Poll: Dark Souls: Time to Put Up or Shut Up.

[DementedSheep]

Why the hell would it require them to start with easy and then scale it up instead of the other way around? I'm pretty sure most game are balanced for the intended difficulty first.

I haven't seen one game lately that hasn't designed the game for it's intended difficulty.. which is "Normal or Easy", then tack on "Hard or Insane", which simply means.. no design changes whatsoever, except the enemies shoot you for more damage. Not terribly exciting.

It doesn't matter what most games have as there intended difficulty. Most games being too easy on normal is a completely separate issue. No one is asking for normal difficulty to be made easier or more similar to the average AAA game. There is no reason at all why they would have to make the normal difficulty easier to add a scaled down easy mode. If anything I would have thought having an easy mode would do more to protect the normal Dark Souls difficulty. If there is only one difficulty setting, they know people are getting put off by the difficulty and they want wider appeal they might just make the whole game easy or have its start slower (which is what it sounds like they are going to do) which would effect everyone.

If you wanted to do it the way you suggested, then "Easy" mode would be barebones and completely boring, they would just start cutting out all the concepts that exist solely because it caters to the unforgiving nature of Dark Souls. Then you would just have a mediocre, bland RPG. I mean, I don't even see the point..

Difficulty is relative. I or you might not find the easy mode difficult enough and it would make the game boring but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be enough for someone else. An easy mode can be easy relative to the normal difficulty so it wouldn't necessarily be a snooze feast, you could just have more room to screw up before you die and lose all your souls. Beside there is more to like about Dark Souls than the challenge alone. I like the art direction, the subtle way the it tells the story, finding secrets and the lore as well.
There are plenty of things in games I personally find pointless, that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.

Whether the easy mode is damaging or not depends on how it's done. Of all the ways to open a game up to more people I think adding a optional mode is the lest damaging way to do it.

 

[The_Echo]

No. Stop this. I am so sick of this same goddamned argument. Why is it just Dark Souls, anyway? There are plenty of other ball-busting games out there. Nobody seems to give a shit that those don't have easy modes.

You know what I think? I think some games are developed to be easy (read: Kirby) and some games are developed to be hard (read:Dark Souls), and some games are developed to be however difficult you want (read: most games).

Why in holy fuck do you guys want an easy Dark Souls? Let's be completely honest: if it were easy... would it even be good? The plot is minimal (not bad, just minimal) and the world is a glorified hallway with enemy obstacles. The difficulty is integral to the game's design. Without it... it just isn't the same game at all.

HOW HARD IS IT to put in a page, that tells what the symbols mean? This is your weapon damage, this your weight, this is whatever.

There's a button on your stats screen that does that (Select on PS3, assuming back on 360). Also on individual items, their stats are labeled with the symbol and text.

snip

Why the hell would it require them to start with easy and then scale it up instead of the other way around? I'm pretty sure most game are balanced for the intended difficulty first.

He means that, because the game is built around and with every intention of being difficult... putting an easy mode in it would be... ungraceful. It wouldn't work. It would be artificial easy, or a solid easy mode with artificial hard modes.

To have both easy and hard in Dark Souls would essentially mean to develop the game twice.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Lemme know when you're done dismissing me as wrong because you disagree with my reasoning.

You're aggressive for someone who was basically being agreed with on the one hand.
Or was it because I felt the tacked on Hard mode in Dragon's Dogma simply did not work out? (note I enjoyed Dogma quite a bit - even have the plat).

Weird.

Whatever.

Cheers.

edit: Although I fail to see how accepting that a better tutorial is viable sounds "puffed up".
Like I said in my original post, I said my piece. The horse is dead. I'm out.

Your statement wasn't merely that a better tutorial is viable. It's because it's that nothing else is viable because you don't believe so, thus dismissing the rest of us plebs as incorrect. Ergo, your statement sounds quite arrogant and puffed up. I'm not aggressive because you disagreed about Dragon's Dogma's hard mode. I'm aggressive because the way you worded your statements comes off as condescending.

 

[DementedSheep]

No. Stop this. I am so sick of this same goddamned argument. Why is it just Dark Souls, anyway? There are plenty of other ball-busting games out there. Nobody seems to give a shit that those don't have easy modes.

You know what I think? I think some games are developed to be easy (read: Kirby) and some games are developed to be hard (read:Dark Souls), and some games are developed to be however difficult you want (read: most games).

