Poll: Dilemma. What will you do to protect yourself?

[JoJo]

The only wise option is for everyone to choose only A.
Of course there will be some dickheads who choose B, but I won't let myself be one of them.

I disagree, the rational option from an individual perspective is to choose B. I'll explain why.

From a group perspective, it makes sense for everyone to pick A, since then everyone will benefit to some extent. For any single individual however it is advantageous to cheat and pick B since if the other person picks A they'll get the benefit of an early escape with no chance of further dilemmas and there's no way for them to be punished for this choice. As humans are not the Borg and generally act in their own self-interest, you would expect a significant number of people to choose B. It therefore is rational to choose the self-interested option B rather than the altruistic option A and risk being screwed over.

Yes, I am aware of how the dilema works.
Whatever the best strategy is depends upon the players in the game.
It depends on what you'd rather assume, that the people in your game are fuckers or that they are good people.
Maybe I have more faith in humanity than I thought I did.
At least I have more faith in myself.

Were I to die, or recieve any reprecussion from choosing only A, at least I would know I did the right thing.

You've backtracked now though, as if the best strategy does depend upon the players then "the only wise option is for everyone to choose only A" is clearly not true. I agree though, if I knew I was being matched up against friends and family then I'd pick A as I'd trust them to do the same. If it was strangers though, I wouldn't personally trust them to cooperate. I only see morality as socially-applied game theory really so I suppose that has some bearing on my answer.

If this were a scenario whereby you stuck with the same person for more than one round, it has been found that against most strategies in at least 2 simulations that I know of, either the tit for tat strategy (whereby you simply perform A until your opponent perfoms B, then do the same back) or the tit for two tat strategie (you do the same, but you pay them back doubly) were the best two.
However in this dilema you only ever face the same opponent once, so you do not get a chance to build a reputation.

Yeah, if it's the iterated prisoners dilemma then it makes sense to cooperate until they defect. Pretty much how morality works.

I see the logic in your moves, I simply cannot share them, I also think, and I apologise for this, that your kind of person is exactly why I think humanity is not worth continuing.

Well that's a strongly worded statement, though it did make me chuckle so thanks for that. I disagree though, humanity is pretty awesome in my opinion and I hope we expand and grow far into the future

Don't you see how when you don't trust someone to cooperate you become the very thing you hate?

I don't hate those who pick B though, all humans act ultimately out of their own self-interest, even those who are altrustic act to increase their own happiness, or for self-perceived glory or future rewards in the after-life.

As you can see by my choices I would not. As a society evolved beyond the days of old, we have the chance to create a conspiracy of A's. If it weren't for people like you.
This is a result of evolution, people who pick only A are likely going to get scourned (and those who share their genes) due to the selfish dicks who pick B, not only do those who pick B against A's increase largely in the population due to the nature of the game, but A's die out entirely, leaving everyone with only 1 limb. Picking only B ends up an evolutionary stable strategy, but when a society of 1 armed, no legged people meet a society of fully limbed people, well you can tell who will win that battle.

Being a product of evolution we are almost doomed to end up being B's, unless a conspiracy of A's form. If you are't a part of the solution you are a part of the problem.

No society would be cheat-proof unless it's people had no free will, and so I'd rather live in society where people have the freedom to be B's, even if that makes the society weaker in some way.

And yes, even those who chose A would be acting in their own self-interest as it would be protecting their perceived moral self-image, or protecting themselves from guilt, or keeping their place in heaven according to their beliefs etc.

I have no need for a moral self image, I don't believe in heaven, or any afterlife.
I do it only because I percieve it to be the only right thing to do.
However I am, in essence, evolutionarily maladaptive in this sense.

Also I would not suggest using the terms free will and freedom interchangably.

So tell me, what is your reason for doing something because it is the "right thing" to do?

A mix of upbringing and genetic predispositions, just like everything else.

Why then I ask would you allow yourself risk being grievously injured for the sake of morality, if it's nothing more than a tradition from upbringing and a genetic urge? Choosing B will benefit yourself and your family and the only thing you'll lose is breaking an arbitrary set of rules.

1. I don't care about my family any more than I care about the average person.
2. I don't care about myself any more than I care about the average person.

I willingly don't take part in evolution.
I may be the product of it, but I will not play its game.
I rebel against evolution using the weapons evolution provided me.

Most moral impulses are the product of evolution, indeed social groups can only exist in the long run with some form of tit-for-tat morality and so it's certainly useful for keeping society in functioning and in order. That doesn't mean that it's in one's self-interest to stick to a society's morality all the time however, I live purely for my own happiness. I do generally help people and am friendly though because it pleases me to do so.

Now we see however why choosing A would be in your self-interest, you see yourself as a rebel against perceived humanity selfishness and so selecting B would break that self-image and with it much of your identity.

I don't rebel against selfishness, I am almost the epitome of selfishness in many other areas. Simply not this one.

It is also true that my identity does mean more to me than my limbs, maybe even my life, however that does not make me selfish, those are both options which do not include others.

