Poll: Best War Leader

[AzrealMaximillion]

Nobunaga Oda is one of the top leaders for sure. Damn near took over Japan and essentially created militaristic rifle warfare. Plus he took an arrow through the freaking neck and lived to kill the man who did it. Not many warlords can say they had a severly life threatening injury hit then and still go strong for a long military career.

 

[Blind Sight]

Scipio Africanus, Roman counterpart to Hannibal. He figured out some of the best tactics to deal with war elephants, which were pretty much the tanks of their time.

 

[SckizoBoy]

Now for my own two cents worth and personal favourite which I've seen all of twice.

Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus

However, I will preface this by saying that he out of (most of) the rest would have been the best to know as a man. Most of the others have ambition (which is a prerequisite for success), but they also had too much ambition which led to their downfall. Alexander the Great (I think he's awesome too, don't get me wrong), went too far and his soldiers were on the verge of mutinying when he wanted to go further east/south into India. Napoleon tried to do too much with too little (Peninsular War/Invasion of Russia... at the same time?!), though credit's due where earned and Austerlitz/Marengo/Jena-Auerstedt were well played.

Anyway, I digress. Scipio fought just the one war and effectively won it through a combination of being a good statesman (newly pacified Sicily gave him free cavalry, not a mean feat, considering how recently Syracuse had been taken), a good tactician (Battle of Ilipa, enough said), a good strategist (basically took over Spain against superior numbers with just four under-strength legions and dodgy Iberian allies), a good politician (he had to deal with the defeatism of some of the Plebeian tribunes after Cannae, though to be fair, he wasn't a curule aedile at the time... plus no-one likes Cato for an enemy) and surrounding himself with other capable leaders (Gaius Laelius, Marcus Silanus and own his brother).

Thus, he could rely on himself (and his subordinates) to get results (none of those three I've mentioned lost their battles either (Cirta, somewhere in Spain I can't remember, Magnesia, different war but argument holds, respectively). But, where I hold him in greater esteem over all others is that he knew when to stop. (I won't bother recounting his tactical innovations, I'm sure several among you will mention them in the course of this debate.)

After his Triumph, I'm fairly sure that he is the only one who ever refused a Consulship for Life and Dictatorship, which is a great measure of character. And under the circumstances, I have to say he was better than Caesar, because Scipio's death ultimately spelled the rise of the Roman Empire (though first in Republican form) while Caesar's death ultimately spelled the fall of the Roman Empire (long time though it took).

Feel free to lambast... as lab awaits.

And replies...

All those who said Sun Tzu (and this will reflect poorly on me because I am of Chinese origin), but I'm fairly sure he was more a military theorist/philosopher than a leader. *shrug* educate me, please...

Wallenstein

I preferred his boss: Johan t'serClaes von Tilly... or better yet, their long time sparring partner, Gustaf Adolf.

I do believe the OP needs to check history properly. Otto was most definitely a war leader.

And your justification being? I've detailed why I believe he isn't, where's yours that he is?

Gen. Robert E. Lee

I was starting to lose faith in this forum before I saw that you posted his name.

Without a doubt, one of the greatest military tacticians and strategists of all time.

I'm inclined to agree, but his military philosophy left a bit to be desired. Towards the end of the ACW, he kept seeking out a decisive battle and frittered away a fair bit of his army that by the time he got his battle, his troops were tired and quite the worse for wear. I'll have to check up on this...

Though people, tell me more about the American Civil War... as an Englishman, I remain sorely ignorant about it.

I'm not sure about the best, but the 1st Duke of Marlborough was a pretty good war leader. Things didn't always go so well for him at peace though.

Respect for John Churchill! Him and Prince Eugene of Savoy... ***** team of the 18th Century.

My personal top 3 is
3. Alexandr Suvorov for reforming Russia's military.
2. Alexander the Great for taking over the known world (died a bit too young).
1. Genghis Khan for creating history's largest empire.
All the leaders on my list never lost a battle.

Suvorov... I keep forgetting that guy's name, but it suddenly brought to mind Abram Petrov Gannibal (Russia's first - as far as I know - black general).

Snip

Yeah, a couple mentioned stuff like that. Anyway, whether Bismarck was a 'war' leader is up for debate. I gave my reasons for justification on the basis that he was a politician only, but with a great deal of influence over military matters (his installation was vital to get von Roon placed as Minister for War so that the military reforms could be done). I would classify him more as one of the best diplomat/statesmen ever, but not as a war leader. For the Wars of German Unification, I'd have to give the plaudits to von Moltke Sr (sorry, but Jr just annoys me) on the grounds of pure militaristics. Though those three made one hell of a tag-team (Bismarck/Roon/Moltke Sr).

