Poll: Bioware needs to grow up

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honestdiscussioner

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I had to look up exactly what plucky means:

Having or showing determined courage in the face of difficulties.

This seems a strange thing to pick on. First off, I don't think all of the companions really fit this sterotype. Shale certainly thought they were all doomed. Juhani from KOTOR didn't show a lot of courage, nor did Atton really. Now when you're faced with a major challenge, wouldn't it make sense that your companions at least MOSTLY be courageous? Especially in ME2, when you're trying to select the absolute best in an entire GALAXY. Not like it is slim pickings.

Was DA2 a step in the right direction? Yes and no. It was a great game. Flawed, but great. It just made a shitty Dragon Age sequel.
 

Ragnarok185

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I also think DA2 was a step in the right direction, it was a different kind of story than the generic 'save the world' story that most RPGs have. Don't get me wrong I still like the 'save the world stories' IF DONE RIGHT. I however will remian faithfull with bioware and we shall see how ME3 goes.
 

IamLEAM1983

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Nulmas said:
Oh, well. I guess this is what I get for not researching a game I haven't played in over a decade. :p I figure I got mixed up because Planescape still plays similarly to Baldur's Gate. Did they work with the same engine?
 

wgering

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I'd disagree that people don't want deep and involving stories; I think they might want them, but they don't expect them from videogames.

Games, in general, are about getting away from reality; when one plays a game, there is an element of fantasy involved. Games enable what is impossible in the real world, such as defending the galaxy from ancient unknowable evils.
While it might not be the most original or engaging or complex story, the "hero saves the world" story is one that apparently works for games. I remember being the hero saving the world with my band of plucky companions in The Final Fantasy Legend for the GameBoy. That game was released in 1990, and Square has been pretty much remaking it since then, and the games still sell.

It may be an unfair comparison because it's a JRPG (referring here to the entire Final Fantasy series), but I think the "hero saves the world" model shows up pretty consistently in Western RPGs as well. In Diablo, you literally fight the devil. And again in Diablo II. And presumably once more in Diablo III.

Let me qualify the above by saying that I long ago grew tired of the "hero saves the day" story. After a while it just gets predictable and boring, which is precisely the opposite of what I want in a game.

There are ways to work with the formula though, and I will present as an example Bastion.
Here, the world has already been destroyed. If there were a prequel to Bastion about plucky heroes trying to save the world, then they would all die. And the world would end. Bastion certainly features a hero, doing something that resembles saving a world. "Saving" isn't the word I would use though; "salvaging" is a better fit. Bastion also scores points for its choice system, or, more accurately, lack thereof. There are, if I recall correctly, only two major choices during the game ("battering ram or Zulf?" and the ending choice, for those who have played it). Both of those choices had very significant and relevant effects on the story; carrying Zulf down that corridor, with no option but to endure the arrows and bullets of the Ura and keep going, and to see how their view of the protagonist changed as a result, is and most likely will remain one of the most emotionally powerful sequences I've seen in a game. I nearly shed a tear. Moreover, Bastion doesn't attempt to shoehorn their options into "right" or "wrong." There is definitely the choice of vengeance or mercy in Zulf's case, but either choice would make sense, and one is not morally superior to the other (you may argue that mercy is the "right" or "good" option, and that may be true, but the game doesn't present it as such). Perhaps it's merely that Bastion's choices aren't as diametrically opposed as BioWare's tend to be (more on this later); your choices are merely "Take Zulf" and "Leave Zulf" as opposed to "Take Zulf, reunite him with his long-lost family, give them 10 gold and a ticket to the land of rainbows and happiness" and "Leave Zulf, take all his money, tell his family he's a psychotic mass-murderer and then curbstomp his favorite innocent adorable puppy with a golf shoe."