By picking A against you, I not only get to keep my idenity, but I get to save both you and your family.
In reality for me it is only a choice of limbs versus identity.

Self-interest doesn't necessarily mean selfish, but yes it can be considered to be in your self-interest to value your identity over your limbs. I myself would sacrifice my life in certain situations, in the defence of young children for example but that would still in my self-interest since I have a strong emotional attachment to them and do not wish to see them harmed, and I also have a self-interested desire to be seen as a glorious hero.

As for your simulation... I'm happy with that result, I only lost a limb and saved my family from any suffering

 

[blazearmoru]

The safest choice is for everyone to choose A. The rest is just obfuscation meant to trick the kind of people who fall for pyramid schemes and waste money gambling or in the lottery. Which is sadly a large percentage of the population.

I'd pick A repeatedly and hope for the best.

I don't see how any of that makes sense...
First of all, it's not the safest choice, it's simply the choice with the best possible outcome as well as the highest risk. A IS the gambling choice. Next choosing A may bring friends and family into this and I'm pretty sure that's how pyramid schemes work... Did you mix up A and B?

To set it straight
A : A = Null, Next Round
A : B = You screwed yourself and your loved one.
B : A = You saved yourself and everyone you care about. (better than A:A)
B : B = You screw yourself a little bit, Next Round. (better than A:B)

 

[Calcium]

Wow, this is a bit of a sadistically dark prisoners' dilemna. I actually wrote a genetic algorithm for the less macabre version of this problem - I believe though the average of the population basically ended up equivalent to random choice though.

 

[Whateveralot]

There is no advantage to pressing button A (sure, there is a hint of potential safety, for now, but if ONE opponent chooses B, you are screwed big time. B will - at worst- only let you lose a single limb.

I will join the many people that spam B, hoping that I will come across a pussy that presses button A and screws himself over bigtime.

Please note that I will take as long as I possibly can before deciding, hoping that a friend or familymember of mine will free me along with himself.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

Hmmm seems like a shitty situation I'm in... AHA!!!!!! I'll shit my pants and smear is all around so that I can slip loose of my bonds!!! FLAWLESS

 

[itsthesheppy]

The thing is, though, that if you choose A, maybe your family and friends get nabbed. Well, all they need to do is press A as well, and then they'll be freed. So I dunno, you get out, send them all texts that say "Press A" or whatever.

The point is if you break it down visually, I think everyone could get the obvious choice really quick.

A + A = Everyone wins, every time!

B + A = Almost everyone wins, other guy gets maimed.

A + B = You get maimed, everyone else wins.

B + B = Both maimed, nobody wins.

B always features people getting maimed. Always. But if everyone chooses A, every time, everyone gets maximum profit. The prisoner's dilemma is not supposed to feature and "everyone wins with maximum profit" scenario, because if it did, the choice would be obvious. As it is here. Only a sociopath or someone who has not thought hard enough about it would ever choose B.

And even if you do get paired with a simpleton, then you're screwed, but hey, everyone else gets freed. So your sacrifice is not in vain.

Unless the OP comes forward with more rule changes to fix his goofy dilemma, I think I went ahead and solved it.

D:< I didn't change the rules. I clarified it once cus someone thought when I said "the game ends" it meant something other than "you are freed"

If everyone is operating under the same rules, then if everyone chooses A every time, nobody gets maimed and everyone eventually goes free. It's a prisoner's dilemma with a "maximum profit" option for all participants, where the only risk is being paired with some kind of moron. So, not really a prisoner's dilemma at all.

I solved your scenario. I'll accept my prize in the form of snack-sized Gardetto's packets, please and thank you.

One only needs to look at the poll to see that while you may have solved the scenario in a rational way, it would not work in reality.
So far almost half are some kind of moron.

Which is unfortunate. But that's life, isn't it? Just because some of us are clever enough to figure out this (rather simple) scenario, so many people are dopey that you run the risk of dying anyway. I've never driven my car intoxicated and never will, but someone else could and crash into me and kill me at almost any time. That's the risk we all take.

Choose A. It's the clear best option. If you get blown up, at least you'll be remembered as a hero by all the people that go free, and the guy who blew you up will have to go on multiple news programs to explain how he was such a moron that he couldn't figure out such a simple an obvious solution.

You're not a monitor. Secondly according to the polls at this very moment, given the numbers are nearly dead even... A's are fucked fucked while Bs have gained immunity for their family and friends while they themselves get to escape. :|

Well, they're either blowing each other's limbs off, or horribly maiming one person to save themselves, rather than thinking. The point is, this scenario has a clear "everyone wins" option, all it proves is that people like this guy:

...I would mash B like there's no tomorrow....

... don't know how to think critically. And this is why so many innocent people every year suffer at the hands of the morons of the world. If only their ineptitude harmed only themselves; but that's not the world we live in.

So congratulations, I guess. You have demonstrated that in any random sampling of humanity, it would appear that about half of them don't know how to think. It's a shame.

