Poll: Biased Gender Politics and Violence

[Eamar]

I don't think the BBC has done much or anything wrong.

It's just when things like exam results come out and it's the usual "boys are doing worse for the Xth year" and stuff like that and then the guest X-ologist comes on and says the reasons are X,Y and Z when X,Y and Z are usually the boys fault. Though they usually present it in such a way that it isn't that inflammatory, thankfully.

I think the BBC are a fairly good news channel. (Also, I'm not talking solely about exam results, it's just an example).

Ah, I see. Yeah, I do wish people would stop trying to report on "why are men and women different" stories until we actually have a better scientific understanding of it >.<

EDIT in response to your edit :

EDIT Maybe I'm just really biased, fuck. I need time to think.

I don't know, it's pretty easy to notice these things more when it's your gender (for example) involved. Doesn't have to be a bad thing.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

There's nothing more painful to read than privileged dudes all debating what the proper feminist perspective is, as if there is one, or going on about the huge unspoken male oppression, which doesn't really exist. Of course there are male rape and abuse victims. Humanity being what it is, you can find an example of something everywhere, some things more than others.

First, I'll thank you in keeping concepts of "privilege" out of the discussion, since you're attempting to employ it as a fallacy. That needs to stop.

Secondly, people can debate their personal experiences with any given ideology, because they actually have personal experiences with it. It doesn't matter if it's proper, many things are often interpreted differently by parties that are affected by them different. A feminist agenda, regardless of what it is, will obviously affect certain men differently then certain women. Feminism is such a loose term now it's "proper" definition is a matter of personal perspective.

Third, the unspoken male oppression does indeed exist, you're simply under the impression it doesn't simply because it's "unspoken". The difference is that it's subverted through various disarming means. You simply look at any gender specific stereotype and invert them to discover their oppressive nature. If it affects either gender in the negative, then it's bad.

Fourth, like certain feminist positions, it doesn't matter as to what ratio it exists in comparison to its counterpart. The very fact that it does exist is cause enough for discussion at the very least. The vast majority of *all* violence is primarily perpetuated by men against men, so why suddenly take the arbitrary position that the next statistically significant ratio of men against women is the only reasonable one to take action against?

It just comes off as very unfair to claim that male abuse is equal in proportion, and downright mean to suggest that there's too MUCH attention being given to women's issues.

I'll go ahead and rephrase number 4 again... Male against Male abuse is the most "proportionately significant" statistic in our scale of violence. So if you're argument against the discussion is merely one based on mathematics, then you seriously need to reconsider it's foundation, because you *are* suggesting that male against female violence is receiving too much attention.

I'm against violence unless between two consenting adults. But I'm even more against people taking misguided stances against the discussions about how violence affects men based on some cockeyed viewpoint that it's not a significant enough problem to warrant even talking about it. Might as well stop talking about everything, because there are starving children in Africa that are forced into soldier slavery, and they have it worse than everyone! Bah I say, bah!

 

[itsthesheppy]

snip

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you.

Being male and white and living in the western world is demonstrably better than many alternatives, and there is a preponderance of evidence to support that. But that is not where your point fails. No, your point fails in counting 'male on male' violence as a thing that deserves to be counted alongside gender-motivated violence. That's a smoke screen.

If you feel that women and the issues, dangers and difficulties that are unique to them don't deserve top billing, just say so. If you feel that white men are equally as victimized, say so. You'll be wrong, but I will respect you for at least being forthright.

Nobody is saying that men are not the victims of discrimination and gender-motivated violence. Everyone is. Everywhere. Every single demographic. The question I want to ask is, what makes you so uncomfortable about women getting a focus? Because frankly, I'm not sure what it is you *are* saying.

Women have it hard; on the whole, harder on average than men. It's always been that way, since the dawn of recorded history, pretty much the entire world over with rare exception. Why does admitting and addressing that make you uncomfortable?

I am privileged. I admit it. I acknowledge it. I feel like a lot of white cisgendered heterosexuals like myself have a hard time admitting that; like we're saying it's our fault slavery happened, our fault that women are paid less than men, our fault that something like one in seven women are sexually assaulted in their lives. But admitting that you're privileged doesn't admit any of that. All it does is acknowledge that you're aware that you (and me) were born into Easymode. It's a first step to understanding, and it harms nobody.

