Poll: Biased Gender Politics and Violence

[doggy go 7]

I put "No, violence is violence and should never be tolerated regardless of physical traits." but I'd like to qualify that. Men do take part in the majority of domestic abuse cases. This is an indisputible fact. The causes of this are various, and largly stupid, but that's the way it is. This doesn't make women commiting violence OK, but it does mean targeting ads at helping women makes sence.

Also

I disagree with feminism as a concept, it's flawed.

I believe in equalism. Feminism and masculism ideologies are inherently bigoted.

Feminism=believing in equal rights for men and women. You, sir, ARE a feminist. I believe that you disagree with the practical sides of feminism, but not the concept itself.

 

[occamsnailfile]

Actually, there is an enormous body of peer reviewed research (mostly conducted by psychologist and sociologists) which contradicts this. The most recent and reliable data I have seen for the US showed parity in initiation of reciprocal violence and women initiating 70% of unilateral violence (hardly surprising, given that men are trained no to hit back).

(cut)

This "large body of research" actually doesn't show that, when examined critically. The Conflict-Tactics-Scale has been very widely disputed by the professional research community and even the creators of these studies dispute the use of their work to reach a finding that domestic violence between men and women is in any way shape or form "equal" in terms of who is harmed or who fears for their personal safety. The criticisms are numerous, ranging from sample bias from the screening questions used to the way that "violence" is defined--any touch at all, even if it causes no harm. There's also a much larger, vastly more enormous body of research which does not in any way show this because it is simply empirically false. This post summarizes some of that, with citations. [http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2004/06/26/on-husband-battering-are-men-equal-victims/]

Even if you still believe that men represent a minority of DV victims, I would remind you that significantly smaller minorities have special services and attention devoted to their specific issues, rather than being legally and socially marginalized. Male DV victims face a culture of pervasive ignorance and victim blaming which stems from social conservativism and the traditional gender roles attached to it. Those outdated structures are afraid to acknowledge either male vulnerability or female agency and the results are mutually catastrophic in our modern systems. Bi-directional oppression is an observable reality and we can never help anyone while looking at only half the problem.

Aside from the idea of men being equal victims of violence being completely and utterly untrue, men are more likely to report abuse, more likely to press charges, and less likely to drop them. Men are murdered by their intimate partners at far lower rates than women. In fact, since the feminist movement started and female victims of partner violence began to receive support, the number of men killed by female partners has dropped precipitously to nearly nothing. It still happens, sure, and it gets more media attention because it's unusual--media sensationalism in crime reporting is a separate issue.

Male victimization of partner violence is heavily under-reported but so is female victimization and attempts to claim some vast network of poor suffering men dissolves under scrutiny. For those men who are victimized, support services should exist--and some do. Often womens' shelters will either accept male victims or at least provide hotel vouchers or other accommodations to try and protect those victims. Gay male networks also attempt to address male partner victimization, regardless of sexuality. If there's someone who needs to do more work in this area, it's straight men--they need to be out there building and running shelters, volunteering, and donating money if they feel this issue is important. Instead, supposed mens' rights activists mostly just complain that feminists aren't doing it for them.

 

[Lieju]

Violence against anyone is bad.

Women these days seem all too ready to employ violence against men, maliciously or not. Whether it's just a pinch between friends, a sharp slap after taking offence to something, or kicking a guy hard in the balls (which they often consider funny), a lot of the stuff girls get away with would be met with retaliatory violence if carried out by another guy.

Wow, what kind of people do you hang out with?

That being said, there was an incident in junior high...
I'm a girl, and there was this guy who made unwanted advances towards me. Once he cornered me and pinched my butt, I was scared and hit him.

The guys thought it was hilarious, and that of course me trying to punch a guy meant I liked him.

I think there is a difference in how violence committed by women (especially towards men) is tolerated. On the other hand, women are thought to be always victims, and on the other hand that real men should be able to take it.

These kinds of attitudes only end up hurting everyone, but I think they are changing to a more gender-equal situation.

 

[itsthesheppy]

I'm a middle class white dude and wow, I never knew I was so oppressed! I mean it sure looks like the majority of domestic violence cases are men abusing women, and that the majority of rape cases involve men assaulting women, and that women get paid less than men and occupy fewer position of power in the corporate world and blah blah blah blah blah

But I never knew the SECRET that it's actually us guys who are totally the victims too! It's just like those feminists to cloud the issue! And here I thought my life was totally easy. Turns out I was just fooling myself. Thanks goodness for threads like these to educate me, or I might have gone my entire kooshy, privileged life never knowing about my secret struggle. So secret even I didn't notice it!

 

[TakeshiLive]

I'm all in for equal rights but you just gotta remember that it goes both ways... all the pros and cons.

