological progress in weaponry.
The door gunners in the transports look like they are using M-60 machine guns, which at that point would be almost 200 years old, i know they are probably new and improved, but i was disappointed with the lack of futuristic weaponry.

Yeah thats a good point- perhaps they where trying to create a vietnam-esque atmosphere? But i'm not quite sure about that. It could be argued that Cameron wanted to show the humans as industrial and technological. We where shown fumes and other greenhouse gasses escaping from the mecha robots and the dropships. Big,loud metal guns fit in better with these theme than shiny clean laser weapons would. Laser and plasma based weaponry are enviromentally friendly

On another point, swords where recognised as good, solid infantry weapons from the bronze age right up until the early modern period. Guns, roughly as we know them today, could last a good deal longer than most sci-fi authors would like to believe. For the simple reason that they are relativly cheap, easy to use, and always deadly.

That's why the copter things sounded like Hueys too. They were powered by 2 sets of pods containing 2 co-axial counter rotating sets of blades. Huey = 2 big blades lower rpm and awesome thud-thud-thud sound. Avatar thingy = lots of small blades higher rpm would sound like the shrill whine of a turbine.

And they should have played "ride of the valkyries" during the final assault.

 

[RealLifev2.0.09]

Plot holes?
One for me is the fact that a human betrayed his fellow human to help aliens.
I personally don't understand why he would do it.

Because he liked the Na'vi more than the humans. Doesn't get more simple than that

He's a traitor in my opinion.

No, it is one that believes their is something ultimately right in the universe. The Na'vis are intelligent, so they are the humans' equals. The humans have no right to just go in and destroy the aliens' homes, therefore Jake fights for what is right.

Now granted I did not see this movie but after reading all the comments in this forum I would still like to state the following:

I can see where people get the hes a traitor argument. He apparently admits at the end of the movie that earth is dying, which implies that more then likely fucking up an expeditionary force gathering resources is probably going to cost the lives of many humans back on earth if not outright end all hope for humanity. Personally, for the same reasons I do not support PETA, I am not going to say that someone who betrays their own species so he can walk is in any way a hero, though I can understand his motives.

As to the if it was important why would the army not get involved. It is not unthinkable to believe that in the future military forces could be incorporated, as you could see today with blackwater ops acting in Iraq.

Also people will say if there is profit being made then the resource must not be that important it must be like gold or diamonds etc. etc. Which I guess could be true since you know companies do not bottle water, because as we all know people do not profit from necessities.

For me when it comes to species vs. species type movies I just remind myself of two issues:

1. If roles were reversed do I really think the other sentient life would act different? (IE Pandora is dying and falling apart and the Navi need resources from earth to sustain it or at least to buy some time to find another suitable answer, they would apparently make no effort to save themselves and just die off.)

2. Which of the species is most like my own? In which I will ultimately identify the most with and actually care for.

It sounds like I would hate this movie just like I hated district 9.

This is a gamer forum though and if there is one thing that is pretty common among gamers it is there hate for their fellow man and teen angst so I can understand why so many take a liking to the Navi.

 

[griffy00]

I think James Cameron has a thing for Vietnam tie-ins with his movies, avatar is very similar to Aliens in that sense, even down to the weaponry used (the drop ship in Aliens is based of a cobra attack helicopter). Nothing better then the pulse rifle and smart gun too, that would have ripped the Na'vi and the other creatures apart. I was hoping Sigourney Weavers avatar was gonna be ripley and then bye bye Na'vi.
In these movies its always fun to see how the future looks through the eyes of the writer or director, Cameron doesnt like all the glitzy star wars type ships and weapons so it makes sense for him to leave the more conventional weapons in and giving the marines a grittier and bad ass feel to them.
Strategic airstrikes would have made more sense though, rather then putting soldiers on the ground, just bomb the crap out of the tree and area, quick and easy. Though that would not have made for a very good storyline

 

[Nouw]

Plot holes?
One for me is the fact that a human betrayed his fellow human to help aliens.
I personally don't understand why he would do it.

Because he liked the Na'vi more than the humans. Doesn't get more simple than that

He's a traitor in my opinion.

