Poll: Bioware needs to grow up

[josephmatthew10]

I didn't read the post, but Dragon Age has one of the worst stories and was one of the most boring games ever... I tried Mass Effect, and it was about just as boring, so I gave up on it, too.

You should try something more suited to your attention span, in that case. I'm not sure how to help you in this case.

 

[Vault101]

theres nothing juvinile about sci fi/fantasy and theres nothing wrong with good and evil, making it interesting is the key

and theres hardly anything childsih about mass effect OR the first dragon age, they deal with adult issues

 

[CrystalShadow]

I really shouldn't comment because I haven't played any bioware games (I own two, but I haven't gotten around to playing them yet. Go figure)

With regards to KOTOR... It's Star Wars. What did you expect to happen?

What is star wars about?

What's the basis of the Jedi VS sith conflict?

But otherwise, sure.

As to mentioning planescape: torment... Well, I can't comment on the writing, but I've seen the design document. It's hilarious really. (The forums for the game development course I've been doing provided a link to it as an example of how not to write a game design document. I'll admit I can't quite figure out in what sense it's wrong, but then I'm studying game programming, not game design.)

 

[Vault101]

Alternatively titled "Why Dragon Age 2 was a step in the right direction, if they hadn't dropped the ball".


PS - Poll added for shits and giggles. I'm sure the Escapist will eat it anyway.

I dont really like the implication that somthing is "childish" if not every charachter is a total prick or wanker

and in regards to KOTOR..well DUH what did you expcet

 

[lucky_sharm]

Every story can seem seem unoriginal or cliched when you break them down to their very cores. The problem is that you judge Dragon Age only by the surface of it's content and story. It IS explained why Darkspawn are evil. The characters you travel with are actually pretty well characterized and are quite multi-faceted for the most part.

And besides the over-arching storyline of stopping the Darkspawn, you neglect to mention neither the internal conflict of other factions in the story, most of which that deal with the humanity or morality of the characters involved in them.

 

[ShadowsofHope]

I have no problem with wanting to see Bioware go into more ambitious territory with their games and narrative, don't get me wrong. I would just disagree upon the assertion that their games to the modern day are not already on-par with games such as Baldurs Gate and Planescape: Torment, they simply make more use of cutscenes (both interactive and not) and formula cliche's in order to modernize and familiarize their respective genre's with a modern day audience - not entirely the stereotypical nerd-in-the-basement playing the DnD board game with like-minded friends since it's conception, anymore. I loved Planescape: Torment just as much as the next person, but masterful narrative only goes so far in the modern age without the visuals to compliment it's prowess.

My initial hostility towards your OP, however, was primarily the title of the thread, and the "Bioware's games as of late are more geared towards simpletons than it's past games" tone/vibe that many people interpreted it as while reading it. Even if you did not intentionally mean for such a tone to come forth.

I agree that "all story, no game play" is no kind of formula at all if you want your game to sell to any but a fanatical few. I'm not arguing that Bioware copy-paste Planescape Torment right down to the 640x480 resolution and send a generation of gamers screaming into the night. I'm saying that they already have a staff of good writers...all they need is better writing from writers who have already proven to be more than capable of it. That shouldn't take any development resources at all. They shouldn't need to fire their graphics team, or half their voice actors, to hire a stable of new writers just so they can stop leaning so hard on some very creaky formulas. These guys have shown in moments that they can do better.

Oh, they can, I don't disagree. The main issues right now, however, is the involvement of EA in overseeing Bioware projects, and trying too hard to appease the massive monolith of gamers which is the CoD population. Corporate pressure from questionable individuals on one hand, and a very loud demand from a massive group of consumers for more combat-centric games on the other. And while ME2 (for recent example) suffered a bit from this in terms of ability mechanics and over-use of cover-based gameplay (due to pandering to the CoD population), I still greatly enjoyed the story that was on a more personal level for the characters as well as the epic humans/aliens vs. geth/saren/reapers war that was the first Mass Effect. I do think that Mac Walters takes a little too much unwarranted fire because of this, as he was the writer for a second-in-the-trilogy game, which are always notoriously successful at feeling less epic than the first or third game in the trilogy.

The "grow up" is meant to sternly wag a finger in admonishment at Bioware, not the people enjoying the games. I don't want every game to become Proust. I enjoy a bit of Just Cause 2 as much as the next guy. It's just that this is a RPG studio...THE RPG studio, of the present age...that PRIDES themselves on their storytelling. Who else should I turn to and demand better stories from? Bethesda? They're too busy simulating photorealistic creek beds and hiring famous actors to deliver 12 lines of dialogue. Obsidian? They're in enough of a battle just getting their games to run out of the box. As someone else very succinctly put it, Bioware has the influence, the funding, and the reputation to do something really special. ME and DA are wonderful series. They can do better. They can do MUCH better.