 

[peruvianskys]

But I never knew the SECRET that it's actually us guys who are totally the victims too! It's just like those feminists to cloud the issue! And here I thought my life was totally easy. Turns out I was just fooling myself. Thanks goodness for threads like these to educate me, or I might have gone my entire kooshy, privileged life never knowing about my secret struggle. So secret even I didn't notice it!

=]

I want to make it clear that I am a man. I am also a person who has be abused in a relationship. I had a partner who hit me and slapped me and has seriously physically injured me before. So please don't think I'm some male-guilt feminist wimp or whatever some are likely to label me.

Domestic abuse is a huge, huge problem for both genders. Threads like this do nothing but divide. It's wrong when a man hits a woman and it's wrong when a woman hits a man. That doesn't mean that somehow this is a zero-sum game where you can only allot a certain number of points to one side or the other. It's silly to criticize anyone except the most ridiculously radical feminists by saying that they don't care about male victims. There is no feminist out there that actively campaigns for domestic abuse against men. Almost all domestic abuse organizations help men as well as women. There is no reason to assume that there is a feminist war against male DV victims. And if there are women out there who are less than sympathetic, it probably has a lot to do with their history of abuse and exploitation.

There are stigmas on both sides. I happen to believe, and I do think the statistics support this, that women in general are more likely to be seriously injured and less likely to find healthy ways to extricate themselves from abusive relationships. It's true that abuse is a universal problem, but too much of these threads seem less like, "I acknowledge that women suffer greatly, but perhaps we don't have a full picture of the entire problem" and more like, "Hey, you women got your time in the spotlight! Back to us!" We have to be careful, as men, that our desire to get rightful justice and support to men in abusive relationships doesn't have its roots, even subconsciously, in a vindictive, jealous anger towards a perceived stealing of the spotlight by women.

Of course I support more work towards giving support and security to those in abusive relationships regardless of gender. But it doesn't have to be a tug-of-war, and I feel like the men in this issue are turning it that way with these bitter, overly critical, subtly misogynistic threads. The amount of attention given to male-on-female abuse is absolutely reasonable - in fact, there should be quite a bit more. That doesn't mean that we can't have appropriate concern for other sufferers as well.

 

[manic_depressive13]

You blame feminism for your having shitty parents and apathetic teachers?

Since we're so fond of anecdotal evidence here: When I was a kid my brother would frequently hit me for no reason. It really hurt and it often bruised. Whenever I went crying about it to my mother she would dismiss it and tell me that was how little boys showed affection.

I blame the communists.

 

[CrimsonBlaze]

The double standard is a male will should lay a finger on a female, while the female should not provoke a male by encouraging violence on them through physical contact.

I doesn't matter who started what in a physical altercation, so long as someone is adult enough to just walk away and avoid from it escalating any further.

The only reason anyone should retaliate from any kind of violent provocation is when their life is in danger or the life/lives of another/others is/are at risk.

 

[Eamar]

Then you'll have to deal with the baggage that comes with wearing a badge usually only worn by fuckwits. 'Tis your problem not mine.

Oh what the hell, I'll bite.

What part of "vocal minority" do you not understand? The majority of feminists are not "fuckwits," just said vocal minority. The same is true of, oh I don't know, just about every other movement in human history.

But you knew that already.

 

[itsthesheppy]

But I never knew the SECRET that it's actually us guys who are totally the victims too! It's just like those feminists to cloud the issue! And here I thought my life was totally easy. Turns out I was just fooling myself. Thanks goodness for threads like these to educate me, or I might have gone my entire kooshy, privileged life never knowing about my secret struggle. So secret even I didn't notice it!

=]

I want to make it clear that I am a man. I am also a person who has be abused in a relationship. I had a partner who hit me and slapped me and has seriously physically injured me before. So please don't think I'm some male-guilt feminist wimp or whatever some are likely to label me.

Domestic abuse is a huge, huge problem for both genders. Threads like this do nothing but divide. It's wrong when a man hits a woman and it's wrong when a woman hits a man. That doesn't mean that somehow this is a zero-sum game where you can only allot a certain number of points to one side or the other. It's silly to criticize anyone except the most ridiculously radical feminists by saying that they don't care about male victims. There is no feminist out there that actively campaigns for domestic abuse against men. Almost all domestic abuse organizations help men as well as women. There is no reason to assume that there is a feminist war against male DV victims. And if there are women out there who are less than sympathetic, it probably has a lot to do with their history of abuse and exploitation.

