Poll: Abortion- What's your position and why?

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lostclause

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ZeroMachine said:
lostclause said:
ZeroMachine said:
Although I'm not about to say you're wrong/evil/a murderer etc, I will state that technically a fetus is a human. It has human DNA, therefore it is human.
This is going to open up a can of worms but if people with downs syndrome have extra genetic material, does that make them non-human? (no, that is not my opinion, I'm just raising a point.)

But my position is pro-choice, with reservations. If you don't want the child prevention is the way to go and if that doesn't work we have orphanages, a poor life is better than none (assuming they don't get adopted), and yes you should give generously to that orphanage.
Humans with down syndrome still have human DNA (I know you don't believe what you said, but still, I had to say it).
Could you please define human dna? All life on earth shares the same 4 bases (unless it's rna based, in which case one of them is different) so our dna is not unique. Even our number of chromsomes, 46, is shared with a type of deer and a type of rat.
I know I didn't believe what I said but I just think that dna is not the neat way of defining humanity that some claim it is.
 

ZeroMachine

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NoMoreSanity said:
ZeroMachine said:
Oh boy... and here's where and oft looked down upon trait of mine comes out. Realistic optimism.

No life is pointless. Every life affects another life in one way or another, be it negative or positive. It's simply a part of nature. Everyone contributes to the whole, whether it's for better or worse, or a larger or smaller effect. (And I'm not saying the whole "every life is sacred" bull. Every life is important to an extent. Sacred is a term used to envoke an overinflated sense of importance beyond what any person's life is, no matter how much they contribute to society.)

And (not that I'm calling you out) you didn't comment on my main point... a fetus is alive. I'm curious about your take on my comment.
God this is why I didn't want to post here...

And my realism comes in, because there is no point to life. The only point there is is one we make up for ourselves to make ourselves think we're not going to die with an empty life. We're each tiny little specks, in a tiny speck of a planet, in a tiny speck of the galaxy, in a tiny speck of the universe. None of us matter in the end except the .000001 who somehow manage to be worth a damn.

And I already gave my thoughts on that above.
I just had a discussion involving the whole "pointless in the grand scheme of the universe" thing. I won't derail this thread with my long, drawn out explanation but... life is anything but pointless. If it was pointless, it wouldn't exist. Everything that exists has a point. Why would it exist if there was no purpose? That makes no sense.
 

ZeroMachine

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lostclause said:
ZeroMachine said:
lostclause said:
ZeroMachine said:
Although I'm not about to say you're wrong/evil/a murderer etc, I will state that technically a fetus is a human. It has human DNA, therefore it is human.
This is going to open up a can of worms but if people with downs syndrome have extra genetic material, does that make them non-human? (no, that is not my opinion, I'm just raising a point.)

But my position is pro-choice, with reservations. If you don't want the child prevention is the way to go and if that doesn't work we have orphanages, a poor life is better than none (assuming they don't get adopted), and yes you should give generously to that orphanage.
Humans with down syndrome still have human DNA (I know you don't believe what you said, but still, I had to say it).
Could you please define human dna? All life on earth shares the same 4 bases (unless it's rna based, in which case one of them is different) so our dna is not unique. Even our number of chromsomes, 46, is shared with a type of deer and a type of rat.
I know I didn't believe what I said but I just think that dna is not the neat way of defining humanity that some claim it is.
No genetecist will mistake human DNA for deer DNA. Why do you think we can identify certain people because of their DNA?
 

cowbell40

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NoMoreSanity said:
cowbell40 said:
NoMoreSanity said:
I meant that in the sense that it's not a Human.
not living in a human sense.
Now hang on, you're definitely wrong there. Correct me if I'm just not getting what you're saying.

We distinguish species from one another by their DNA, correct? If you took a sample from a fetus it wouldn't be, say, cow DNA. It wouldn't even be monkey DNA. I doubt you could find any honest scientist who would tell you that the DNA found in the fetus was anything but human DNA. The same goes with any other embryo of any other species (obviously). The fetus is human, albeit a not fully-developed one.

If what you mean is that because the fetus can't do things that most humans can do, for instance basic math, reading, eating etc, that it somehow makes it not a human, you are definitely wrong. Some members of the elderly population can't feed or bathe themselves. Does it make someone not a person just because they can't do everything a "normal" person can?