And this leads me to one of my bigger gripes with BioWare: morality

I don't want games to tell me what is right or wrong. This goes into personal philosophy a bit, but I tend to take a relativist (not to be confused with relativistic! *obligatory physics joke*) viewpoint when it comes to ethics; I think people should determine what is right and wrong for themselves (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not turn this into a debate on ethics. That is not my intention, and this is not the venue). I think Yahtzee does a good job of summing up my criticisms of "morality" in games in his Infamous 2 review, and I would direct you there if you are curious.
What BioWare did that I did like was the companion approval system in Dragon Age: Origins and
Dragon Age II. People have differing opinions, and I like that they attempted to bring that across in gameplay. I wish it were a little more in-depth though, such as characters having opinions on more than one topic (the example that comes to mind is Dragon Age II's "ANDERS LOVE MAGES vs. FENRIS HATE MAGES"). I believe BioWare does a pretty good job with their characters though; they make them fairly likeable, and attempt to make them relatable by giving them flaws and conflicts. They aren't perfect though, often only developing only one or two traits about a character, or basing characters on stereotypes or archetypes.

That said, BioWare characters are still some of my favorite game characters ever. Mordin, from Mass Effect 2, jumps immediately to mind (I admit I may be biased, as I myself am a man of science and was able to relate to Mordin. I never infected an entire species with infertility though.) Mordin is a complex character; he is aware of the devastation of the Krogan as a result of the genophage, and yet he staunchly defends it as the best option. He is clearly troubled by his actions though, as he has since dedicated his life to helping others, revealing a hidden guilt beneath his clinical detachment. He also has undergoes actual emotional growth when confronted by Maelon (during the course of the entire mission), which I will not spoil, but which I will say I found touching.

Personally, I would like to see a BioWare game focused on the characters themselves. Clarification: I would like to see a BioWare game wherein the characters drive the story, rather than just being along for the ride, as they seem to be in the Dragon Age and Mass Effect stories. Unfortunately, such a game would probably sell abysmally, and as such will probably never be made. Game companies still need to make money, which means they're going to stick with what sells, which means stories, in general, won't stray too far from the "hero saves the world" model (limiting ourselves to the RPG genre, remember). I commend BioWare for breaking up the model with interesting bits with their character arcs and witty dialogue, but I shake my head and tut-tut disapprovingly at their insistence of shoving 10+ hours of largely-irrelevant side quests in. I could run through Mass Effect in about 8-10 hours if I only did the main story missions, and as far as the story went, it wouldn't make much of a difference. If you're going to give me optional quests BioWare, please give me a reason to do them besides building my stats. I found myself asking why a Grey Warden tasked with stopping the ancient unknowable Cthulhu Archdemon (if we have the "hero saves the world model," we might as well run with it) would take time to run errands for people who post things on Chanter's Boards.

This post has gotten quite a bit longer than I intended. Oops. Sorry for that brick of text.

Summary: BioWare's main storylines are rather plain and unimaginative, but they add things to give the overall game variety and charm, most notably for me the characters. I wish they would focus on adding quality content instead of quantity of content, but then they couldn't advertise that the game "contains 30+ hours of gameplay!"

Just my two cents.
Please tell me how wrong and stupid I am and how I'm a total n00b BioWare fanboy.
 

Pedro The Hutt

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Snotnarok said:
EmperorSubcutaneous said:
Here's the thing about KOTOR: It's a Star Wars game. Star Wars is all about black and white morality, and any attempts at interesting grey areas are either given the axe by LucasArts or declared non-canon.

I agree that the story was weak and the villains were horrible, but then I pretty much hate Star Wars in general for that very reason.
Yeah I was going to bring that up. I mean it's either good or bad, it IS very black and white to them. If anything I think KoToR expanded it a bit because ...well you could be a badguy doing generally good things?
That said, Bioware are taking great steps towards adding shades of grey to the Sith Empire in The Old Republic, should prove to be interesting.
 

BloatedGuppy

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PuraClassic said:
Obsidian? Polished working games? Bioware not polished games?

Are you trolling/joking here? (I'm not trying to belittle you at all..I'm serious)
The "They just can't put together a working, polished game to save their lives" in that quote referred to Obsidian, not Bioware. I'm aware of Obsidian's hilarious track record with buggy games. I'd have to have been living under a rock not to be.
 