PS. all those who mentioned fictional characters: *high fivez for levity*

 

[CouchCommando]

War time Leader, Only because I'm surprised he hasn't been mentioned already I'm going to put forward William Pitt the younger. I mean some serious shit went down in his time.

 

[ChupathingyX]

Sun Tzu.

He wrote the damn book on war. Which has been used in history by other great military commanders.

 

[F'Angus]

Philip II of Macedon, Alexander basically carried on his Ideas. Conquered Greece and united them which helped Alexander Loads. He'd have conquered Persia first too, if he wasn't assassinated (in typical Macedonian Fashion)

Carried on his ideas? Well, yes, he did conquer much of the known world, and large parts of what wasn't in the known world until he'd conquered them before he was 40...I don't think you can really say that his father would have done the same if he'd lived.

He'd have been called "the Great" if he'd had just about anyone else for a son, but he was definitely eclipsed.

Philip was definitely making plans to go on an Asian campaign, he was moving his troops there at the time he was assassinated during a festival. He was the one who reformed the Macedonian Army not Alexander, he gave them the phalanx, siege engines and cavalry and gained extreme loyalty. He conquered Macedon's immediate threats and united Greece. Without all this Alexander would probably never have got out of Macedon. Philip took advantage of every opportunity during a bad time for Macedon.

But yeah he was eclipsed by Alexander.

 

[F'Angus]

'Nuff said.

Actually Yeah

 

[F'Angus]

, if he wasn't assassinated (in typical Macedonian Fashion)

I think it was just a Alien conspiracy.

With people dying as quickly as Macedonian kings did it must've been

 

[Thaluikhain]

More importantly, the Allied forces (predominantly, but not exclusively, the US) developed atomic bombs. As soon as that happened, the Axis powers could not win. The Aliies might have had to remove alot of Europe and the Pacific, but they'd win.

May i point out that the USA didnt join the war till after the battle of Britain. So if the Germans had made all the right decisions, like continuing to attack the RAF and the UK had fallen. Where would you have attacked Europe(Germany)from? As i doubt that there we any planes that could carry a nuke and make a round trip USA-Europe without refuelling in those days.

They'd presumably have to be carrier based, yes (alternatively, deployed by infiltration by submarine). But, assuming that to be impractical...if the US, with its massive increase in industry, couldn't reach Europe, then Europe probably couldn't reach the US, and the war wouldn't progress.

 

[Ninonybox_v1legacy]

man.....im afraid to say this...but its obvious.....Hitler.

 

[Chatato]

Best leader: Napoleon Fo sho' he was all behind the scenes work though so...
Best fighter: Simo Hayah (Search him up he was bloody crazy)

 

[HerrBobo]

Hannibal Bacca. Fought the roman army with less men in most battles, but still managed to beat them in every battle

Aside from that little one, you know, Zama.

 

[Triangulon]

So all it boils down to is: Bernard Montgomery was a fucking twat. (I will qualify that opinion on request.)

And what has that got to do with being a good war leader or not?

OT. I'd have to throw my hat in with Ghengis or Subutai. If only for managing the only succesful winter campaign against Russia.

 

[Ninonybox_v1legacy]

man.....im afraid to say this...but its obvious.....Hitler.

Actually, it's not. We've discussed this already - he may have been an extraordinary public speaker with a good eye for a crowd, but his administration skills were poor, he didn't have a great grasp on tactics and his strategic calls were terrible.

well...it is my opinion, so once again......Hitler.

 

[OneOfTheMichael's]

Actually i'd go with hitler because that man did what was impossible or i'd go with sun tzu because he did right the book on it.

 

[SckizoBoy]

And what has that got to do with being a good war leader or not?

I was in a ranting mood *shrug*, and one of the rants I have is against Montgomery (largely for his opinion of Auchinleck and how much of a pain it was to work alongside...).

Just added it to see if anyone would take me up on it... but OP still sparked a lively debate.

BTW Really must read up on dear friend Temujin (Iron-Worker? I think)... he's looking pretty hard to beat at the moment... *thinks to self... 'teet-muk-djun'... hmmm*

 

[Engarde]

Zhuge Liang, he plays lutes and doesnt afraid of anything.

On a more logical note, perhaps Ghengis Khan?

 

[jubjubbbb]

In my opinion it would have to be Sir Winston Churchill, I mean come on, he led his nation against an unmeasurable onslaught during World War II and wrote some of the greatest speeches in history that rallied and inspired its people. His "fight them on the beaches" speech still brings tears of pride to my eye.