He did an alien in another form. Of course he liked the Na'vi better ( hey Na'vi doesn't get a red line for improper spelling )

The only real plot hole is 1. And that was already explained by others

 

[Nickolai77]

That's why the copter things sounded like Hueys too. They were powered by 2 sets of pods containing 2 co-axial counter rotating sets of blades. Huey = 2 big blades lower rpm and awesome thud-thud-thud sound. Avatar thingy = lots of small blades higher rpm would sound like the shrill whine of a turbine.

0.0
Now thats what i call a sharp observation!

 

[House_Vet]

Plot holes?
One for me is the fact that a human betrayed his fellow human to help aliens.
I personally don't understand why he would do it.

Because he liked the Na'vi more than the humans. Doesn't get more simple than that

He's a traitor in my opinion.

No, it is one that believes their is something ultimately right in the universe. The Na'vis are intelligent, so they are the humans' equals. The humans have no right to just go in and destroy the aliens' homes, therefore Jake fights for what is right.

Now granted I did not see this movie but after reading all the comments in this forum I would still like to state the following:

I can see where people get the hes a traitor argument. He apparently admits at the end of the movie that earth is dying, which implies that more then likely fucking up an expeditionary force gathering resources is probably going to cost the lives of many humans back on earth if not outright end all hope for humanity. Personally, for the same reasons I do not support PETA, I am not going to say that someone who betrays their own species so he can walk is in any way a hero, though I can understand his motives.

As to the if it was important why would the army not get involved. It is not unthinkable to believe that in the future military forces could be incorporated, as you could see today with blackwater ops acting in Iraq.

Also people will say if there is profit being made then the resource must not be that important it must be like gold or diamonds etc. etc. Which I guess could be true since you know companies do not bottle water, because as we all know people do not profit from necessities.

For me when it comes to species vs. species type movies I just remind myself of two issues:

1. If roles were reversed do I really think the other sentient life would act different? (IE Pandora is dying and falling apart and the Navi need resources from earth to sustain it or at least to buy some time to find another suitable answer, they would apparently make no effort to save themselves and just die off.)

2. Which of the species is most like my own? In which I will ultimately identify the most with and actually care for.

It sounds like I would hate this movie just like I hated district 9.

This is a gamer forum though and if there is one thing that is pretty common among gamers it is there hate for their fellow man and teen angst so I can understand why so many take a liking to the Navi.

I see your point of view, and it's balanced - if you haven't seen the film. The "unobtainium" debate centres around its necessity to Earth. Given that we do not have such a material natively, and that it is so expensive, I'd probably argue that it isn't entirely necessary to continued human survival.

Also, IT'S AN ALLEGORY! I find the Na'vi considerably more humane than the humans on Pandora, but it's not about Human vs Non-human - it's about retaining humanity by closeness with nature and how we treat our fellow man, even those we regard as savages. It's an ecological myth tied up with an anit-colonial message, Vietnam, and the war on terror. Jake is treated like a person instead of "meat" or "meals on wheels" (direct quotes); Thus, Jake's decision to become a Na'vi is from the reviews and comments I've read, sympathised with by the overwhelming majority of those who see the film.

 

[RealLifev2.0.09]

Plot holes?
One for me is the fact that a human betrayed his fellow human to help aliens.
I personally don't understand why he would do it.

Because he liked the Na'vi more than the humans. Doesn't get more simple than that

He's a traitor in my opinion.

No, it is one that believes their is something ultimately right in the universe. The Na'vis are intelligent, so they are the humans' equals. The humans have no right to just go in and destroy the aliens' homes, therefore Jake fights for what is right.

Now granted I did not see this movie but after reading all the comments in this forum I would still like to state the following:

I can see where people get the hes a traitor argument. He apparently admits at the end of the movie that earth is dying, which implies that more then likely fucking up an expeditionary force gathering resources is probably going to cost the lives of many humans back on earth if not outright end all hope for humanity. Personally, for the same reasons I do not support PETA, I am not going to say that someone who betrays their own species so he can walk is in any way a hero, though I can understand his motives.

As to the if it was important why would the army not get involved. It is not unthinkable to believe that in the future military forces could be incorporated, as you could see today with blackwater ops acting in Iraq.