 

[Nathan Crumpler]

You blame feminism for your having shitty parents and apathetic teachers?

Since we're so fond of anecdotal evidence here: When I was a kid my brother would frequently hit me for no reason. It really hurt and it often bruised. Whenever I went crying about it to my mother she would dismiss it and tell me that was how little boys showed affection.

I blame the communists.

The reds are always up to no good.

 

[Spoonius]

Why didn't you make more of an issue out of it to your mother or your teachers? If it was genuinely bothering you why not make a stand about it, instead of blaming it on feminism?

Dastardly [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.377676-Poll-Biased-Gender-Politics-and-Violence?page=2#14743386] covered this better than I ever could...

And I didn't explicitly blame feminism, I blamed social inequities in regards to gender-specific violence. Which are reflected in the attitudes of women's rights groups.

Do you know what generally holds back the serious recognition of violence against men? The traditional gender roles of society which weren't (and I know this may come as a shock) created by fucking feminists.

I didn't say they were, and I don't think they were, but they influence everything.

If anyone on this site ever actually talks to a real feminist they'll understand that they do push for gender eqaulity.

I have talked to feminists (as opposed to what you might like to believe), and most of them are decent people who care about equality. But most I've talked to would agree that feminism is purely about pushing for equal rights for women, same as how LGBT movements are purely about pushing for equal rights for a specific subset of society.

I'm guessing your mother's at least a generation older and would have drawn her ideas from the time when the feminist movement as a whole was in its infancy, it has evolved greatly since then.

She was influenced by sexist men (including numerous authority figures she met throughout her life), and her mentality is reactionary. I don't blame her for it, it's a defensive mechanism, but it's clouded her perception of equality.

 

[Spoonius]

In Australia, something like 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted during their lifetime, overwhelming by men. That's something like 2.5 million women, 5 times the population of Tasmania. You go to work every day, how many women are you passing that have been, or will be, sexaully assaulted at least once during their lifetimes?

By contrast, the number of male sexual assaults is about one quarter of that, and again, it's predominantely by men.

Yes, it sucks to be told over and over again not to hit women, and that sexual assaults against men has had "much smaller" confused with "don't bother mentioning". But men are getting a much better deal.

I realise that men are much more likely to be the perpetrators of groping, harassment, sexual assault and rape, and as a man that shames me, but IMO the gender-specific attitudes towards violence in general against men here are unjustified. They're two linked but ultimately separate issues.

It's usually socially-acceptable for a girl to hit a guy, or even a guy to hit a guy, but as soon as a guy hits a girl there's an uproar. Even if it's self-defence, something that nobody would bat an eyelid about if the man was the attacker.

Just want to say it again though, I agree that violence against women is bad. But other forms of violence are too.

 

[Spoonius]

'Women these days seem all too ready to employ violence against men, maliciously or not.'

Based on what? Your own sister who clearly has something wrong in the head (due to influence from your mother, it seems) and two whole other girls you've met during the course of your life 20-year life?

They were examples. Surely you're familiar with the concept?

Now, there is actual evidence that there is a very large number of male victims of domestic violence each year (it hangs around the 40% mark in the UK) and yes, it is certainly under-represented, but let's not start making grandiose statements about how violent the female population is becoming based on three girls, eh?

I was just conveying my personal experiences. I don't think every girl is a violently maniac, but I do think that our society's perception of gender-specific violence is skewed.

Oh, and your Mum's a sexist, not a feminist.

She's both. They aren't mutually exclusive. She's extremely passionate about women's rights.

 

[Spoonius]

As for the OP's point, it just shows an extremely general and limited knowledge of what feminism is.

Um... I said that the purpose of feminism is "to advance the various causes of women".

I really don't understand why you're being so dismissive...

Feminism is equalism. That's what feminism is all about; equal rights and opportunities.

Just an example: my mother was and is what I would consider to be a proper feminist. She knows most of the rights and wrongs in our society, doesn't buy into bullshit statistics like 25% wage differences, and if some woman slapped me out on the street, she probably wouldn't condemn me for slapping back. She's also aware that Western society has started benefiting women in certain ways, essentially switching the roles, all while ignoring the biggest issues we have when facing sexism against women.

