Poll: Bioware needs to grow up

[Smooth Operator]

So what you are suggesting is to push for Dragon Age: Family Issues and Drama?
Well I kind of suspect you can find a more realistic version of that if you have a good long sit down with your family, maybe tell them you're gay to really kick it off... and I suspect people turn to Dragon Age because they have other preferences.
Presumably developers made a game about magix and dragons for the people who like magix and dragons, I'm only guessing here of course.

So might I suggest a game that doesn't involve dragons or robots to remedy the problem.
Desperate Housewives the game perhaps?

 

[Imre Csete]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

It's the storytelling they are really good at, not in crafting the story. Their building up until the point of no return (Leviathan, Imperial Palace, Ilos, Landsmeet, Omega-4), then setting up a roller-coaster like last part formula works like a charm.

 

[IamLEAM1983]

It's just...I keep coming back to Planescape. Or even Mask of the Betrayer. Why can THEY do it? Why is Planescape oozing with imagination and mature, thoughtful, thematic depth, and a decade later I'm fighting "The Darkspawn" who are trying to take over the world. Why? Because they're evil, that's why!

Honestly? I'd say because BioWare only had to lean on TSR's licensed material in order to produce Planescape's narrative. Odds are they really dug the universe and tried to do what they could with it - but they didn't have to build it from the ground up.

With Dragon Age, especially with the shift in tone between Dragon Age and DA2, sometimes makes me say that, unfortunately, BioWare's writing staff probably isn't fully up to snuff with handling original IPs. They've proven that they're wonderful makers of licensed games, but drop them on a blank canvas, and the end result feels like someone took a quick and dirty narratology class and just filled the blanks with the required elements.

As someone else above me has said, Obsidian is basically BioWare's nega-verse twin. They make incredibly engaging universes and stories, but the end result typically is a bug-ridden mess. Neverwinter Nights 2 and Fallout New Vegas were absolutely salvageable in my perception, but Alpha Protocol just lost me. No matter how interesting the setting and characters were. AP embodies everything that's great and also horribly wrong about Obsidian.

 

[cybran]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

I have to disagree with you.

Bethesda and obsidian are alot better to immerse the player using a good story.

Bioware is just faaar too cliche. Sure its great if you're 10-12 years old and just stopped watching Bambi on a daily basis.
But I think the bioware dialogue is horrid and unimmersive.

 

[Zhukov]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

Simply untrue. Obsidian is head and shoulders above Bioware in terms of quality of narrative. They just can't put together a working, polished game to save their lives.

Would you say Alpha Protocol is a good example of Obsidian's narrative chops?

(Using that example because it's the only Obsidian game I've played.)

If he says yes, he should be shot. Its PMC Plot Line #333 (albeit one with a wildly inconsistent tone) - the game's only redeeming feature was how malleable the story was, but that's rather redundant when it makes you want to shoot yourself.

Yeah, that's basically what I was thinking, with an added mention of lacklustre dialogue.

But don't worry, he said "no".

 

[Something Amyss]

No more Archdemons and Reapers and Sith Lords bent on destroying the galaxy because OMGSOEVIL. Enough of that shit. I'm not 12 any more, and neither are you.

I don't know, the Reapers were pretty cool.

Let me be clear on this: They were still cliché, but they managed to be interesting.

ME2 kinda blew it for me, but whatever.

And honestly, what are they going to do with Star Wars? It's pretty much all boyish fantasy about epic good v evil.

Though the moral choice system can fuck right off as long as it remains "Act like Martin Luther King or Act Like Hitler."

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

I'll admit, it drives me a bit nuts seeing moral choices boil down to "power an orphanage" or "electrocute a box of kittens". Wheres the "do nothing" middle ground option? Wheres the "Hire a competent electrician" option? What about the "just get the damn orphans a family" option?

Wheres the "invent combustible lemons and throw them back at life?" option?

Yea they need to remove the whole Top choice is good bottom one is bad thing, red/blue, etc. I would enjoy it far more if the answers were not so black n white. So by the end I can look at my morality standing and discovery the truth, that yes I really am an asshole.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

Simply untrue. Obsidian is head and shoulders above Bioware in terms of quality of narrative. They just can't put together a working, polished game to save their lives.

Obsidian should just write books. They can't create a functioning game to save their lives. That's the problem with the games industry, having to make the whole 'game' portion, isn't it?

 

[Anti Nudist Cupcake]

Here's the thing about KOTOR: It's a Star Wars game. Star Wars is all about black and white morality, and any attempts at interesting grey areas are either given the axe by LucasArts or declared non-canon.

I agree that the story was weak and the villains were horrible, but then I pretty much hate Star Wars in general for that very reason.

Kotor 2 had the grey area, it was practically the main theme. Developed by obsidian.

 

[Ace of Spades]

I always love one-sided polls, especially options that insult you if you don't agree with the OP. Apparently if we don't vehemently hate science fiction and fantasy cliches, we are mentally twelve years old.

 

[Frostbite3789]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

I have to disagree with you.

Bethesda and obsidian are alot better to immerse the player using a good story.

Bioware is just faaar too cliche. Sure its great if you're 10-12 years old and just stopped watching Bambi on a daily basis.
But I think the bioware dialogue is horrid and unimmersive.