I apologize if I read too much into your comment.
You are!

It's not sentient! It can't think for itself, it is not a human. It cannot survive by itself, it's a parasite that grows into one of us, and it looks disgusting to boot.
Alright. Then this begs the question, as for those members of society who can't think properly for themselves; the insane, the retarded, some of the elderly. Are you saying that they too are disposable? Fine, let's round up all the above-mentioned "undesirables" and slaughter them like cows. It's okay, because they can't think properly and therefore are not human. You don't see any problem with this? And I believe you need to look up what a parasite is.

And of course fetuses can't survive on their own. What, do you want a fully functional adult do appear at the instant of conception? Considering how complex a process embryonic development is, I'm frankly amazed it all gets done in 9 months.

and it looks disgusting to boot.
Come now, you're just being silly. Is this really a reason to have something as grave as an abortion done?
 

Borrowed Time

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Firstly, I believe in the sanctity of innocent life (and not for religious reasons), and guess what, the law agrees with me. That's why it's illegal to commit murder.

I believe a fetus baby is a human being. Therefore I believe abortion is murder.

Murder:

noun 1. Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

Before anyone sits there and starts pointing fingers at me, yes, there are extremists who bomb abortion clinics. I in no way agree with these individuals or believe that their actions are justified. They need to be locked up for a very long time and have the key thrown away. They are no better then the lowest of low.

Now that I have that out of the way. Do I believe it should be illegal? Yes, and I'll give you 3 words as to why. Adoption, adoption and adoption.

A couple screwed up (pun intended)? Why don't you take responsibility for your actions? Low-lifes. If you're not mature enough to have a kid you aren't mature enough for sex. There's always consequences to our actions; about time people learn to live with them instead of taking the easy way out.

You can't raise the kid because of monetary or other reasons? Give the fetus baby up for adoption where there's a loving family to take care of him/her.

Rape/incest. These are the most unfortunate cases ever. I understand individuals rage over the topic, and my heart really goes out to those who have been victims of this (I've known a few). What saddens me even more though, is that an innocent fetus child has to lose their life making this even more of a tragedy. I understand the pain, the humiliation and the emotion involved in these situations, but for the sake of holding on to any shred of good that may come out of it, please take the child to term and give it up for adoption. Let there be a chance of something decent to come out of it.

The woman will die unless the child is aborted? Have you seen the cases where a doctor told a pregnant woman mother that she will die if she goes through with the pregnancy, and the doctor was wrong? There's a decent number of cases actually. Now, I can understand extreme situations, but doctors are sometimes wrong. Actually, I've seen a disturbing number of cases where doctors were wrong. They are human and make mistakes just like the rest of society. This is a bit of a grey area unfortunately as each case differs immensely. I don't have all the answers and truly don't know what I would say in every situation since there's no way I can be presented with them all, but why are we so quick to throw away life?

I find it disturbing that I'm regularly called uncompassionate by individuals for my stances on people owning up to their mistakes and taking responsibility for their actions. In the same breath however, a good number of the same individuals who accuse me of this lack any compassion at all for the innocent who have done absolutely nothing wrong except for exist. We wipe them clean like a stain on a shirt. It truly makes my stomach churn at the thought.

By the way, those who believe the whole "over-population" thing, why not be first to help with the problem and line up for assisted-suicide? You'd be doing a lot more good for the over-population issue then sitting there complaining about it. Not only that, but you'd be the one making the choice, fancy that, having a choice about your own life/death. Hrmmm. Sounds like a better deal then you're giving these fetuses children.