Why in holy fuck do you guys want an easy Dark Souls? Let's be completely honest: if it were easy... would it even be good? The plot is minimal (not bad, just minimal) and the world is a glorified hallway with enemy obstacles. The difficulty is integral to the game's design. Without it... it just isn't the same game at all.

HOW HARD IS IT to put in a page, that tells what the symbols mean? This is your weapon damage, this your weight, this is whatever.

There's a button on your stats screen that does that (Select on PS3, assuming back on 360). Also on individual items, their stats are labeled with the symbol and text.

snip

Why the hell would it require them to start with easy and then scale it up instead of the other way around? I'm pretty sure most game are balanced for the intended difficulty first.

He means that, because the game is built around and with every intention of being difficult... putting an easy mode in it would be... ungraceful. It wouldn't work. It would be artificial easy, or a solid easy mode with artificial hard modes.

To have both easy and hard in Dark Souls would essentially mean to develop the game twice.

I don't think so unless by "easy" you mean near impossible to die and a toddler could complete it which is unnecessary. If they tweak some things like enemy damage (though I think increasing player damage would be overkill), stamina consumption, condition build up, how easily staggered you are and maybe have it so you only lose half of your souls on death or make them disappear after two rather than one subsequent death it would make the game easier. It might not be perfect but I think it would work well enough.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

.

I wasn't trying to shove words in your mouth. That's the effect your wording is giving off. You come off as very "I'm right, you're wrong."

 

[Ninjat_126]

I don't approve of difficulty modes, except for "OH GOD NO PLEASE MAKE IT STOP" and "ARE YOU KIDDING ME I THOUGHT IT WAS OVER."

Well, not entirely. I loved Dark Souls, and I think the lack of a "difficulty level" made it a better game. No messing around with how the game's set, it just is what it is, and you learn to put up with it.

So yeah. I'm in favour of not putting difficulty settings in games at all, and just making sure there's a nice learning curve for new players and a Challenge mode for "hardcore" fans.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

.

I wasn't trying to shove words in your mouth. That's the effect your wording is giving off. You come off as very "I'm right, you're wrong."

Am I not permitted to believe that I am correct when I present an opinion?
Weird that I should feel as if I'm wrong.

Again, it seems to be your issue here. Not mine.

Obviously you didn't get what I was trying to convey. Neither of us are getting anywhere, so I'll leave it at agree to disagree.

 

[AperioContra]

Seems to make sense to me. I enjoy the game and I don't see a reason to exclude people who don't have nearly as much time to master the controls and enemy patterns from having as much fun from the game. It doesn't really seem like it will effect my playing at all to give people the OPTION of starting out on an easier difficulty.

Understand, I played Demon's Souls as a Magician my first time. That is the Hard Mode of Demon's Souls (until you get homing mass). And because a good friend and I have figured out a way to team up (for the record he lives half way accross the continent from me, so this is the only way in which we can hang out, it's not about making the game easier for either of us), I've logged in more hours in Dark Souls than I think can be considered sane. And my friend and I have already vowed to get Dark Souls 2 the second it comes out so we can start playing it. I don't plan on changing my difficulty for Dark Souls. But I don't why the option shouldn't be there. It doesn't effect my game. No, it doesn't effect it in the slightest, no matter what you want to say, just because it's an OPTION, doesn't mean it matters.

I think it's a little sad that people are beginning to draw lines in the sand on this. If From Software wanted to just make the game easier, yeah I can understand why people would be pissed, challenge is part of the game. But they just want to make the game more inclusive, and that doesn't bother me and it shouldn't bother you. Literally the only reason it should effect you at all is that you intend to use it. And you shouldn't be bothered if you intend to use it.

I just hope they make it easier to hook up with a specific person. I hate spending 30 minutes trying to link up with my friend for some demon hunting.

 

[Broderick]

Seems to make sense to me. I enjoy the game and I don't see a reason to exclude people who don't have nearly as much time to master the controls and enemy patterns from having as much fun from the game. It doesn't really seem like it will effect my playing at all to give people the OPTION of starting out on an easier difficulty.

Understand, I played Demon's Souls as a Magician my first time. That is the Hard Mode of Demon's Souls (until you get homing mass). And because a good friend and I have figured out a way to team up (for the record he lives half way accross the continent from me, so this is the only way in which we can hang out, it's not about making the game easier for either of us), I've logged in more hours in Dark Souls than I think can be considered sane. And my friend and I have already vowed to get Dark Souls 2 the second it comes out so we can start playing it. I don't plan on changing my difficulty for Dark Souls. But I don't why the option shouldn't be there. It doesn't effect my game. No, it doesn't effect it in the slightest, no matter what you want to say, just because it's an OPTION, doesn't mean it matters.

