Politics in the UK

[The_root_of_all_evil]

repealing the Human Rights Act

Shortened down to all you need to know about the Tories.

 

[PiCroft]

Oh yeah I skimmed over the thread, but I predict the following will appear, in no particular order, either already in the thread or will at some point:

A link to a Daily Mail article
Comment regarding immigrants/asylum seekers
How someone is voting for the BNP "Because the other parties are shit"
PC Gone Mad
Liberals
Nu Liar Bore/Gordon Clown/Bliar (Or some other permutations of New Labour and its ministers in Wanker Speak)

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

To be honest, the two conflicts aren't really very comparable.

Both started by a PM wanting re-election from dubious intelligence from a foreign power far away from British soil? Numerous soldiers killed in "accidents".

Iraq and Afghanistan combined is much higher than the Falklands.

Even with the idea of 2 wars having more deaths than one war...
Fatalities: Falklands (255) Iraq(179) Afghanistan(232)

Not "much" though, is it?

With regards to strikes, wasn't... most of that due to privitisation?

And unless you're going to tell me that the UK Transport system is wonderful these days..

And aren't we grateful that we no longer have to deal with too many Trade Unions these days?

Like, say, the Post Office Workers Strike?
And what a wonderful coal industry Britain now has. And a wonderful steel industry. And a wonderful car industry.

Oh

But, what a lot of money the MPs have. Do you think there's a correlation here?

 

[Agema]

Scepticism was adequately rejected by Wittgenstein and shown to be nothing more than a delve into the pointless and absurd.

Good for Wittgenstein, but he wasn't the final word on skepticism - it's still alive and well despite his quibbles. If you're going to get that picky, I'd also direct you to check out scientific skepticism (which is more the skepticism I meant), and I'll be interested to hear whether you think that is "pointless and absurd".

As for benefits, the amount of people lazing around amounts to ~£800 million. That's a whole lot of people. I have been around people who have been given a good education and throw it away just to do claim benefits. The reason for that is social attitude. Why work when you can get away with doing nothing? The need to work to survive has been removed from society, and will be abused by many people.
Though I do wholly agree that the government does need to take more action and provide better childcare (Licensing? Specialist infant education supported by the latest research), education standards (Do away with comprehensives), and provide access to far more many careers that do not require degrees and higher qualifications etc. The only problem now is breaking people out of the cycle of unemployment and contentment with it. The only way I can see this being done is to completely re-haul or remove the benefit system, something I cannot imagine Labour ever touching, due to the majority of their constituents.
Conservatives on the other hand may rework the system, if only for fiscal reasons, but rework it nevertheless.

No. You fundamentally don't understand what benefits fraud means.

Benefits fraud is someone claiming benefits they are not entitled to, whether because they are unemployed and claiming too much, or employed and claiming what they have no right to at all.

A lazy person, "professionally unemployed" if you like, may be drawing benefits legally, as they are entitled to because they are unemployed. Thus the £800 million fraud figure does not meaningfully relate to the number of permanent work-shy.

 

[Doug]

Actually, just thought of a picture that sums up my opinion on David Cameron: He's all glitz and glamour, but no substance. Just like a:

Spoiler

Jellyfish! Ah how I love satire...

Wait, no one said that about Tony 'Similes' Blair? No the fuck not?

Actually they did...In the interest of impartiality - Here is Steve Bell on Tony Blair.

But Tony Blair isn't going for PM is he? That's why I commented on David Camerons lack of substance...and not Blairs. If you really like, I can get another one of Brown making a fool of himself.

Ok, I'm satisfied now. And Blair was PM, is all I meant - did anyone said that before he was elected, I meant - apparently they did, so now I'm satisfied.

Also, can you post one of Brown making a fool of himself? I have a pair of YouTube videos....

WARNING: Some bad written language:

The Conservatives are going to pull this country back from the shit Labour has left us in. Billions in debt, a government that no one can trust and one of the most useless prime ministers we have ever had. Someone above me said the Conservatives are corrupt, but both main parties are corrupt as hell. the expenses scandal only confirmed this.
TYhis Labour government has a retarded immigration policy. They let in all those people who will just be a drain on the economy whilst those who have done a service or will be beneficial (e.g the iraqi interpreters) are not allowed in.
Remember the whole thing with the Ghurkas? The labour party, who you are so proud of, refused to give them the help they needed. These were people who were willing to give their lives for OUR country, and the labour government wanted to refuse them citizenship.
Labour has left us with an economy in ruins and has shaken the entire country's faith in british politics.
I'm not saying the Conservatives can do much better, but they certainly cant do any worse. I know i'm voting Conservative.
And you personally, you seem to me to be someone whohas taken the stereotypical view of the Conservatives, without actually looking at their policies and without listening to what they have to say, and used that to sing labours praises.