Not really... According to the polls, you maimed yourself and risk the maiming of your loved ones. >-> Not sure that's the smartest plan...

Do you even understand the rules of your own game?

If a smart person sits in the chair and realizes, hang on, if everyone chooses A, we all win, every time! So they start pressing A.

Then, unfortunately, they get paired with one of the Missing Links who populate this board (apparently) and get blown the hell up. Everyone else goes free, but they nobly sacrifice themselves.

Either way, the person pressing B either knows, or should know, they they are choose the only option that guarantees harm, and forgoing the only option that can guarantee mutual victory. They're just dummies.

 

[Joccaren]

... don't know how to think critically. And this is why so many innocent people every year suffer at the hands of the morons of the world. If only their ineptitude harmed only themselves; but that's not the world we live in.

So congratulations, I guess. You have demonstrated that in any random sampling of humanity, it would appear that about half of them don't know how to think. It's a shame.

Actually it shows people are paranoid about other people, nothing about critical thinking.
Analyse this from an individual rather than group perspective:

Option A outcomes:
-You are freed from the game with no guarantee that you will not be forced to re-enter, or that your family/friends won't be forced to enter the game.
-You lose all your limbs, are blinded, cast out of the game, and replaced by the person you are closest to.

Option B outcomes:
-You are instantly freed from the game with a guarantee that neither you, your family or your friends will be dragged back into it ever again. Any friends and relatives in the game are released.
-You lose up to three limbs with no guarantee that you won't be bought back [Well, except the likely guarantee from the fact that you don't have three limbs to offer any more], nor that your family or friends won't be bought in.

From a purely personal point of view, B is easily better. Its good options are better, its bad options are better. You protect yourself, your family and your friends, whereas in A you leave all of the above to a gamble. Its like going into a casino and betting your friends lives that you'll win.
Now, in an ideal world where everyone was trustworthy, the obvious choice would be A, simply because everyone would choose A and get out fine, and even if you were bothered, or your friends were bothered, they'd select A and get out free. Thing is, not everyone is trustworthy. Even more so when in shock and not thinking straight because they just woke up with bombs on all their limbs.
As has been said, for your choice of A, you lost all your limbs, your sight, and forced your closest family member/friend into this problem. This isn't because people are morons, its because people know that someone is going to choose B, and they don't want to be the ones who get hurt when that does happen.

Now, personally, I'm not too sure what I'd pick. Were family and friends left out of the problem, I'd choose A the whole way through. I value my life less than that of other people's, and beyond the pain I really wouldn't have any problems with losing all my limbs and my sight. If I decided I couldn't live like that, I'd kill myself and nothing really important would be lost in my eyes.
Bring family and friends into it, however, and I've now got something that I do value in the equation. In this case, I'm not willing to risk my family or friends getting harmed, yet I also don't want to be responsible for harming someone else. As such, I'm pretty much screwed for options, and I have no idea what I would pick. I'd probably pick B in the end simply because it has the highest chance of ensuring my family and friends' safety. I can live with the guilt, and if I can't then... well, see my reasoning for picking A if family and friends were left out of it.

 

[spartan231490]

The thing is, though, that if you choose A, maybe your family and friends get nabbed. Well, all they need to do is press A as well, and then they'll be freed. So I dunno, you get out, send them all texts that say "Press A" or whatever.

The point is if you break it down visually, I think everyone could get the obvious choice really quick.

A + A = Everyone wins, every time!

B + A = Almost everyone wins, other guy gets maimed.

A + B = You get maimed, everyone else wins.

B + B = Both maimed, nobody wins.

B always features people getting maimed. Always. But if everyone chooses A, every time, everyone gets maximum profit. The prisoner's dilemma is not supposed to feature and "everyone wins with maximum profit" scenario, because if it did, the choice would be obvious. As it is here. Only a sociopath or someone who has not thought hard enough about it would ever choose B.

And even if you do get paired with a simpleton, then you're screwed, but hey, everyone else gets freed. So your sacrifice is not in vain.

Unless the OP comes forward with more rule changes to fix his goofy dilemma, I think I went ahead and solved it.

D:< I didn't change the rules. I clarified it once cus someone thought when I said "the game ends" it meant something other than "you are freed"

If everyone is operating under the same rules, then if everyone chooses A every time, nobody gets maimed and everyone eventually goes free. It's a prisoner's dilemma with a "maximum profit" option for all participants, where the only risk is being paired with some kind of moron. So, not really a prisoner's dilemma at all.

I solved your scenario. I'll accept my prize in the form of snack-sized Gardetto's packets, please and thank you.

One only needs to look at the poll to see that while you may have solved the scenario in a rational way, it would not work in reality.
So far almost half are some kind of moron.

Which is unfortunate. But that's life, isn't it? Just because some of us are clever enough to figure out this (rather simple) scenario, so many people are dopey that you run the risk of dying anyway. I've never driven my car intoxicated and never will, but someone else could and crash into me and kill me at almost any time. That's the risk we all take.