Also people will say if there is profit being made then the resource must not be that important it must be like gold or diamonds etc. etc. Which I guess could be true since you know companies do not bottle water, because as we all know people do not profit from necessities.

For me when it comes to species vs. species type movies I just remind myself of two issues:

1. If roles were reversed do I really think the other sentient life would act different? (IE Pandora is dying and falling apart and the Navi need resources from earth to sustain it or at least to buy some time to find another suitable answer, they would apparently make no effort to save themselves and just die off.)

2. Which of the species is most like my own? In which I will ultimately identify the most with and actually care for.

It sounds like I would hate this movie just like I hated district 9.

This is a gamer forum though and if there is one thing that is pretty common among gamers it is there hate for their fellow man and teen angst so I can understand why so many take a liking to the Navi.

I see your point of view, and it's balanced - if you haven't seen the film. The "unobtainium" debate centres around its necessity to Earth. Given that we do not have such a material natively, and that it is so expensive, I'd probably argue that it isn't entirely necessary to continued human survival.

Also, IT'S AN ALLEGORY! I find the Na'vi considerably more humane than the humans on Pandora, but it's not about Human vs Non-human - it's about retaining humanity by closeness with nature and how we treat our fellow man, even those we regard as savages. It's an ecological myth tied up with an anit-colonial message, Vietnam, and the war on terror. Jake is treated like a person instead of "meat" or "meals on wheels" (direct quotes); Thus, Jake's decision to become a Na'vi is from the reviews and comments I've read, sympathised with by the overwhelming majority of those who see the film.

Yeah I understand the Allegory thing its just I think movies often cave in on themselves trying to draw parallels.

For example district 9 was an allegory to the Apartheid but I had huge issues with this:

Black Africans were not technologically superior to the White Europeans that first began to migrate to Africa and assume control. (Saying the aliens were biologically more powerful (ripping humans apart in some scenes, and also technologically superior but were just uninterested in self preservation yet still built weapons and committed criminal acts or revolted was a psychological cluster fuck of logic.)

That would be like saying the Zulu had AK-47s during the Victorian era but just decided they would not use them, because they were docile. Where in reality they fought very hard and bravely but just could not win due to the technological gap.

I thought If I was African the movie seemed quite insulting as if to say they failed to gain the upper hand because they did not care enough.

More pertaining to Avatar I believe If I understand it correctly Avatar is an Allegory to the colonization of the America's.

1. European's did not bring brutality or war to the America's, tribes were warring with one another far before they got involved. (The Aztec's were even enslaving entire civilizations to use as work horses or even to sacrifice in blood rituals.)

2. Many Native Americans assimilated fairly quickly after their civilizations were falling apart due to plague/war (granted the plague was brought by Europeans but then it was not understood as to how such things were spread).

3. Many European cultures were once centered around nature. (For instance Druids)

I just thought the movie sounds like it over demonizes or underplays certain parts of a culture to get a point across under false pretenses.

You can portray anything in any way you like (See Propaganda).

Edit: Sorry I meant at the end there to add that I get that its a Go Green movie, I just mean from the sounds of this movie it would of been much more interesting and even clever if it was less of a captain planet knock off (With overly good good guys and overly bad bad guys).

This movie sounds like a John Wayne Film set in reverse.

 

[sauerkraus]

Does anyone else laugh every time they read 'unobtanium' ?

 

[House_Vet]

Nope, cos it's a real scientific term.

 

[Manhattan2112]

I had a huge problem with the fact that in the beginning of the movie, the one guy says that "the Na'vi are hard to kill because of their naturally reinforced bones," however, Norm died in one shot. What was that?!

 

[House_Vet]

Yeah I understand the Allegory thing its just I think movies often cave in on themselves trying to draw parallels.

For example district 9 was an allegory to the Apartheid but I had huge issues with this:

Black Africans were not technologically superior to the White Europeans that first began to migrate to Africa and assume control. (Saying the aliens were biologically more powerful (ripping humans apart in some scenes, and also technologically superior but were just uninterested in self preservation yet still built weapons and committed criminal acts or revolted was a psychological cluster fuck of logic.)