They do, and we all know it. But we also have to take into consideration the other factors at play here besides Bioware and it's writers, such as consumer demand from a population that does dwarf the faithful Bioware fans, as well as pressure and meddling by EA. Bioware and it's writers can only do some much, and take so much under EA's hood before EA might take a risky stance and close down Bioware for defying it's wishes and taking a more ambitious step in it's narratives. And no less, none of us would ever want that. It may royally suck for their fans and their games, but they are a business, and they do need to be careful about the toes that they step on (the toes that are also funding them).

 

[Agayek]

But you think Bethesda's stories are great? "OH NOES TEh EVIL GATES ARE LETTIN TEH ENEMIES IN OUR BASE IN THIS HIGH FANTASY SETTING" -Oblivion

Fallout wasn't an original property of Bethesda's, the universe and tone were already created for them.

Morrowind's story was nothing to write home about.

To be fair, Bethesda is not bad at overall stories. Oblivion's plot was basically "help the bastard son of the last emperor protect our country". It's not hugely original, but it was well executed for the most part, and told a rather interesting story. There's a number of problems with pacing in it, but that's more due to the open-world nature of the game than any flaw in the writing.

That said, I would put Bethesda and Bioware at roughly equal places in terms of overall narrative. Bioware is excellent at character-centric pieces, lots of nuances and depth to almost every character they write, but they are utter pants at complex narrative. Bethesda has a similar problem, except in the opposite direction. Their characters are bland and uninteresting, but the overall narrative is engaging, if uninspired.

From a purely story perspective though, Obsidian takes the crown. Every one of their games that I've played has been extremely well told, peppered with interesting characters, and full of depth and complexity.

They have two major faults: 1) They can't write a good ending to save an orphanage and 2) Their games don't work half the time. If you can deal with those, Obsidian is by far the best RPG developer out there.

Now if only the Gaming Heaven [http://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/27/27254.jpg] would get together and do something, we'd be set.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

You know, I think one can always point the proverbial finger at graphics and whatnot as an answer as to why today's RPGs can't be as in-depth as the old school ones. In the old days you simply didn't have as much pretty sparkles to make, so you could sink that time into writing a complex story and whatnot. These days a game is expected to look good and BE good. A pretty tall order to most development teams. So yeah, I'd say if everyone is willing to take a hit in the graphical/programming/gameplay/cool shit we get to do that's NOT related to the story department, then sure! Bring on that deep, complex, supposedly really really good story!

But is it really all that good? Is shades of gray really all that awesome? Is the problem really that there are good guys and bad guys, or is the problem that NONE of the characters, good or bad, are fleshed out enough? Is the problem really the conflict, or just the design of the characters? Take Thane Krios, to name a fan favorite...

Here's a man who is supposedly one of if not THE deadliest assassin in the galaxy. Groovy. We get a few cuts of him doing his thing and sure, you get the idea as to what he can do. But then we learn more about him, and his son, and the spirituality thing and the fact that he has the capacity to be a cold-blooded murderer (no pun intended) basically doesn't even show up again. It's not that Thane is a good guy, or that the Collectors are bad or whatever, it's just that they focused too much on Thane's sensitive side to make him a character you can root for/feel sorry for. All things in moderation, he could have been a bit more cold, a bit more callous when it's business-time. We could have been reminded on occasion that in addition to being a pained father and a dead man walking, he's also a natural-born killing machine.

I've seen alot of gray in my entertainment. I took to some of the franchises and things that I do because I got SICK of all the gray. The world is shades of gray, isn't that enough? Why does my entertainment have to be such all the time too? Again, all things in moderation. A double-agent or a morally ambiguous person, elements of the infamous gray, do not make up for poorly-designed or poorly-used characters. I like what Bioware's done. With all the Fallout-esque games out there showing our future as a burned-out, nuked-up mudball of savages, it's nice to see a positive vision of the future once in awhile.

So no, I don't think Bioware really needs to grow up, so much as they need to learn to use their tools and parts and props and pieces properly and to their best extent. Fans and other people should also learn that while gritty gray can be and sometimes is good, it need not and should not be everything we do and see. We get enough of it in real life, do we REALLY need more in our entertainment?

 

[Assassin Xaero]

I didn't read the post, but Dragon Age has one of the worst stories and was one of the most boring games ever... I tried Mass Effect, and it was about just as boring, so I gave up on it, too.

You should try something more suited to your attention span, in that case. I'm not sure how to help you in this case.

If the story is going to suck or not exist, they could at least have good/fun game play (Painkiller, Bulletstorm), but Dragon Age didn't have that. It was "click, wait for guy to die, click on next guy, repeat". And my attention span isn't a problem. When I want to play a game, I want to have fun and play a game. No read a damn book. If I wanted to read a book, I would, and at least those can tell a story.

 

[Hobonicus]

If you like it, play them. If you don't, shut the fuck up, stop thinking you're some be all end all guru of gaming and the major companies will all change how they make games ot satisfy you.

It's getting ridiculous how often this argument is being used. I'm so tired of people just automatically taking the companies' sides in these situations, as if they aren't making a product for us and we somehow aren't allowed to give our opinions and suggestions.