Choose A. It's the clear best option. If you get blown up, at least you'll be remembered as a hero by all the people that go free, and the guy who blew you up will have to go on multiple news programs to explain how he was such a moron that he couldn't figure out such a simple an obvious solution.

You're not a monitor. Secondly according to the polls at this very moment, given the numbers are nearly dead even... A's are fucked fucked while Bs have gained immunity for their family and friends while they themselves get to escape. :|

Well, they're either blowing each other's limbs off, or horribly maiming one person to save themselves, rather than thinking. The point is, this scenario has a clear "everyone wins" option, all it proves is that people like this guy:

...I would mash B like there's no tomorrow....

... don't know how to think critically. And this is why so many innocent people every year suffer at the hands of the morons of the world. If only their ineptitude harmed only themselves; but that's not the world we live in.

So congratulations, I guess. You have demonstrated that in any random sampling of humanity, it would appear that about half of them don't know how to think. It's a shame.

I know very well how to think critically, dick. I won't hit A because the risk to me and those I care about is too high. I won't hit A because if some moron hit's B then I lose all my limbs, my sight, and force someone I care about to go through horrible awful sick game. I'm ok with losing a few limbs to protect those I care about from that shit, and I don't really care if some random stranger is stupid enough to hit A and get all his limbs and his sight taken away. Yes, the best solution is if everyone hits A. But I'm not risking someone I care about deeply on the bet that someone won't chicken out and press B. Maybe you would, but that is a lack of critical thinking on your part, not mine. B is the smart choice, because you can't control what the other person will due, and being selfish cowardly creatures, most people aren't going to risk hitting A when the other person could press B.

 

[itsthesheppy]

There is no advantage to pressing button A (sure, there is a hint of potential safety, for now, but if ONE opponent chooses B, you are screwed big time. B will - at worst- only let you lose a single limb.

I will join the many people that spam B, hoping that I will come across a pussy that presses button A and screws himself over bigtime.

Please note that I will take as long as I possibly can before deciding, hoping that a friend or familymember of mine will free me along with himself.

The advantage of pressing A is, assuming everyone in the game has applied any critical thought at all to the situation, it guarantees constant, reliable maximum profit for everyone. The only problem is, as this thread demonstrates, the ability to think critically is basically a coin flip.

 

[Makhiel]

Prisoner's Dilemma (and the rest of Game Theory) is a mathematical model which assumes that people behave rationally. In such case pressing A is the only option, so what that your family will be brought into this? They are rational, they will press A as well.

Why would you presume the other person is a jerk and will press 'B' for the heck of it? I don't get this.

 

[itsthesheppy]

The thing is, though, that if you choose A, maybe your family and friends get nabbed. Well, all they need to do is press A as well, and then they'll be freed. So I dunno, you get out, send them all texts that say "Press A" or whatever.

The point is if you break it down visually, I think everyone could get the obvious choice really quick.

A + A = Everyone wins, every time!

B + A = Almost everyone wins, other guy gets maimed.

A + B = You get maimed, everyone else wins.

B + B = Both maimed, nobody wins.

B always features people getting maimed. Always. But if everyone chooses A, every time, everyone gets maximum profit. The prisoner's dilemma is not supposed to feature and "everyone wins with maximum profit" scenario, because if it did, the choice would be obvious. As it is here. Only a sociopath or someone who has not thought hard enough about it would ever choose B.

And even if you do get paired with a simpleton, then you're screwed, but hey, everyone else gets freed. So your sacrifice is not in vain.

Unless the OP comes forward with more rule changes to fix his goofy dilemma, I think I went ahead and solved it.

D:< I didn't change the rules. I clarified it once cus someone thought when I said "the game ends" it meant something other than "you are freed"

If everyone is operating under the same rules, then if everyone chooses A every time, nobody gets maimed and everyone eventually goes free. It's a prisoner's dilemma with a "maximum profit" option for all participants, where the only risk is being paired with some kind of moron. So, not really a prisoner's dilemma at all.

I solved your scenario. I'll accept my prize in the form of snack-sized Gardetto's packets, please and thank you.

One only needs to look at the poll to see that while you may have solved the scenario in a rational way, it would not work in reality.
So far almost half are some kind of moron.

Which is unfortunate. But that's life, isn't it? Just because some of us are clever enough to figure out this (rather simple) scenario, so many people are dopey that you run the risk of dying anyway. I've never driven my car intoxicated and never will, but someone else could and crash into me and kill me at almost any time. That's the risk we all take.

Choose A. It's the clear best option. If you get blown up, at least you'll be remembered as a hero by all the people that go free, and the guy who blew you up will have to go on multiple news programs to explain how he was such a moron that he couldn't figure out such a simple an obvious solution.