Thank you very f**king much! About time somebody set all these liberal idiots straight, hell some of these posts made me sympathize with Glenn Beck. All the Labour has done since 1997 is bankrupt the market, integrate our society with mongrels and turned Britain into a politically correct state, nowadays disliking muslims makes you a racist and supporting the free market makes you a selfish narcissist.

Now Gordon Brown is on his knees necking on Obama's communist ballocks; another case of a British PM following the mistakes of American polarised politics. So what makes the Tories better than the Labour? nothing really besides their platform, they both lie and cheat but I guess the end justifies the means. Like America, we are becoming a two-party system and the only competition is the Liberal Democrats and the BNP, apparently another thing we're getting from America is the black and white thinking.

That's politics in Britain: politically correct liberals have their say, conservatives have their say, and the British people have to shut up, listen and never complain. Voting doesn't count for anything and democracy is incredibly flawed, maybe we should try the monarchy again, but only if the king is Burger King... speaking of which, I'm hungry.

I can't tell if your joking or not in some bits - specifically the 'mongrel' bit. You do realise we are an inheritantly mongrel nation - our gene pool is a mix of Roman, Viking, Saxon (German), Norman, Scots, Irish, other Europeans, some Africans... and what was even before the war. Purity my arse.

As for Obama == communist, well, if thats what you think, I don't think anything anyone will say will change your mind.

 

[Doug]

Double post - sorry

 

[Owain Thomas Davies Ellis]

As a left-winger, I think that, while new labour is shit, it has got my vote simply because it is, well, left wing.
...
And never had Margret bloody Thatcher

 

[cuddly_tomato]

As for benefits, the amount of people lazing around amounts to ~£800 million. That's a whole lot of people. I have been around people who have been given a good education and throw it away just to do claim benefits. The reason for that is social attitude. Why work when you can get away with doing nothing? The need to work to survive has been removed from society, and will be abused by many people.

What do you suggest? If someone hasn't got a job they be left to die on the streets? They won't do that, they will steal to survive. This will lead to more crime, and a criminal costs the state far more than an unemployed person.

Your comments are not actually founded in reality, but founded on the commentary pages of the likes of the Daily Mail and Daily Express. I really doubt you have witnessed poverty first hand, more likely you have heard about "these people" living in places such as Leasowe and have come to the conclusion that they are all living a wonderful life there on free handouts.

Try actually going there, you might learn something.

I suggest if they do not want to work, then they should be carted off to a work camp.

Is work camp less expensive than simply paying people enough to get by? Is your motivation for these comments simply a crusade against benefits claimants, as opposed to actually addressing the problems who face such people.

If they do want to work, and cannot find employment, then the government should give them money & a hand to find a job. Two vastly different scenarios.
My comments are founded in realism, not liberal idealism where everyone is truly a nice person etc. And yes I have witnessed poverty first hand. You are quite clearly mistaken about what I am saying.
I am not having ago at the poor, I am saying that the benefit system is open to abuse and needs to be fixed, as it encourages unemployment, especially considering the almost negligible difference between benefits and minimum wage.

Neglegible difference between benefits and minimum wage? £5 per hour vs £64 per week? My maths are not great, but £64 per week is less than £10 per day. With the tax credit for people on minimum wage someone, working a 35 hour week is guaranteed £251 per week. Where did you get the impression that benefits payments were close to any kind of wage? The Express? Or the Daily Mail?

That, coupled with your other comments, proves you have zero first hand experience of poverty. Read the other posts in this thread without the venom of Simon Heffer in your ears and try to understand that people without money really don't have the amount of options in life as you do.