That would be like saying the Zulu had AK-47s during the Victorian era but just decided they would not use them, because they were docile. Where in reality they fought very hard and bravely but just could not win due to the technological gap.

I thought If I was African the movie seemed quite insulting as if to say they failed to gain the upper hand because they did not care enough.

More pertaining to Avatar I believe If I understand it correctly Avatar is an Allegory to the colonization of the America's.

1. European's did not bring brutality or war to the America's, tribes were warring with one another far before they got involved. (The Aztec's were even enslaving entire civilizations to use as work horses or even to sacrifice in blood rituals.)

2. Many Native Americans assimilated fairly quickly after their civilizations were falling apart due to plague/war (granted the plague was brought by Europeans but then it was not understood as to how such things were spread).

3. Many European cultures were once centered around nature. (For instance Druids)

I just thought the movie sounds like it over demonizes or underplays certain parts of a culture to get a point across under false pretenses.

You can portray anything in any way you like (See Propaganda).

Edit: Sorry I meant at the end there to add that I get that its a Go Green movie, I just mean from the sounds of this movie it would of been much more interesting and even clever if it was less of a captain planet knock off (With overly good good guys and overly bad bad guys).

This movie sounds like a John Wayne Film set in reverse.

I agree with you about District 9 - I thought it was more than a bit odd on the prawns being almost 'cattle-like'.

Whilst it's true that the druids were pagan, the message in this film is closer to the idea of Gaia as a deity, and the understanding of that fact (fact within the film anyhow). Also, the idea of warring tribes is mirrored, if not spoken of in Avatar, as it takes something pretty special to bring them together. Also, quick hegemony is not a great argument IMHO - what is lost stays lost - common literary theme concerning language and culture.

The film is indeed propaganda of a sort, but as far as I'm concerned, sugaring the pill and using broad strokes of the brush (type rather than individual characters etc) is acceptable for what I'd consider a message that, if taken, will do the world good.

So I guess I'm recommending the film to you - you may not like its pretensions, but as far as a spectacle goes, it's pretty damn epic - well worth a trip to the cinema.

@Manhattan2112
Oh, and I'm not sure Norm's Avatar died - it was his shoulder that got hit, and (debatably) you see his Avatar at the end.

 

[RealLifev2.0.09]

Yeah I understand the Allegory thing its just I think movies often cave in on themselves trying to draw parallels.

For example district 9 was an allegory to the Apartheid but I had huge issues with this:

Black Africans were not technologically superior to the White Europeans that first began to migrate to Africa and assume control. (Saying the aliens were biologically more powerful (ripping humans apart in some scenes, and also technologically superior but were just uninterested in self preservation yet still built weapons and committed criminal acts or revolted was a psychological cluster fuck of logic.)

That would be like saying the Zulu had AK-47s during the Victorian era but just decided they would not use them, because they were docile. Where in reality they fought very hard and bravely but just could not win due to the technological gap.

I thought If I was African the movie seemed quite insulting as if to say they failed to gain the upper hand because they did not care enough.

More pertaining to Avatar I believe If I understand it correctly Avatar is an Allegory to the colonization of the America's.

1. European's did not bring brutality or war to the America's, tribes were warring with one another far before they got involved. (The Aztec's were even enslaving entire civilizations to use as work horses or even to sacrifice in blood rituals.)

2. Many Native Americans assimilated fairly quickly after their civilizations were falling apart due to plague/war (granted the plague was brought by Europeans but then it was not understood as to how such things were spread).

3. Many European cultures were once centered around nature. (For instance Druids)

I just thought the movie sounds like it over demonizes or underplays certain parts of a culture to get a point across under false pretenses.

You can portray anything in any way you like (See Propaganda).

Edit: Sorry I meant at the end there to add that I get that its a Go Green movie, I just mean from the sounds of this movie it would of been much more interesting and even clever if it was less of a captain planet knock off (With overly good good guys and overly bad bad guys).

This movie sounds like a John Wayne Film set in reverse.

I agree with you about District 9 - I thought it was more than a bit odd on the prawns being almost 'cattle-like'.