You're not a monitor. Secondly according to the polls at this very moment, given the numbers are nearly dead even... A's are fucked fucked while Bs have gained immunity for their family and friends while they themselves get to escape. :|

Well, they're either blowing each other's limbs off, or horribly maiming one person to save themselves, rather than thinking. The point is, this scenario has a clear "everyone wins" option, all it proves is that people like this guy:

...I would mash B like there's no tomorrow....

... don't know how to think critically. And this is why so many innocent people every year suffer at the hands of the morons of the world. If only their ineptitude harmed only themselves; but that's not the world we live in.

So congratulations, I guess. You have demonstrated that in any random sampling of humanity, it would appear that about half of them don't know how to think. It's a shame.

I know very well how to think critically, dick. I won't hit A because the risk to me and those I care about is too high. I won't hit A because if some moron hit's B then I lose all my limbs, my sight, and force someone I care about to go through horrible awful sick game. I'm ok with losing a few limbs to protect those I care about from that shit, and I don't really care if some random stranger is stupid enough to hit A and get all his limbs and his sight taken away. Yes, the best solution is if everyone hits A. But I'm not risking someone I care about deeply on the bet that someone won't chicken out and press B. Maybe you would, but that is a lack of critical thinking on your part, not mine. B is the smart choice, because you can't control what the other person will due, and being selfish cowardly creatures, most people aren't going to risk hitting A when the other person could press B.

So you're basically counting on someone else choosing the "smart' route, so you can screw them over to save your own life? and you're willing to blow your own limbs off, one buy one, until you get one of those individuals (so you can mutilate them and condemn one of their family members to the game, a contradiction in the rules that just goes to show how poorly thought out this scenario is). That doesn't sound like the smart route to me. Maybe that's because it took me no time at all to figure out the scenario's obvious solution.

Apparently the only flaw in my reasoning is that, as the poll results (and your responses in particular) show, half of a randomly sampled crowd will be populated by selfish morons. So those cavemen will just start blowing each other's limbs off until they find the smart person to screw over to save themselves. In other news, BRAWNDO! It has what plants crave. It has elecrtolytes!

 

[itsthesheppy]

Prisoner's Dilemma (and the rest of Game Theory) is a mathematical model which assumes that people behave rationally. In such case pressing A is the only option, so what that your family will be brought into this? They are rational, they will press A as well.

Why would you presume the other person is a jerk and will press 'B' for the heck of it? I don't get this.

Poll results are certainly showing that you actually stand a chance of being pitted against an idiot who clearly doesn't possess your level of critical thinking skills. Unfortunately for you and I, we stand to risk being sacrificed to this Altar of Stupidity by selfish dopes who just don't get how the game works.

 

[spartan231490]

The thing is, though, that if you choose A, maybe your family and friends get nabbed. Well, all they need to do is press A as well, and then they'll be freed. So I dunno, you get out, send them all texts that say "Press A" or whatever.

The point is if you break it down visually, I think everyone could get the obvious choice really quick.

A + A = Everyone wins, every time!

B + A = Almost everyone wins, other guy gets maimed.

A + B = You get maimed, everyone else wins.

B + B = Both maimed, nobody wins.

B always features people getting maimed. Always. But if everyone chooses A, every time, everyone gets maximum profit. The prisoner's dilemma is not supposed to feature and "everyone wins with maximum profit" scenario, because if it did, the choice would be obvious. As it is here. Only a sociopath or someone who has not thought hard enough about it would ever choose B.

And even if you do get paired with a simpleton, then you're screwed, but hey, everyone else gets freed. So your sacrifice is not in vain.

Unless the OP comes forward with more rule changes to fix his goofy dilemma, I think I went ahead and solved it.

D:< I didn't change the rules. I clarified it once cus someone thought when I said "the game ends" it meant something other than "you are freed"

If everyone is operating under the same rules, then if everyone chooses A every time, nobody gets maimed and everyone eventually goes free. It's a prisoner's dilemma with a "maximum profit" option for all participants, where the only risk is being paired with some kind of moron. So, not really a prisoner's dilemma at all.

I solved your scenario. I'll accept my prize in the form of snack-sized Gardetto's packets, please and thank you.

One only needs to look at the poll to see that while you may have solved the scenario in a rational way, it would not work in reality.
So far almost half are some kind of moron.

Which is unfortunate. But that's life, isn't it? Just because some of us are clever enough to figure out this (rather simple) scenario, so many people are dopey that you run the risk of dying anyway. I've never driven my car intoxicated and never will, but someone else could and crash into me and kill me at almost any time. That's the risk we all take.

Choose A. It's the clear best option. If you get blown up, at least you'll be remembered as a hero by all the people that go free, and the guy who blew you up will have to go on multiple news programs to explain how he was such a moron that he couldn't figure out such a simple an obvious solution.

You're not a monitor. Secondly according to the polls at this very moment, given the numbers are nearly dead even... A's are fucked fucked while Bs have gained immunity for their family and friends while they themselves get to escape. :|

Well, they're either blowing each other's limbs off, or horribly maiming one person to save themselves, rather than thinking. The point is, this scenario has a clear "everyone wins" option, all it proves is that people like this guy:

...I would mash B like there's no tomorrow....