There are stigmas on both sides. I happen to believe, and I do think the statistics support this, that women in general are more likely to be seriously injured and less likely to find healthy ways to extricate themselves from abusive relationships. It's true that abuse is a universal problem, but too much of these threads seem less like, "I acknowledge that women suffer greatly, but perhaps we don't have a full picture of the entire problem" and more like, "Hey, you women got your time in the spotlight! Back to us!" We have to be careful, as men, that our desire to get rightful justice and support to men in abusive relationships doesn't have its roots, even subconsciously, in a vindictive, jealous anger towards a perceived stealing of the spotlight by women.

Of course I support more work towards giving support and security to those in abusive relationships regardless of gender. But it doesn't have to be a tug-of-war, and I feel like the men in this issue are turning it that way with these bitter, overly critical, subtly misogynistic threads. The amount of attention given to male-on-female abuse is absolutely reasonable - in fact, there should be quite a bit more. That doesn't mean that we can't have appropriate concern for other sufferers as well.

It's hard to say it better than what this guy says right here.

There's nothing more painful to read than privileged dudes all debating what the proper feminist perspective is, as if there is one, or going on about the huge unspoken male oppression, which doesn't really exist. Of course there are male rape and abuse victims. Humanity being what it is, you can find an example of something everywhere, some things more than others.

It just comes off as very unfair to claim that male abuse is equal in proportion, and downright mean to suggest that there's too MUCH attention being given to women's issues.

 

[Eamar]

What part of "The term no longer means what you think it means" do you not understand? Feminist applies to that minority these days. It's what people automatically think of when you say it and it's the type that wears it with pride. The majority that don't act like that tend to distance themselves from the term as much as possible.

In which case I think you underestimate the number of people out there who are still proud to call themselves feminists and are not part of that minority. I can't change whatever experience of feminism you happen to have had, but to write off an entire movement that is still very much alive is plain unfair.

I'm starting to think you may be one of them after all, not some naive soul trying in vain to recover the term and make it mean what it used to mean.

Nice. Tell me, which of my (far too many, I'll admit) posts on the topic of feminism have led you to this conclusion? If you can show me evidence of my crazy, manhating ways I'll gladly accept your assessment and rethink my life. Until then, snide comments aren't going to shock me into your point of view.

 

[lacktheknack]

They always say "'cause women are weaker than men" and that makes sense to them.

They need to understand that men are not universally stronger and women weaker.

This.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fc3MQ-NoGw4/TTvHiaP3nTI/AAAAAAAAGdM/ObPrhFiZjAo/s400/user756_1153371702.jpg

WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW

If that girl punched him in the face right now, she'd better not be charged less than he would, that's just plain old sexist.

I'm personally an advocate of equal rights for all, so yeah. No. Women should have the same rights, same opportunities, and same punishments as men.

 

[NiPah]

despite what you may think, your 'die-hard feminist' mother doesn't represent every feminist in the world. If anyone on this site ever actually talks to a real feminist they'll understand that they do push for gender eqaulity

That sounds like the "no true scotsman" fallacy to me.

I'm just saying, when it comes to the news and feminists on television it's always "men are the aggressor, females are the victim" for everything. If men are the party doing worse like in education the blame is put on men and people say that women are much better when it comes to education.

That's because the news is sensationalist crap that reflects real life as much as reality TV does. That kindof outlook is actually quite sexist, some feminists take the "Victim should have just left earlier" stance since it shows the power the victim has in this relationships. Not all feminists are like this of course, but you can bet a feminist on Fox news saying women are always the victim is a feminist in name only.

 

[Eamar]

Sorry to say but that is what influences the majority of people on feminism. The average person doesn't enroll in a gender studies degree or go on feminist blogs.

And I meant the BBC, not channels like Fox.

Out of interest, what has the BBC done recently that demonstrates this? I'm not saying I doubt you, I'd just like to know as a fellow Brit.

I'd agree that the media does colour most people's views on the subject, but I'd also argue that that doesn't mean that feminism is what the media says it is. I mean, a lot of non-Muslim Westerners' only contact with Islam is through the media, reporting on terrorist attacks and such. That doesn't mean that most Muslims are terrorists or that we should redefine the word.

EDIT: posted before I was done editing.

 

[LadyRhian]

That sounds like the "no true scotsman" fallacy to me.

I'm just saying, when it comes to the news and feminists on television it's always "men are the aggressor, females are the victim" for everything. If men are the party doing worse like in education the blame is put on men and people say that women are much better when it comes to education.

What feminists? Name one.

Maybe it's just like how the media covers Christianity. The ones who turn up on TV tend to be the shits- the ones who oppress others, throw hate on gays and people not of their own religion- because they shout the loudest, while the Christians who get along with others, preach tolerance and acceptance and whatnot don't blow their own horns and are thus overlooked..