I'm ready for the flaming, bring it on. =)
 

lovetropicana

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Why do so few people even consider adoption? if the issue is raise-child-in-bad-home vs abortion, adoption should be the best option. In many other countries yes, orphanages have plenty of children, but in america and australia...Well have any of you *tried* to adopt? It's freakin difficult because the best possible home is ensured for the child to grow up in and in our countries there are less of these "unwanted" children. The foster parents cherish their precious child because they're not easy to find (in america and australia, anyways)
Also, while carrying a baby comes with a lot of stress and pain and social judgement, abortions also sometimes come with feelings of guilt and depression....but nobody ever talks about that.
Why should a baby have to pay for his/her mother's promiscuity?
Also, I think rape cases would be in the minority, I mean, you get raped, you have a 1 in 28 chance, you don't use protection with your boyfriend or you sleep around...well the chances are quite high then.
I can't speak for other women concerning rape, but if I were to be raped and got pregnant, i'd probably carry the foetus to full term and give it up for adoption. Its father might have been evil but doesn't mean the child will be.
...in case you haven't guessed, i'm pro life...
Maybe the best way to avoid shady illegal abortions would be sex education and more options, not just the quick fix of getting rid of it. And if making abortions illegal saves just one life, well then it would all be worth it.
 

Nazulu

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Well I am not sure to call a fetus a living being or not. If it is, I still say women should have abortions but only early on when it hasn't completely developed.

How long till you consider a fetus to be a living being?
 

lostclause

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ZeroMachine said:
No genetecist will mistake human DNA for deer DNA. Why do you think we can identify certain people because of their DNA?
We can identify people because of their differences in dna, and it is those differences which defines our looks, height etc. Does a variation in this disqualify one from the human race? Are males or females the true humans? After all, therein lies our greatest difference. There is only a 1% difference in dna between us and our monkey relatives, should they be included? Should your humanity be measured in the number of base pairs that fit an ideal? Which race is this ideal? What colour is its eyes?
By defining us by our dna it brings a whole host of problems, that's why I don't believe it's a good definition.
 

ZeroMachine

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NoMoreSanity said:
cowbell40 said:
Come now, you're just being silly. Is this really a reason to have something as grave as an abortion done?
Sure, why not? I'm digging my grave here as is.

And no, that's not a reason. Just stating that.

ZeroMachine said:
I just had a discussion involving the whole "pointless in the grand scheme of the universe" thing. I won't derail this thread with my long, drawn out explanation but... life is anything but pointless. If it was pointless, it wouldn't exist. Everything that exists has a point. Why would it exist if there was no purpose? That makes no sense.
HOW!? How do you know this? What makes you so sure? Just because it doesn't have a point doesn't mean it shouldn't exist, we all form our own points. Things just... Are.

I swear if this continues I'm leaving, it's like arguing with Cheeze...

Borrowed Time said:
Snippy Le Pew
I'm not even going to start.
I... uh... I hope that comment about Cheeze isn't pointed at me. I'm not looking at this as an argument, I'm looking at it as a discussion. I don't think you're stupid for thinking the way you do, and I don't think you're wrong to think it. I was simply sharing my view. And again, I'm not about to stop you from supporting abortion.

Sorry if it came off as me being a dick and arguing this thing, I'm just trying to have a civil discussion.
 

lovetropicana

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"I swear if this continues I'm leaving, it's like arguing with Cheeze..."

You're free to leave
Also, your arguement was also vague, typical post-modernism of there is no truth or reality, just differing opinions
In which case you could always just end it in the typical post modernism method of agreeing to disagree?

I just thought of an additional point - foetuses (foetii? foetusus? sigh) *can* in some cases say...be implanted in the fallopian tube, and cause danger to the mother, in those cases i think it's perfectly logical to abort - even if the foetus was allowed to grow, it would still die naturally anyways and kill the mother along the way

But i think my arguement was more generally towards the promiscuous-mother-to-be kinda arguement
 

asinann

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lovetropicana said:
Why do so few people even consider adoption? if the issue is raise-child-in-bad-home vs abortion, adoption should be the best option. In many other countries yes, orphanages have plenty of children, but in america and australia...Well have any of you *tried* to adopt? It's freakin difficult because the best possible home is ensured for the child to grow up in and in our countries there are less of these "unwanted" children. The foster parents cherish their precious child because they're not easy to find (in america and australia, anyways)
Also, while carrying a baby comes with a lot of stress and pain and social judgement, abortions also sometimes come with feelings of guilt and depression....but nobody ever talks about that.
Why should a baby have to pay for his/her mother's promiscuity?
Also, I think rape cases would be in the minority, I mean, you get raped, you have a 1 in 28 chance, you don't use protection with your boyfriend or you sleep around...well the chances are quite high then.
I can't speak for other women concerning rape, but if I were to be raped and got pregnant, i'd probably carry the foetus to full term and give it up for adoption. Its father might have been evil but doesn't mean the child will be.
...in case you haven't guessed, i'm pro life...
Maybe the best way to avoid shady illegal abortions would be sex education and more options, not just the quick fix of getting rid of it. And if making abortions illegal saves just one life, well then it would all be worth it.
Adoption would be great if people actually adopted children over the age of 3.
People who complain about there being no kids to adopt are really complaining that there are no BABIES to adopt. I was up for adoption from the age of six until I turned 18, not one family came forward to adopt me because I was too old from day 1.