... don't know how to think critically. And this is why so many innocent people every year suffer at the hands of the morons of the world. If only their ineptitude harmed only themselves; but that's not the world we live in.

So congratulations, I guess. You have demonstrated that in any random sampling of humanity, it would appear that about half of them don't know how to think. It's a shame.

I know very well how to think critically, dick. I won't hit A because the risk to me and those I care about is too high. I won't hit A because if some moron hit's B then I lose all my limbs, my sight, and force someone I care about to go through horrible awful sick game. I'm ok with losing a few limbs to protect those I care about from that shit, and I don't really care if some random stranger is stupid enough to hit A and get all his limbs and his sight taken away. Yes, the best solution is if everyone hits A. But I'm not risking someone I care about deeply on the bet that someone won't chicken out and press B. Maybe you would, but that is a lack of critical thinking on your part, not mine. B is the smart choice, because you can't control what the other person will due, and being selfish cowardly creatures, most people aren't going to risk hitting A when the other person could press B.

So you're basically counting on someone else choosing the "smart' route, so you can screw them over to save your own life? and you're willing to blow your own limbs off, one buy one, until you get one of those individuals (so you can mutilate them and condemn one of their family members to the game, a contradiction in the rules that just goes to show how poorly thought out this scenario is). That doesn't sound like the smart route to me. Maybe that's because it took me no time at all to figure out the scenario's obvious solution.

Apparently the only flaw in my reasoning is that, as the poll results (and your responses in particular) show, half of a randomly sampled crowd will be populated by selfish morons. So those cavemen will just start blowing each other's limbs off until they find the smart person to screw over to save themselves. In other news, BRAWNDO! It has what plants crave. It has elecrtolytes!

I think the smart choice is B, so I'm counting on losing 3 limbs. If someone hits A and wins me my freedom and the freedom of my friends and family, I won't complain. What on earth do you mean contradiction. Also, I'm not the one blowing their limbs off and condoning anyone, I didn't make the game, but if put in it I will play to save myself and my friends. No, the smart choice is B, just because you believe we live in a world populated by idiots who would risk losing everything and putting a loved one in grave peril, doesn't mean that we're the idiots because we see the world clearly.

 

[JoJo]

It's an interesting observation that a torrent of abuse has been coming from the A side, who have castigated B's as "dick heads", "morons", "idiots", "assholes", "cavemen", "Missing Links", or unable to think critically or are even what's wrong with humanity. On the other hand from the B side has been almost perfectly calm, with at the most one heated reply after repeated insults from an A.

A telling example of which side is truly in the right, perhaps?

 

[spartan231490]

The thing is, though, that if you choose A, maybe your family and friends get nabbed. Well, all they need to do is press A as well, and then they'll be freed. So I dunno, you get out, send them all texts that say "Press A" or whatever.

The point is if you break it down visually, I think everyone could get the obvious choice really quick.

A + A = Everyone wins, every time!

B + A = Almost everyone wins, other guy gets maimed.

A + B = You get maimed, everyone else wins.

B + B = Both maimed, nobody wins.

B always features people getting maimed. Always. But if everyone chooses A, every time, everyone gets maximum profit. The prisoner's dilemma is not supposed to feature and "everyone wins with maximum profit" scenario, because if it did, the choice would be obvious. As it is here. Only a sociopath or someone who has not thought hard enough about it would ever choose B.

And even if you do get paired with a simpleton, then you're screwed, but hey, everyone else gets freed. So your sacrifice is not in vain.

Unless the OP comes forward with more rule changes to fix his goofy dilemma, I think I went ahead and solved it.

D:< I didn't change the rules. I clarified it once cus someone thought when I said "the game ends" it meant something other than "you are freed"

If everyone is operating under the same rules, then if everyone chooses A every time, nobody gets maimed and everyone eventually goes free. It's a prisoner's dilemma with a "maximum profit" option for all participants, where the only risk is being paired with some kind of moron. So, not really a prisoner's dilemma at all.

I solved your scenario. I'll accept my prize in the form of snack-sized Gardetto's packets, please and thank you.

One only needs to look at the poll to see that while you may have solved the scenario in a rational way, it would not work in reality.
So far almost half are some kind of moron.

Which is unfortunate. But that's life, isn't it? Just because some of us are clever enough to figure out this (rather simple) scenario, so many people are dopey that you run the risk of dying anyway. I've never driven my car intoxicated and never will, but someone else could and crash into me and kill me at almost any time. That's the risk we all take.

Choose A. It's the clear best option. If you get blown up, at least you'll be remembered as a hero by all the people that go free, and the guy who blew you up will have to go on multiple news programs to explain how he was such a moron that he couldn't figure out such a simple an obvious solution.