Well your mum sounds like an admirable and fair-minded woman.

She's an equalist. Feminism is a subsection of equalism, the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive, nor are they synonymous. However equalism is far more encompassing than feminism, simply because of its broader scope.

That's my take on it anyway, I understand that our perceptions are probably wildly different.

your perception of what makes a feminist is inherently warped and flawed from years of reading posts by "feminists" on various internet forums.

Well, thanks for automatically assuming that I'm a sexist introvert who has no idea what the fuck he's talking about. Really appreciate it.

 

[Spoonius]

What feminists? Name one.

Throw a dart at any random bimbo on TV complaining that men are evil.

Post a clip. Pics or GTFO. This is not actually a thing.

There are obviously going to be radicals, but you can't judge the whole movement on behalf of a few outlying fanatics. That would be like assuming that all gamers are middle-aged virgins.

Feminism=believing in equal rights for men and women. You, sir, ARE a feminist. I believe that you disagree with the practical sides of feminism, but not the concept itself.

Haha, maybe I am.

Although I think feminism is too limited in scope. It isn't always (or even usually) about equality for both genders. So I prefer the term 'equalist'. That isn't me being arrogant or trying to sound unique or anything, I just think it's a more appropriate mentality than feminism.

 

[Spoonius]

I put "No, violence is violence and should never be tolerated regardless of physical traits." but I'd like to qualify that. Men do take part in the majority of domestic abuse cases. This is an indisputible fact. The causes of this are various, and largly stupid, but that's the way it is. This doesn't make women commiting violence OK, but it does mean targeting ads at helping women makes sence.

I know, but when you see ads like this non-stop it starts to get out of hand:

Admittedly, violence against men is starting to gain recognition:

 

[Spoonius]

Women these days seem all too ready to employ violence against men, maliciously or not. Whether it's just a pinch between friends, a sharp slap after taking offence to something, or kicking a guy hard in the balls (which they often consider funny), a lot of the stuff girls get away with would be met with retaliatory violence if carried out by another guy.

Wow, what kind of people do you hang out with?

Australian girls.

I'm a middle class white dude and wow, I never knew I was so oppressed! I mean it sure looks like the majority of domestic violence cases are men abusing women, and that the majority of rape cases involve men assaulting women, and that women get paid less than men and occupy fewer position of power in the corporate world and blah blah blah blah blah

But I never knew the SECRET that it's actually us guys who are totally the victims too! It's just like those feminists to cloud the issue! And here I thought my life was totally easy. Turns out I was just fooling myself. Thanks goodness for threads like these to educate me, or I might have gone my entire kooshy, privileged life never knowing about my secret struggle. So secret even I didn't notice it!

Congrats, you just broke the dial on my shithead-meter!

Ok, so:

1. I'm not white. And race isn't relevant anyway.
2. I never said men are more oppressed than women.
3. I never disputed that men are more likely to employ violence.
4. I never said that the majority of rape cases didn't involve men assaulting women.
5. I never mentioned gender politics in the workplace.
6. Guys can be victims too, it isn't binary.
7. I never said feminists were totally to blame.

Living a "kooshy, privileged life" doesn't give you the right to dick other people around or put words into my mouth.

 

[Spoonius]

please don't think I'm some male-guilt feminist wimp or whatever some are likely to label me.

Is it just me, or do people automatically expect anyone who disagrees with feminism to be a rabid arsehole?

Domestic abuse is a huge, huge problem for both genders. Threads like this do nothing but divide.

Dividing would be me saying that there should be a divide. I was acknowledging an existing division.

It's wrong when a man hits a woman and it's wrong when a woman hits a man. That doesn't mean that somehow this is a zero-sum game where you can only allot a certain number of points to one side or the other.

I'm sorry to sound rude (especially when you're one of the more polite contributors), but what are you talking about?

It's silly to criticize anyone except the most ridiculously radical feminists by saying that they don't care about male victims. There is no feminist out there that actively campaigns for domestic abuse against men. Almost all domestic abuse organizations help men as well as women. There is no reason to assume that there is a feminist war against male DV victims. And if there are women out there who are less than sympathetic, it probably has a lot to do with their history of abuse and exploitation.