The assertion earlier that poor people were somehow to blame for the situation they are in, and are somehow to blame for holding the country back, really did reveal a serious lack of understanding of the problems that people living in poverty face. I am telling you right now that your "solutions" would do nothing more than create even more poverty, and ensure that those who are living in poverty would find it even more difficult to escape from poverty. In some places there are simply not enough jobs to go around, and no, there are not loads and loads and loads of shelf filling jobs available to anyone who wants them. What do you do in those areas? The benefits system is terrible I agree. But it needs more compassion and funding, not to be treating people already facing hard times as if they are to blame for their problems, or making their situation even more difficult.

 

[GrinningManiac]

Meh, as long as we get a United States of Europe soon, I really don't care. I support Labour, more Brown than Blair (who, to be honest, landed Brown in the shizz) and I kinda pity the guy. Plus, he's a safe pair of hands

(Politics student at A-Level right here)

 

[TheSeventhLoneWolf]

Those guys up top give us someone to blame when things go pear shaped. So they have some kind of purpose.

 

[Kiefer13]

Sadly I will still be a couple of months off voting age by the time of the election, but if I could, I'd be voting Lib Dem.

 

[Agema]

Disability benefits = e.g. I have a bad back and cannot work, therefore give me a salary.
Disability, which is part of the benefit system, costs millions a year. Unfortunately I could not find the report on one area (Merseyside) arresting about 200 people who were claiming in excess of £1 million.
And the system needs to be re-hauled to prevent the work shy attitude from existing. As I have previously stated, I doubt Labour will tackle the problem.

According to official government statistics from earlier this year:

Disability benefit in the UK between Apr 08 - Mar 09 was £6.6billion paid, with estimated fraud of £70 million, or just over 1% of all payments.

The main forms of fraud in terms of absolute pounds are income support and housing benefit, about £250 million apiece. The areas where there is most fraud as a percentage of total money paid out are income support (again) at 2.9%; jobseeker's allowance at 2.8%; and carer's allowance at 3.9%.

Just because a few people got into the news scamming disability with a bad back, it does not mean it is actually a major problem in total.

 

[Nickolai77]

The disposable income freed up by benefits still produces a net loss.

Can you prove that?

As for Birkenhead, millions have gone into areas around the shopping area (Europa Pools, Conway Park etc) and it's still the same crap hole. Why? Social attitude of the area. In an area where it's fine to be underage, pregnant & illiterate, why go to school? Kids have kids who are brought up with same attitude, cycle continues. Obviously it's not the whole area, but when people aren't moving into the area, why does it stay shit for so many decades?
Serious investment (e.g. billions) does help, but again, the problem with Liverpool is too much unemployment for too long. When the Docks went, the council did nothing to create new jobs. When the factories went, same story. And now you have the cycle of unemployment and benefits. By cutting off benefits, it breaks this cycle. Harsh method, but one which will do something to stop the problem rather than continue it.

Firstly, i don't think that much investment has gone into Birkenhead, yes the government built a swimming pool and several office blocks, but i don't call that serious investment.

I also think that cutting benifits will just make things worse. Those living off the state will not better themselves if their benifits where cut, it will not make them majically get up off their ass and find a job. Many of them already have a job (of sorts). However they tend to be crap jobs, and they can not better themselves due to lack of opportunity or education. Taking away benifits would make these opportunities even more rarer, and thus lock people into poverty. Further more, with people put in even more poverty and struggiling to make ends meet, it will make them more likely to resort to crime. As if our prisons arn't over-crowded already.




I still however think that benifits may need to cut, just to balance the books. Even if we are in relativly less debt than America, Japan and Italy, that does not make debt a good thing. In the long run, with more governement money, that means the government can invest in the economy more and this will stimulate growth once the economy is improving again.

For years Birkenhead was a real boom town, a huge, sprawling trading port. Not only that but this was one of the main centres for ship building in the whole of Europe. After those old businesses were quietly put to sleep no efforts were made to find alternatives for the people living here, thus masses of people ended up on benefits. This led to a decline in the local economy, people were no longer buying the kind of commodities and goods they were before, so local businesses moved out or folded. In the end, the aggregate amount of wealth in the town dropped to such a low level that any attempt to recover the town with significant goverment funding became untennable, because even if someone started a new big business, there would not be enough people here with enough money to make it worthwhile. Right now, the whole town depends on benefits. Even those not receiving it depend on those who are receiving it, as they need people to buy whatever it is they are selling.