I think it's a little sad that people are beginning to draw lines in the sand on this. If From Software wanted to just make the game easier, yeah I can understand why people would be pissed, challenge is part of the game. But they just want to make the game more inclusive, and that doesn't bother me and it shouldn't bother you. Literally the only reason it should effect you at all is that you intend to use it. And you shouldn't be bothered if you intend to use it.

I just hope they make it easier to hook up with a specific person. I hate spending 30 minutes trying to link up with my friend for some demon hunting.

Yeah, I think the major problem with the co-op/pvp was finding people to fight/invade. A good lot of the time, I was either over leveled or under leveled for a specific area for pvp. Besides that, it apparently takes half and hour or so for your connection to pick up the various IP's of other players to do the co-op or invasion stuff. I think this was due to the peer to peer system. From what I understand, they are going back to servers in Dark Souls 2 in order to help alleviate the problem.

 

[Master_Fubar23]

This topic is a virus; why can't it go away? :'-(

snip.

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*Groan* Sure, I'll bite. Seems to me that you're missing that the core element of Dark Souls that binds everything together is the difficulty. I highly doubt that people would have enjoyed Dark Souls if it was easier. We would have also dismissed it as a mediocre RPG with some interesting enemy designs if not for the difficulty that made us feel the experience that the game was offering to us.

This is where people like (the developers) can use their brains and put a little notification stating "this is not how we intended Dark Souls (or Dark Souls 2) to be played. For the best experience please play normal." Plenty of horror games give these types of notifications so the best experience can be achieved either by making the screen darker, by playing with headphones, by playing in the dark, or whatever they want the player to do but it?s the players choice to choose to. Even the hobbits director stated the movie is meant to be seen in the 48 frames per second version BUT they came out with a version a majority of people liked too. Everyone bitching and trying to defend a lack of an easy are just wrong. There is no harm playing on easy and then moving up to the original. Even the developers stated they were sad how people couldn?t enjoy the game as it?s supposed to be so how are they going to get people who won?t even give it a try? By adding an easy mode in DS2 and placing a notification that the developers would like them to play the game in its original form but the player is free to choose which mode they want to enjoy. What you fail to realize consumers support businesses by purchasing products and games are no exception. You are not entitled to having a game cater to just you and the elitists who feel the series is going to get dumbed down but I?ll let you in on a secret. They already did that for Dark Souls. Go play Demons Souls if you think I?m wrong.

 

[Master_Fubar23]

You can't just give Dark Souls an "Easy Mode" and call it good. This is so naïve... I'm sorry, it just is. For those that are not interested in Dark Souls because it is 'too hard or improperly so' or think the community is 'elitist'... well, some advice -- Move on I'm sure you can find another game out there.

I don't even like Dark Souls that much, but I love, I mean absolutely adore having it there when I'm in the mood for something like that. NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT EXISTS.

People keep saying, "Well do what New Vegas did and give it an optional Hardcore Mode." All I can say to this is --- wut

New Vegas Hardcore mode was only hardcore in name only. It was clearly an unrealized concept that they tacked in on the finished product instead of building it from scratch. Okay game is done, make it so you have to eat it a little food & water from now on... -- HARDCORE MODE --

Tacking on an Easy Mode to Dark Souls would require building the game up from scratch as Easy. "Regular/Hard Mode" would end up being just "tougher enemies", and that is not at all what is difficult about games like Dark Souls. Conceptually, games like Dark Souls are punishing the first concept until the finished product. Making for an easy mode would drastically interfere with that... and for what, so people that are not even interested in the game and say everyone that plays it is an elitist twat can... play it.. for 5 minutes and move on to something else. Yea, no.


---

Seriously folks, it is one game. One game. If you do not like it, or you disagree with some of it's design choices then you may simply choose from any of the other thousands of other games more suited to your style of play. It's not rocket science, it's not shameful, it doesn't mean the game sucks or that the community is elitist.. it just means the game is not for you.

It?s not just one game. It?s turning into a series where its story?s depth is amazing. However, trying reading the reset of the posts on this thread to understand how naïve you are. Especially how you stated how they would have to make the game from the ground up for an easy mode. Do you even realize how games are made? That statement was just so silly it was sad to read. A game's difficulty or game play aren't the only reasons to play a game ffs.