Snotnarok

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Pedro The Hutt said:
Snotnarok said:
EmperorSubcutaneous said:
Here's the thing about KOTOR: It's a Star Wars game. Star Wars is all about black and white morality, and any attempts at interesting grey areas are either given the axe by LucasArts or declared non-canon.

I agree that the story was weak and the villains were horrible, but then I pretty much hate Star Wars in general for that very reason.
Yeah I was going to bring that up. I mean it's either good or bad, it IS very black and white to them. If anything I think KoToR expanded it a bit because ...well you could be a badguy doing generally good things?
That said, Bioware are taking great steps towards adding shades of grey to the Sith Empire in The Old Republic, should prove to be interesting.
You'll have to let me know MMO's aren't my cup-o-tea.
 

80Maxwell08

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IamLEAM1983 said:
Nulmas said:
Oh, well. I guess this is what I get for not researching a game I haven't played in over a decade. :p I figure I got mixed up because Planescape still plays similarly to Baldur's Gate. Did they work with the same engine?
Actually yes I looked this up the other day. Planescape Torment was using it first in development but Bioware used it to make Baldur's Gate. I also learned that Planescape Torment was unfinished. Ok quick question to anyone reading this were the Fallout games unfinished too? Seriously it's like they have never finished a game. I still like them but good grief.
 

MustangVsEnvy

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FBI Agent Reporting In

On the overall subject, I have truly enjoyed Bioware's story telling (well I've only really played the Mass Effect series and read those books). The moral choice system may not be all the hot potatoes its cracked up to be, I believe they excel in character depth. Particualrly I found myself bedazzled with characters like Saren, Mordin, and Thane. The main story and explicit amount to know of within the universe truly has been a great moment for me this console generation, and has easily replaced the story telling of my previous favorite developer Squaresoft. I don't think they are the best and some games marry gameplay and story far better (Bastion would be the best example I can think of this year), however I truly do enjoy Bioware's story they are telling with Mass Effect.

To be transparent I have yet to play Jade Empire (I really need to), any of the Kotor series, or Dragon Age.
 

violinist1129

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First, I completely agree with the OP on Bioware. I got into ME1 because it seemed like an interesting universe at frist, but at about the halfway point. Really, all the best arguments I can make against the ME games were made better by Shamus Young in Spoiler Warning.

On Alpha Protocol, it seems like just about nobody actually understood the plot, which makes me think that video games aren't really ready for that level of storytelling. You had to pay attention extremely closely to get even a vague idea of some of the more subtle plot points. Furthermore, I have never encountered a bug in either Alpha Protocol or New Vegas, even when playing new vegas on an integrated graphics, under min requirements laptop. To me, Obsidian has always delivered more solid experiences than Bioware.

Finally, Bastion is definitely one of the most expertly entwined story with its gameplay, giving me a little hope for the future.
 

Condiments

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Razada said:
I miss my old Dungeons and Dragons friends. *sigh* Who made Baldur's Gate etc? I feel like playing some good old games suddenly and Diablo 2 refuses to install.
Speaking of Dungeons and Dragons, and Baldur's gate I came across some information on Baldur's Gate 3: The Black Hound yesterday and it made me sad. I would like to remind you of a game that have been made, but...sadly won't see the light of day.



Honestly I think if Bioware wants to focus on its characters it should shrink the focus of its plots. Individual character's importance gets lost in the grand scope of things. I think they tried to attempt it with DA2, but ultimately failed due to time constraints and poor writing. Any ONE of those conflicts between either the qunari(can't remember spelling), and mage/templars could have taken an entire game if they tried. They tried to do too much, and as a result each conflict feels underdeveloped.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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Speaking of growing up, you know who I think needs to grow up? Most gamers, Star Wars fans, Sonic fans, and anyone else whose ever used the words "ruined forevar" with a straight face and/or without irony.
 

NoNameMcgee

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gmaverick019 said:
AverageJoe said:
gmaverick019 said:
AverageJoe said:
Their storytelling? Fine, im satisfied with it. It's not perfect but they make it gripping enough.