You're not a monitor. Secondly according to the polls at this very moment, given the numbers are nearly dead even... A's are fucked fucked while Bs have gained immunity for their family and friends while they themselves get to escape. :|

Well, they're either blowing each other's limbs off, or horribly maiming one person to save themselves, rather than thinking. The point is, this scenario has a clear "everyone wins" option, all it proves is that people like this guy:

...I would mash B like there's no tomorrow....

... don't know how to think critically. And this is why so many innocent people every year suffer at the hands of the morons of the world. If only their ineptitude harmed only themselves; but that's not the world we live in.

So congratulations, I guess. You have demonstrated that in any random sampling of humanity, it would appear that about half of them don't know how to think. It's a shame.

I know very well how to think critically, dick. I won't hit A because the risk to me and those I care about is too high. I won't hit A because if some moron hit's B then I lose all my limbs, my sight, and force someone I care about to go through horrible awful sick game. I'm ok with losing a few limbs to protect those I care about from that shit, and I don't really care if some random stranger is stupid enough to hit A and get all his limbs and his sight taken away. Yes, the best solution is if everyone hits A. But I'm not risking someone I care about deeply on the bet that someone won't chicken out and press B. Maybe you would, but that is a lack of critical thinking on your part, not mine. B is the smart choice, because you can't control what the other person will due, and being selfish cowardly creatures, most people aren't going to risk hitting A when the other person could press B.

So you're basically counting on someone else choosing the "smart' route, so you can screw them over to save your own life? and you're willing to blow your own limbs off, one buy one, until you get one of those individuals (so you can mutilate them and condemn one of their family members to the game, a contradiction in the rules that just goes to show how poorly thought out this scenario is). That doesn't sound like the smart route to me. Maybe that's because it took me no time at all to figure out the scenario's obvious solution.

Apparently the only flaw in my reasoning is that, as the poll results (and your responses in particular) show, half of a randomly sampled crowd will be populated by selfish morons. So those cavemen will just start blowing each other's limbs off until they find the smart person to screw over to save themselves. In other news, BRAWNDO! It has what plants crave. It has elecrtolytes!

Further, both sides choosing A isn't necessarily the best answer. It's the best for the two parties, but it doesn't guarantee the safety of your loved ones, which to me is a loftier goal than escaping with all my limbs intact.

 

[blazearmoru]

The thing is, though, that if you choose A, maybe your family and friends get nabbed. Well, all they need to do is press A as well, and then they'll be freed. So I dunno, you get out, send them all texts that say "Press A" or whatever.

The point is if you break it down visually, I think everyone could get the obvious choice really quick.

A + A = Everyone wins, every time!

B + A = Almost everyone wins, other guy gets maimed.

A + B = You get maimed, everyone else wins.

B + B = Both maimed, nobody wins.

B always features people getting maimed. Always. But if everyone chooses A, every time, everyone gets maximum profit. The prisoner's dilemma is not supposed to feature and "everyone wins with maximum profit" scenario, because if it did, the choice would be obvious. As it is here. Only a sociopath or someone who has not thought hard enough about it would ever choose B.

And even if you do get paired with a simpleton, then you're screwed, but hey, everyone else gets freed. So your sacrifice is not in vain.

Unless the OP comes forward with more rule changes to fix his goofy dilemma, I think I went ahead and solved it.

D:< I didn't change the rules. I clarified it once cus someone thought when I said "the game ends" it meant something other than "you are freed"

If everyone is operating under the same rules, then if everyone chooses A every time, nobody gets maimed and everyone eventually goes free. It's a prisoner's dilemma with a "maximum profit" option for all participants, where the only risk is being paired with some kind of moron. So, not really a prisoner's dilemma at all.

I solved your scenario. I'll accept my prize in the form of snack-sized Gardetto's packets, please and thank you.

One only needs to look at the poll to see that while you may have solved the scenario in a rational way, it would not work in reality.
So far almost half are some kind of moron.

Which is unfortunate. But that's life, isn't it? Just because some of us are clever enough to figure out this (rather simple) scenario, so many people are dopey that you run the risk of dying anyway. I've never driven my car intoxicated and never will, but someone else could and crash into me and kill me at almost any time. That's the risk we all take.

Choose A. It's the clear best option. If you get blown up, at least you'll be remembered as a hero by all the people that go free, and the guy who blew you up will have to go on multiple news programs to explain how he was such a moron that he couldn't figure out such a simple an obvious solution.

You're not a monitor. Secondly according to the polls at this very moment, given the numbers are nearly dead even... A's are fucked fucked while Bs have gained immunity for their family and friends while they themselves get to escape. :|

Well, they're either blowing each other's limbs off, or horribly maiming one person to save themselves, rather than thinking. The point is, this scenario has a clear "everyone wins" option, all it proves is that people like this guy:

...I would mash B like there's no tomorrow....

... don't know how to think critically. And this is why so many innocent people every year suffer at the hands of the morons of the world. If only their ineptitude harmed only themselves; but that's not the world we live in.