 

[nexus]

It?s not just one game. It?s turning into a series where its story?s depth is amazing. However, trying reading the reset of the posts on this thread to understand how naïve you are. Especially how you stated how they would have to make the game from the ground up for an easy mode. Do you even realize how games are made? That statement was just so silly it was sad to read. A game's difficulty or game play aren't the only reasons to play a game ffs.

Oh really?

Are you going to sit here and tell me in a straight typeface that people play Dark Souls for the interesting story? The art is good, atmosphere is decent, but to only play it for that? Nah.

You and I both know the reason people play Dark Souls. It's for the challenge.

You are also damn right difficulty or gameplay aren't the only reasons to play a game. But guess what, this is ONE game, and its virtually the only reason(s) one would play such a game. Thousands of other games with different very compelling reasons asking you to play them.

Asking a lot out of a developer to make two very different games in one title, without having to resort to cutting content or simplifying one of the "game modes". I say that not out of "developer" experience, but out of very common sense "played a lot of games for 20 years" experience and I've never seen it done properly. You run the gamut of butchering your original "hard mode", or you just tack on an "Easy Mode" that no one really asked for, and is very boring. -- Soo few exceptions on the market, and so few games similar in structure to Dark Souls.

 

[Milkman]

I wrote pretty much all my thoughts on a blog no one read.

http://www.ign.com/blogs/themacabremilkman/2013/01/10/fun-for-everyone-2

 

[Master_Fubar23]

It?s not just one game. It?s turning into a series where its story?s depth is amazing. However, trying reading the reset of the posts on this thread to understand how naïve you are. Especially how you stated how they would have to make the game from the ground up for an easy mode. Do you even realize how games are made? That statement was just so silly it was sad to read. A game's difficulty or game play aren't the only reasons to play a game ffs.

Oh really?

Are you going to sit here and tell me in a straight typeface that people play Dark Souls for the interesting story? The art is good, atmosphere is decent, but to only play it for that? Nah.

You and I both know the reason people play Dark Souls. It's for the challenge.

You are also damn right difficulty or gameplay aren't the only reasons to play a game. But guess what, this is ONE game, and its virtually the only reason(s) one would play such a game. Thousands of other games with different very compelling reasons asking you to play them.

Asking a lot out of a developer to make two very different games in one title, without having to resort to cutting content or simplifying one of the "game modes". I say that not out of "developer" experience, but out of very common sense "played a lot of games for 20 years" experience and I've never seen it done properly. You run the gamut of butchering your original "hard mode", or you just tack on an "Easy Mode" that no one really asked for, and is very boring. -- Soo few exceptions on the market, and so few games similar in structure to Dark Souls.

LMAO! Really? Just goes to show how ignorant you truly are. Once you master the game i.e. parrying, rolling, backstabbing, enemy movements, etc. there isn?t any ?challenge? left. How about you go watch EpicNameBros lore videos on YT and educate yourself. Some people don?t like things that are hard but with how much I talked to them about the game they wanted to play it. I didn?t talk about how hard something was to defeat or how many times I died. I only talked about the characters, the different areas, how some NPC?s die or need to be killed. Also, yet again showing how ignorant you are, you speak as if you know how a game is made but simply playing them for 20 years. You really are clueless how games are made. I and several others have stated how the developers can make an easy mode without hurting the original mode so try reading before you try to spread ignorance. Lastly, if you look at the poll there are people who want an easy mode so even if it?s just ?tacked on? people would buy DS2 just for that reason alone which funds the developers.

 

[Master_Fubar23]

I wrote pretty much all my thoughts on a blog no one read.

http://www.ign.com/blogs/themacabremilkman/2013/01/10/fun-for-everyone-2

Thank you milkman for writing a well done article.

 

[Milkman]

I wrote pretty much all my thoughts on a blog no one read.

http://www.ign.com/blogs/themacabremilkman/2013/01/10/fun-for-everyone-2

Thank you milkman for writing a well done article.

Thanks! And for what it's worth, I wasn't going for shameless self-promotion, I'm simply too lazy to rehash the same argument... if that's better.

 

[Master_Fubar23]

I wrote pretty much all my thoughts on a blog no one read.

http://www.ign.com/blogs/themacabremilkman/2013/01/10/fun-for-everyone-2

Thank you milkman for writing a well done article.

Thanks! And for what it's worth, I wasn't going for shameless self-promotion, I'm simply too lazy to rehash the same argument... if that's better.

lol, no problem and I understand