Ignorance and negative action are totally different things, and I never said that feminists are out to get males. Just that society's views on violence are selective.

In cases of proposed equality, focusing on specific cases of inequality isn't right. And saying that it's often justified because "it probably has a lot to do with their history of abuse and exploitation" is just a blatantly unfair assumption.

It's true that abuse is a universal problem, but too much of these threads seem less like, "I acknowledge that women suffer greatly, but perhaps we don't have a full picture of the entire problem" and more like, "Hey, you women got your time in the spotlight! Back to us!"

it doesn't have to be a tug-of-war, and I feel like the men in this issue are turning it that way with these bitter, overly critical, subtly misogynistic threads.

I'm a bit taken aback by that...

That wasn't my mentality or intention at all, how the hell did you come to that conclusion?!

 

[Spoonius]

You blame feminism for your having shitty parents and apathetic teachers?

My mum was a great parent and my teachers were all decent people. And once again, I didn't explicitly blame feminism, I blamed social inequities in regards to gender-specific violence.

Since we're so fond of anecdotal evidence here: When I was a kid my brother would frequently hit me for no reason. It really hurt and it often bruised. Whenever I went crying about it to my mother she would dismiss it and tell me that was how little boys showed affection.

I blame the communists.

Ok smartarse, do you think she'd dismiss it as "how boys show affection" so readily now? Would she say that if a guy came up to you and punched you until you bruised and cried? Be honest with yourself.

It just comes off as very unfair to claim that male abuse is equal in proportion, and downright mean to suggest that there's too MUCH attention being given to women's issues.

I never said any of that. If it was implied, it was unintentional and I'm sorry.

 

[Spoonius]

Women these days seem all too ready to employ violence against men, maliciously or not.

Prove it.

That was a subjective statement. I can only give examples based on my own experiences. If you want facts, read through the thread, people mentioned a 70% female instigation statistic.

But selective attitudes and mentalities are doing our society no good. A lot of it is perpetrated by feminist groups.

Prove it is perpetrated by feminist groups.

Prove that they have "selective attitudes and mentalities"? Isn't that pretty fucking obvious? Do they focus on racial equality? Do they focus on LGBT equality? Do they focus on male rights? Do they focus on every issue the human race currently faces?

They focus on women's rights and equality for women. Not always exclusively, and like I said feminism as an ideology covers many means and methods of achieving varying outcomes, but their overall purpose is specialised. You'd have to be an idiot not to see it.

And the movement wouldn't be very effective if it didn't promote its own ideology, would it?...

I disagree with feminism as a concept, it's flawed. My mother proved that.

No, she didn't unless you just proved that all men suck at critical thinking and should never be allowed in any field that uses statistics.

Insults huh? You know how arrogant you sound?

My mother proved that the concept (promotion of female rights and equality while ignoring other pressing gender inequalities) is flawed. Your definition of feminism may be different to mine, but I see equality for both genders as a far more appropriate goal.

And you can't deny that the inequality reinforced by my mother ("never lay hands on a girl") is not reflective of an isolated instance (my mum wasn't an outlier in that regard), but simply her adhering to institutionalised social norms. Either you live in some utopia where this doesn't apply or you're being thoughtlessly antagonistic for shits and giggles.

 

[Panzer_God]

My level of gender bias is simple. I'll start a guy with a fight, I'll end one with a girl. If a guy annoys me, I hit him. I won't hit a girl until she hits me. Once she throws down though, it's on and I drop her like a rock.

 

[Vuliev]

I picked the "Maybe" option, but only if it works both ways (that either a man or a woman (or neither) could get preferential treatment depending on the factors involved.)

I've never bought in to the whole "don't hit a girl because they're weaker on average" because it never made any fucking sense to me. When I was young, I had no qualms about having physical altercations with people that pissed me off to a sufficient degree--whether you were a girl or a boy, made no difference to me. Thankfully, after a handful of incidents, I went to anger management classes and now only shout at the people that piss me off.

Gender should not be a factor--only size/alcohol/provocation/etc.