Their gameplay? (you know the much more important bit?) sucks in everything except Mass Effect 2. But then I don't think RPG fans really care about gameplay.
you know you don't have to like it fine, but i DO care about the gameplay, and i buy RPG's because i LIKE the gameplay, alot actually. (not to say i don't like ME2, because i do, it is awesome)

is it really that hard to understand? i don't need super action packed twitch killz every 5 seconds to find the gameplay enticing. i like the turn based set in real time action, which is why i've played kotor 1 + 2 for a combined total of over 100 playthroughs, while DA:O and neverwinter nights i've done probably at least 10 playthroughs on those too.
I'll admit my post was pretty harsh, I should have been more personal about it rather than making a judgment of all RPG players. I'm sick and irritable today (got a bad cold, blocked up throat, can hardly breathe and hurts when I cough). So I apologize for taking it out that way :)

I don't necessarily need instant gratification either, but I just find the DnD and Turn Based style gameplay incredibly dull because they are nonsensicle in terms of a real fight and unimmersive. I do need my games to be immersive and make me feel like I'm really there in my characters shoes. And it annoys me somewhat their arent many great RPGs with gameplay that I can actually enjoy, because the actual concept of RPGs highly appeals to me.
ha tis all good mate

but i do get what your saying, they don't really have rpg's out right now that show good detailed action with the rpg side still intact, it's either action with next to no RPG, or RPG with DnD based stats/items.

while i love fable, it did drop nearly all of it's rpgness it had to it...and DA2 wasn't what it could've been.

have you tried witcher 2 perhaps? the first one is a bit dry to get through, but the 2nd one's gameplay is a blast IMO (a little punishing, but still fun) and balances out a nice action vs stats type rpg.
I have indeed, the Witcher is my favorite RPG and Witcher 2 was excellent too.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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AverageJoe said:
gmaverick019 said:
AverageJoe said:
gmaverick019 said:
AverageJoe said:
Their storytelling? Fine, im satisfied with it. It's not perfect but they make it gripping enough.

Their gameplay? (you know the much more important bit?) sucks in everything except Mass Effect 2. But then I don't think RPG fans really care about gameplay.
you know you don't have to like it fine, but i DO care about the gameplay, and i buy RPG's because i LIKE the gameplay, alot actually. (not to say i don't like ME2, because i do, it is awesome)

is it really that hard to understand? i don't need super action packed twitch killz every 5 seconds to find the gameplay enticing. i like the turn based set in real time action, which is why i've played kotor 1 + 2 for a combined total of over 100 playthroughs, while DA:O and neverwinter nights i've done probably at least 10 playthroughs on those too.
I'll admit my post was pretty harsh, I should have been more personal about it rather than making a judgment of all RPG players. I'm sick and irritable today (got a bad cold, blocked up throat, can hardly breathe and hurts when I cough). So I apologize for taking it out that way :)

I don't necessarily need instant gratification either, but I just find the DnD and Turn Based style gameplay incredibly dull because they are nonsensicle in terms of a real fight and unimmersive. I do need my games to be immersive and make me feel like I'm really there in my characters shoes. And it annoys me somewhat their arent many great RPGs with gameplay that I can actually enjoy, because the actual concept of RPGs highly appeals to me.
ha tis all good mate

but i do get what your saying, they don't really have rpg's out right now that show good detailed action with the rpg side still intact, it's either action with next to no RPG, or RPG with DnD based stats/items.

while i love fable, it did drop nearly all of it's rpgness it had to it...and DA2 wasn't what it could've been.

have you tried witcher 2 perhaps? the first one is a bit dry to get through, but the 2nd one's gameplay is a blast IMO (a little punishing, but still fun) and balances out a nice action vs stats type rpg.
I have indeed, the Witcher is my favorite RPG and Witcher 2 was excellent too.
ah you are one of the few on here who liked the first one also! *kudos*

i haven't played through the "witcher 2.0" patch update yet, but i plan to over thanksgiving/winter break hopefully, do you know if it makes any significant difference?
 