We should all just take what we're given and never ask for more, right? As free thinking individuals we should never have opinions on subjective matters unless it's positive, right? And only people who love a game are allowed to judge it, right? That's why every game is rated 10/10, right?

No no Bioware, you don't need to improve, I'm sorry for hurting your feelings by criticizing your game. I had no right.

 

[The Random One]

oh yes plucky companions for everyone

I admit I've fallen out of love with Bioware when I realized how formulaic and shallow the conversation system actually is - I hadn't realized it in the first ME, which means it was either better hidden or I was half-asleep the whole time, which considering that I could barely remember its plot when I played ME2 is actually the most likely conclusion - but I can still enjoy it by trying to roleplay instead of following the ultra-obvious leads to 'game' the system. Which is how I play every game, really.

But I think their strenght is how they push their story to the forefront. It's not so much about the story itself as about how it's presented. They make it very clear that the talking to space aliens from space is the important part. That's good by itself.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

The morality... OH GOD, THE MORALITY...
Yeah, its bad as fuck and needs to be fixed. Seriously? You kill off my whole team because I tried my best to balance my character morally? THE FUCK?!
Other than that... meh. Killing ancient evils isn't that bad, and while I did find the political tension in DA2 to have a lot of potential, I found that there was no clear goal whatsoever, making the whole game feel pointless.

 

[RedDeadFred]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

Agreed but there are others who come pretty close. But I will 100% agree and call Bioware my favorite developer with Bethesda coming in at an extremely close second.

 

[Undead Dragon King]

Hey, thanks for the spoilers!

Good job running through each game too, you managed to spoil about 12 years worth of games!

Be careful what you post, or use "SPOILERS" next time, cause that's what they're for.

If any of these was news to you, then you have no-one to blame but yourself for not playing these games years ago. The unspoken rule of spoilers is that they cease being considered such if the game's been out for more than 2 years. Besides, you were on a thread discussing BioWare stories. What were you expecting- half of the content to be redacted?

 

[Sion_Barzahd]

On a whole Bioware run rings around almost every other RPG dev.
Although granted i do think that their key story lines aren't the best.
That can't really be helped though, i mean no game, or their dev, is perfect. I mean take Baldur's gate series, brilliant key stories, but the characters were pretty weak and their "developments" if you can even call them that, were even weaker.

It seems to me that the OP is just going "Waah, my favourite dev isn't perfect." when they seem to be missing the fact that no one is perfect.

 

[Brad Shepard]

Alternatively titled "Why Dragon Age 2 was a step in the right direction,"

I had to stop reading there, Everything about that game was ass, just plain out ass. You DO NOT go from a RPG like Dragon age, and make it into... THAT.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Their storytelling? Fine, im satisfied with it. It's not perfect but they make it gripping enough.

Their gameplay? (you know the much more important bit?) sucks in everything except Mass Effect 2. But then I don't think RPG fans really care about gameplay.

you know you don't have to like it fine, but i DO care about the gameplay, and i buy RPG's because i LIKE the gameplay, alot actually. (not to say i don't like ME2, because i do, it is awesome)

is it really that hard to understand? i don't need super action packed twitch killz every 5 seconds to find the gameplay enticing. i like the turn based set in real time action, which is why i've played kotor 1 + 2 for a combined total of over 100 playthroughs, while DA:O and neverwinter nights i've done probably at least 10 playthroughs on those too.

I'll admit my post was pretty harsh, I should have been more personal about it rather than making a judgment of all RPG players. I'm sick and irritable today (got a bad cold, blocked up throat, can hardly breathe and hurts when I cough). So I apologize for taking it out that way

I don't necessarily need instant gratification either, but I just find the DnD and Turn Based style gameplay incredibly dull because they are nonsensicle in terms of a real fight and unimmersive. I do need my games to be immersive and make me feel like I'm really there in my characters shoes. And it annoys me somewhat their arent many great RPGs with gameplay that I can actually enjoy, because the actual concept of RPGs highly appeals to me.

ha tis all good mate

but i do get what your saying, they don't really have rpg's out right now that show good detailed action with the rpg side still intact, it's either action with next to no RPG, or RPG with DnD based stats/items.

while i love fable, it did drop nearly all of it's rpgness it had to it...and DA2 wasn't what it could've been.

have you tried witcher 2 perhaps? the first one is a bit dry to get through, but the 2nd one's gameplay is a blast IMO (a little punishing, but still fun) and balances out a nice action vs stats type rpg.

 

[Platypus540]

Here's the thing about KOTOR: It's a Star Wars game. Star Wars is all about black and white morality, and any attempts at interesting grey areas are either given the axe by LucasArts or declared non-canon.

I agree that the story was weak and the villains were horrible, but then I pretty much hate Star Wars in general for that very reason.

If you look a little farther, many characters (if usually not the overall plot) are very 'gray-area'. Example: SW: Legacy comics and Fate of the Jedi novels.