But you think Bethesda's stories are great? "OH NOES TEh EVIL GATES ARE LETTIN TEH ENEMIES IN OUR BASE IN THIS HIGH FANTASY SETTING" -Oblivion

Fallout wasn't an original property of Bethesda's, the universe and tone were already created for them.

Morrowind's story was nothing to write home about.

 

[scorptatious]

The poll is kind of bias.

Personally I'm happy with the Mass Effect storyline. I thought the narrative was interesting and the characters were quite interesting. I can kind of see where you're coming from though, it does seem like Bioware likes to use the same basic story structure for their games.

Although I'm not exactly sure what this has to do with "growing up".

 

[Sixcess]

I want MOAR Evil Robots, tyvm.

Mass Effect has some touching/thought provoking/involving characters and subplots, but Shepard herself is so infallible she's about as deep as Flash Gordon... and that's the way I like her.

Nothing against 'grown up' games, but sometimes I don't want to wallow in shades of grey and moral complexities for a full game. Shepard is a kick-ass galactic hero who saves the galaxy when she's not busy teaching aliens about 'this thing you humans call love'. It's not grown up or particularly deep, but it's a lot of fun.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I always love one-sided polls, especially options that insult you if you don't agree with the OP. Apparently if we don't vehemently hate science fiction and fantasy cliches, we are mentally twelve years old.

I fixed the poll for you.

 

[Something Amyss]

With Dragon Age, especially with the shift in tone between Dragon Age and DA2, sometimes makes me say that, unfortunately, BioWare's writing staff probably isn't fully up to snuff with handling original IPs. They've proven that they're wonderful makers of licensed games, but drop them on a blank canvas, and the end result feels like someone took a quick and dirty narratology class and just filled the blanks with the required elements.

I sometimes wonder if Mass Effect was a fluke. It's the only time one of their original properties has actually engrossed me. It was cliché, but it did it right.

ME2 lost me. DAO lost me. Hell, half the people who defend DAO seem to do it because it was a "proper PC RPG" or some such. not so much because it was a good game, but because it was a throwback to someone they really wanted.

Granted, I'm so starved for good Beat 'em Ups I even bought Onechanbara, so I'm not condemning them, but neither am I pretending it's a brilliant game.

Apologies if I piss off any Bioware fans, but it does seem like the one story they told that intrigued me was happenstance, rather than designe.

 

[RagTagBand]

Whilst not perfect Bioware are still better than everyone else.

Simply untrue. Obsidian is head and shoulders above Bioware in terms of quality of narrative. They just can't put together a working, polished game to save their lives.

LOL Very funny, I guess that's why I can't help but trip over all these threads and comments about how amazing Obsidian Entertainment is at story telling...Or even mentioning them at all.

Alpha protocol? Terrible story, terribly executed.

Kotor 2? not bad, but Has nothing on Kotor 1.

New Vegas had an "Okay" story, certainly nothing to write home about.

Dungeon Siege 3? Christ I don't even need to explain anything there. Fucking terrible.

Haven't played neverwinter nights, but I sincerely doubt that they pulled anything fantastic out of nowhere.

Biowares story telling, however, is regarded as being one of the best in the industry, along with the likes of Rockstar. There's a reason why even heavily critical Zero Punctuation notes it's just a given a bioware game will have great writing.

You wanna believe that obsidian has bested bioware, a highly critically acclaimed-for-story-telling developer, in story telling? Fine, be my guest. I wanna believe there's a million pounds in my bank, But I guess just believing it against all evidence doesn't magically make either of those things true.

 

[DaWaffledude]

I've always felt that in Bioware games, the main plot is merely a frame for the gameplay and various sub-plots

 

[Mr. Omega]

Let's play the Bioware Mad-Lib!

After ____________(number, or just put many) years, the ancient and/or hidden group the ___________(name) have returned to __________(evil thing) the human race/galaxy/kingdom . You play as ____________(name), a member of the elite and/or secretive group the _________(name), and it's up to you to gather a ____________(a type of group), and prepare to battle the ____________(#2), all while deciding with moral choices if you are going to be a ___________(good option) or an _______________(evil option)


Using this guide, you can summarize the vast majority of Bioware's game library. You can probably do this with Nintendo as well. Here's the difference: Nintendo isn't getting critical and public praise for its storytelling or writing skills. Bioware can make great, enjoyable and likable characters. They just put said characters in the same story over and over again. People are mistaking Bioware's ability to write good characters and putting a little more focusing on them for Bioware being top-of-the-line storytellers. This isn't saying that they make bad games, they just aren't "the best storytellers in the business".

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Hell, half the people who defend DAO seem to do it because it was a "proper PC RPG" or some such. not so much because it was a good game, but because it was a throwback to someone they really wanted.

Oh, DAO is an absolute blast, if you look at its mechanics alone. I'm from the crop of folks who grew up playing Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, so DAO absolutely felt like a return to form. As soon as the characters flapped their mouths, though...

Eh. I enjoyed it, but probably not for the right reasons. I was having too much fun pulling the camera back and timing my characters' actions shot for shot, the way I used to do back in, oh, 1998.