As kids get older in the system, their chance of adoption decreases by huge amounts every year.
Once a child turn 4 and they start to remember things prospective adopters start turning away because they don't ever want the child to know it was adopted.

And as for making abortions illegal saving one life, it won't. Until abortion was legal many women died or lost the ability to have children to back alley abortions.
In cases of incest, abortion should be mandatory. The chances of that child being a burden on the state is way too high to let it come to term.

The best overall solution is to teach comprehensive sexual education, but the US government is too damn puritanical to allow that. At least now that Bush is out we can start to get condoms reintroduced as an option since his administration would only fund "abstinence only" sex ed (which has been proven time and again to fail miserably.)
 

Borrowed Time

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NoMoreSanity said:
Borrowed Time said:
Snippy Le Pew
I'm not even going to start.
But... but... I got out my flame retardant Mythbusters suit just for you! Awe, way to let me down. =(

lovetropicana said:
Why do so few people even consider adoption? if the issue is raise-child-in-bad-home vs abortion, adoption should be the best option. In many other countries yes, orphanages have plenty of children, but in america and australia...Well have any of you *tried* to adopt? It's freakin difficult because the best possible home is ensured for the child to grow up in and in our countries there are less of these "unwanted" children. The foster parents cherish their precious child because they're not easy to find (in america and australia, anyways)
Also, while carrying a baby comes with a lot of stress and pain and social judgement, abortions also sometimes come with feelings of guilt and depression....but nobody ever talks about that.
Why should a baby have to pay for his/her mother's promiscuity?
Also, I think rape cases would be in the minority, I mean, you get raped, you have a 1 in 28 chance, you don't use protection with your boyfriend or you sleep around...well the chances are quite high then.
I can't speak for other women concerning rape, but if I were to be raped and got pregnant, i'd probably carry the foetus to full term and give it up for adoption. Its father might have been evil but doesn't mean the child will be.
...in case you haven't guessed, i'm pro life...
Maybe the best way to avoid shady illegal abortions would be sex education and more options, not just the quick fix of getting rid of it. And if making abortions illegal saves just one life, well then it would all be worth it.
Thank you for being another one of the few to stand up against the socially accepted norm.
 

Jedoro

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To me, abortion goes against the document that birthed our nation: the Declaration of Independence.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
If we deny those unborn children the right of Life, then we go against our very foundation. It doesn't say people have to be born to have that right, it says they get it once they're created.

Of course, I agree that women who are raped should get the choice, but only if they are legitimately raped. Stupid decisions carry consequences. But those three rights shouldn't be taken away from anyone. They can be given up, but should never be taken.

Anywho, that's my two cents.
 

Samurai Goomba

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Borrowed Time said:
I'm ready for the flaming, bring it on. =)
You'll get no argument from me. Pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter. Mathematically speaking, it's better for our race to kill one adult rather than abort a child. Even leaving morality completely out of it, it makes ZERO sense the idea that a 30-year old has any more right to live than someone just starting out at life. Regardless whether one believes a fetus is human NOW, it is a FACT that it will become 100% human in time. Is future humanity any less human than present humanity? Past, present and future are all fairly interchangeable terms anyway, once one understands that the dead past is another way of saying the living present, and "future" is always becoming "present."

People who support abortion are quick to bring up rape/incest/"mother or child" instances, but what percentage of abortions in America ARE because of those factors? I'd like to see those numbers. Besides, how is that the fault of the child? If the mother can't stand the kid (because it was a child of rape or some such), there's a little thing we call adoption.