Ashannon Blackthorn

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Hobonicus said:
Ashannon Blackthorn said:
If you like it, play them. If you don't, shut the fuck up, stop thinking you're some be all end all guru of gaming and the major companies will all change how they make games ot satisfy you.
It's getting ridiculous how often this argument is being used. I'm so tired of people just automatically taking the companies' sides in these situations, as if they aren't making a product for us and we somehow aren't allowed to give our opinions and suggestions.

We should all just take what we're given and never ask for more, right? As free thinking individuals we should never have opinions on subjective matters unless it's positive, right? And only people who love a game are allowed to judge it, right? That's why every game is rated 10/10, right?

No no Bioware, you don't need to improve, I'm sorry for hurting your feelings by criticizing your game. I had no right.
Congrats on not only missing the point, but somehow getting a one way ticket to Antarctica to boot. :)

Yes you have the right to criticize. Everyone does. My beef is with the people who think because they have an opinion, that it's the only right one and everyone has ot agree and acknowledge it.

You don't like the game? don't play it. Stop trying to tell everyone else they should not like it as well.

So you don't like Bioware's games? Guess what, millions do. So guess they doing something right eh? But then again, I'm just a brainless fanboi so guess my opinion don't count either eh?
 

McNinja

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bz316 said:
This is an interesting thought, but I have to disagree. Bioware has generally made games with excellent conflicts concerning the true nature of morality and how best to deal with the situation in front of you "correctly". Even in the KOTOR games, set in the Star Wars universe notorious for over-generalizing the concept of good and evil, has hidden complexity in the subtext. One of the reasons there is so much support for the Sith in those games is the implication of centuries of oppression by the upper classes of Republic elite grinding the poor and minority 'neath their heel and decades of government corruption. Even choosing to go to the Dark Side is put into a greater context in KOTOR 2 and TOR, due to the revelation of the "true Sith" and Revan's quest to prepare the galaxy for a wider threat by any means necessary. The story thus takes a detour from "good vs. evil" to "greater evil vs. lesser evil" and "ends vs. means." Same for the Mass Effect series. Even though it takes place in the wider context of ancient machines coming to cull all life, the means by which you try to prevent that show a great grasp of the concept of complex morality. Do you release the Rachni Queen hoping for aid against the coming tide and out of concern for your personal detestment of genocide, or do you kill her, eliminating a potentially massive risk to the galaxy from returning again? Do you re-write the Geth Heretics for new allies, or do you destroy them in an acknowledgement of their right to self-determination (i.e. is submission perferrable to extinction, something your old nemesis argued with you?)? Yes, it is easy to denounce the decisions you're presented with as black and white, but I think in the larger picture, the subtext found in Bioware games points to a hidden sophistication not being recognized by this thread author.
BloatedGuppy said:
Indeed.


McNinja said:
Now, some games are simply this and have terrible stories and characters, but games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age: Origins have a boatload of nuances to the stories that set them apart.
A boatload? I think you're being overly generous. They have nuances, yes. They also have an incredibly simple and cliched central narrative structure that they like to hang those nuances off like garlands. I think they can do better. I'd even go so far as to say those little nuances floating off the starboard side indicate that they can definitely do better.

Some people appear to prefer a very gung-ho, pared down central narrative with big bads to slay and universes to save, and really...that is their prerogative. They have LOTS of games to choose from to suit their fancies. I would like a few more to suit mine...or at least more than 1-2 every decade, and this apparently makes me Hitler.
Maybe i am exaggerating about how many there are, but read the other post I quoted. He hits the nail on the head.

The purpose of the most was to say that when you get down to it, all games have some sort of cliche'd centralized narrative. Bioware simply follows a narrative structure that works, and then adds characters, morality, and other shenanigans to it that make it a thousand times better. Could BW improve? Probably. DA2 was interesting, but due to the content of the story/plot the execution needed to be far better than it was (because playing politics is not really all that fun). The narrative in BW games isn't pared down until you do it (although ME2 was fairly straightforward with the plot and more about the new characters), and that sort of over-simplification of things that aren't that simple won't help anything, especially in the search for a better narrative.