I say that rather than cut welfare, the government find more inventive methods of delivering it so that it stimulates the local economy. In other words, create actual jobs here, and offer incentives for those who wish to try and improve the lot of situations like this. Rather than bailing out car manufacturers, why not offer tax breaks to companies who set up major industrial facilities in towns like this? Instead of cutting taxes for people earning £700000, why not use that money to help people start their own small business in poorer areas, help to shore them up during times where nobody can spend because they have no money?

The answer is simple. Big business wields more power than small businesses. They will spend billions on Northern Rock, but helping Grange Road Electrical keep it's head above water, and keep 5 people off benefits and still spending, has no real votes in it.

Call me cliche, but i'm going to blame Thatcher for the poverty around Mersyside (and the North in general). When she sold off the nationalised industries she should have sold them for what they are worth, and then used the extra government money to invest in the newly privatsied British industries, modernising them and training the workers and ex-miners to use more advanced equipment in the manufactring industry. This would have kept British industy afloat, and able to compete with European competators. If further investment had gone into improving the rail network that would have been great, as it would have opend up the European market to British industry in the north. This would have prevented the rise of Britains "under-class", who lack any meaningful jobs and thus do little but make a nuisance out of themselves.

Once the economy is on track, perhaps investing in industry might be well worth while, give people meanigful jobs and it keeps people off the street, and its good for the economy.

Governments are crappy, especially when they basically do what tabloids tell them.

Yup, couldn't agree more, thats why i won't be voting conservative, all they do is follow the Daily Mail. In fact, when politicans do follow the opinions in tabloids it does test your faith in democracy...

We seem to have quite a few Wirral folks around here. You, I, IckleMissMayhem, etc (I can't take Matzys claim to be from Leasowe seriously). We should organise an escapist meet up.

Over Christmas? i'm up in Lancaster at the moment. We could meet up in Liverpool or something like that.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Corroded, we're already at loggerheads on one point. I don't want this to get out of hand.

Gumf about the war.

Doesn't matter. I was showing that Labour and the Tories do similar things.

To be honest, the public transport these days has been better than it's ever been. I'm glad British Rail are gone, the trains were never, ever on time. I haven't seen a late train that i've needed to get... and i'm in London at least every other weekend, by Train... and i'm yet to have to wait for a delayed train.

Go North. Then see.

The CWU is really one of the last proper behemoths left... primarily because THEY STILL HAVE A MONOPOLY. Do you honestly not see the problem?

Yeah, they've had their services cut off, their buildings crushed, their level of service pissed on and there are no decent post offices anymore. That's why they're a little miffed. Oh, and the fact that they're not in some greedy businessman's pocket; like all the previous industries mentioned, which is why England has to rely on an immigrant workforce.

It's not like coal is really all that viable as a fuel source anyway, anymore. Carbon Emissions?

So we're ok using Nuclear Power because that's perfectly good for the environment?

British Cars, apart from the top of the line have always been basically shit. British Leyland were bloody useless bastards.

Again, I throw back Rolls Royce. Decimated by the Government's lack of support and a keyname in both Aerospace and Motoring.

Tories did alot of modernisation, that people take for granted and still people moan over the death of Coal and Steel. We are a tertiary level economy now, we mostly deal in services, that just accelerated it.

The modernisation the Tories did was centralisation; which brought the money to the rich. The reasons we're all in service industries now is that we've sold off our primary and secondary economics.

Go to Newcastle(Steel) or Glasgow(Steel/Ships) or Liverpool(Steel/Ships or Nottingham or Leicester(Hosiery) or Belfast(Steel/Ships) and tell them what a great jobs the Tories were doing while they were posting pamplets through their door reminding them of the "N***** in the workforce" and see if you can get out alive.

 

[orangebandguy]

As a left-winger, I think that, while new labour is shit, it has got my vote simply because it is, well, left wing.
...
And never had Margret bloody Thatcher

Lib Dems are left wing, and they'd not cock up as much as labour.

 

[Nickolai77]

Meh, as long as we get a United States of Europe soon, I really don't care. I support Labour, more Brown than Blair (who, to be honest, landed Brown in the shizz) and I kinda pity the guy. Plus, he's a safe pair of hands

(Politics student at A-Level right here)

Your either being highly sarcastic or you must be the only European federalist in the United Kingdom. 0.0

If you are a European federalist.. fair enough. I call myself pro-European,but i don't think making Europe a federal state is quite feasable due to language barriers and public opposition.