Whilst it's true that the druids were pagan, the message in this film is closer to the idea of Gaia as a deity, and the understanding of that fact (fact within the film anyhow). Also, the idea of warring tribes is mirrored, if not spoken of in Avatar, as it takes something pretty special to bring them together. Also, quick hegemony is not a great argument IMHO - what is lost stays lost - common literary theme concerning language and culture.

The film is indeed propaganda of a sort, but as far as I'm concerned, sugaring the pill and using broad strokes of the brush (type rather than individual characters etc) is acceptable for what I'd consider a message that, if taken, will do the world good.

So I guess I'm recommending the film to you - you may not like its pretensions, but as far as a spectacle goes, it's pretty damn epic - well worth a trip to the cinema.

@Manhattan2112
Oh, and I'm not sure Norm's Avatar died - it was his shoulder that got hit, and (debatably) you see his Avatar at the end.

I get what your saying but I still find it ironic for someone to say a movie is pushing for the following of natural orders yet rejects hegemony as being natural.

To me it is just the predatory tendency of civilizations to devour and assimilate other cultures. You can say that it is terrible that the wolf would eat a rabbit, but to say that it is not the will of Gaia for a wolf to eat a rabbit is just silly. Competition and predation is natural and repeated in all Eco systems.

Edit: This in tying with the film I only mean to say that competition between species is relevant to a movie that is trying to say lets get more in touch with nature. It is more natural for wolves to help other wolves then for wolves to help other rabbits, so I think they kind of lose their natural argument when they have humans unnaturally rebirth themselves into the others society. In fact this movie sounds more like it is less about the natural universe, as much as it is about how perceptions can change when you change bodies.

 

[House_Vet]

I get what your saying but I still find it ironic for someone to say a movie is pushing for the following of natural orders yet rejects hegemony as being natural.

To me it is just the predatory tendency of civilizations to devour and assimilate other cultures. You can say that it is terrible that the wolf would eat a rabbit, but to say that it is not the will of Gaia for a wolf to eat a rabbit is just silly. Competition and predation is natural and repeated in all Eco systems.

Edit: This in tying with the film I only mean to say that competition between species is relevant to a movie that is trying to say lets get more in touch with nature. It is more natural for wolves to help other wolves then for wolves to help other rabbits, so I think they kind of lose their natural argument when they have humans unnaturally rebirth themselves into the others society. In fact this movie sounds more like it is less about the natural universe, as much as it is about how perceptions can change when you change bodies.

All of what you're saying is true, apart from the fact that human expansion is decidedly unnatural: We've become so successful as to redress nature's balance in many ways. We do not prey on other humans, and in the same way, the humans in Avatar do not prey on the Na'vi themselves - they simply lack any form of empathy, or humanity towards them, calling them "blue monkeys". Jake, quite accidentally, finds himself taken by surprise by the Na'vi's humanity. When you gain empathy for the people you're subjugating, that brings personal and social conflict. Avatar is about what happens when you step into another people's shoes.

 

[Tarkand]

I think the sequel will be a very dark movie. Think about it, the corporation will probably attempt to re-invade Pandora and the Na'vi really are in no shape to challenge that invasion force. Not only that, but most marines will deem the Na'vi beasts. I mean, the people who rebelled against the corporation only did so because they actually spent time with the tribe and learned about their ways, something which that invasion force never did.

What do you base this on thought?

Jake starts the movie by saying you hear of pandora when you're a kid and he never thought he'd go there.

Somewhere in the movie, we get a very good shot of a book called 'The Na'vi' written by Susan's character which is at least 500 pages thick. It's obvious humanity has been on this planet for a while and both it's eco system and people have been studied for years if not decades.

If anything, the corporation getting its butt kicked back to earth may cause a sensbilation to the native's plight by humanity.

 

[Drax715]

People used to fight wars over spices (you know, the stuff you season food with), not to mention tea, neither of which are inherently necessary for people to survive

 

[Drax715]

That's bullshit. Why would there be such a high demand for this resource if it wasn't necessary?

People used to fight wars over spices (you know, the stuff you season food with), not to mention tea, neither of which are inherently necessary for people to survive