So congratulations, I guess. You have demonstrated that in any random sampling of humanity, it would appear that about half of them don't know how to think. It's a shame.

I know very well how to think critically, dick. I won't hit A because the risk to me and those I care about is too high. I won't hit A because if some moron hit's B then I lose all my limbs, my sight, and force someone I care about to go through horrible awful sick game. I'm ok with losing a few limbs to protect those I care about from that shit, and I don't really care if some random stranger is stupid enough to hit A and get all his limbs and his sight taken away. Yes, the best solution is if everyone hits A. But I'm not risking someone I care about deeply on the bet that someone won't chicken out and press B. Maybe you would, but that is a lack of critical thinking on your part, not mine. B is the smart choice, because you can't control what the other person will due, and being selfish cowardly creatures, most people aren't going to risk hitting A when the other person could press B.

So you're basically counting on someone else choosing the "smart' route, so you can screw them over to save your own life? and you're willing to blow your own limbs off, one buy one, until you get one of those individuals (so you can mutilate them and condemn one of their family members to the game, a contradiction in the rules that just goes to show how poorly thought out this scenario is). That doesn't sound like the smart route to me. Maybe that's because it took me no time at all to figure out the scenario's obvious solution.

Apparently the only flaw in my reasoning is that, as the poll results (and your responses in particular) show, half of a randomly sampled crowd will be populated by selfish morons. So those cavemen will just start blowing each other's limbs off until they find the smart person to screw over to save themselves. In other news, BRAWNDO! It has what plants crave. It has elecrtolytes!

I'm still a little confused on why martyring your friends and family to B is the smart route... Isn't that the dumb route? Also this has nothing to do with intellect and everything to do with values. You're not that smart to be honest if you're unable to understand this problem from another's point of view, I mean we all see the *on paper in a forum* point of view that you're trying to point out. In fact that kinda shows exactly how immature you are to be unable to relate to the situation if you can't tell that everyone's sitting behind a computer screen reading this from an "on paper in a forum" perspective. I'm totally not trying to be condescending and I'm sorry if I came across that way this post.

 

[barbzilla]

so far 2 assholes and 4 selfish morons

There. I fixed it for you.

Just because I'm not dumb enough to risk dragging my loved ones into this doesn't make me an asshole. Also, anyone picking A has just seen how many pick B so logically from here on out, you should all pick B. We may all get screwed over while playing the game, but we're not dragging others into it. Choosing A is playing Russian Roulette with your loved ones.

Also, what is with all the Saw-like games these days. Especially some of the ones with arbitrary rules?

Edit: it was my reading comprehension issue, not yours. I apologize. I still stand by my statement that neither choice makes you an asshole. When someone's life is on the line, they are allowed to pick what they feel is the best scenario for them. I think Fool needs to re-evaluate his evaluation of people in stressful situations.

 

[itsthesheppy]

It's an interesting observation that a torrent of abuse has been coming from the A side, who have castigated B's as "dick heads", "morons", "idiots", "assholes", "cavemen", "Missing Links", or unable to think critically or are even what's wrong with humanity. On the other hand from the B side has been almost perfectly calm, with at the most one heated reply after repeated insults from an A.

A telling example of which side is truly in the right, perhaps?

The "torrent of abuse" from the "A side" is basically me. I'm the one calling the B side idiots because I'm confident in doing so. As my good friend SpartanNUMBERS has demonstrated, there are apparently a large portion of the population who will go into a situation that has a clear option that guarantees victory for everyone if only everyone applies a little thought to the scenario and will instead sacrifice their own limbs in an attempt to find one of those reasonable people so they can fuck them over to the maximum degree to save themselves, and call themselves top thinkers for going for it. Even when it can be clearly demonstrated to them that if only everyone chooses A, then everyone gets off scott free.

So yeah. Having the options clear in front of you: One option that can solidify victory for everyone with maximum profit, or one option that guarantees harm every time it's chosen, and choosing the latter makes that individual a knuckle-dragging moron. The argument of "well, other dumb people are gonna screw it up, so I need to join them to save myself!" only demonstrates why it seems today that intellectual discourse is a race to the bottom.

If you start juggling hammers in a china shop, screw up, and break some china, and I come out and yell at you for being a dummy, it doesn't make what you did the right thing just because I'm insulting your intelligence. Similarly, it doesn't make the A choice any less completely correct and sensible because I'm disparaging the selfish morons for being selfish morons in choosing B.

As I've said before, it's entirely possible that on my way home from work today, I could be hit and killed by a drunk driver. It doesn't matter how responsibly I drive; some ignoramus can still switch me off with his stupid caveman antics. That doesn't make him right, that I'm calling him an idiot. It also doesn't mean I should drive like I'm in Mad Max to save myself at all costs to anyone else around me. It's just a demonstration that we all live in a world populated by idiots who can and will screw you over with their idiocy, and that much has been artfully revealed in this goofy, poorly-thought-out "prisoner's dilemma" that is in fact no such thing.

I have now said everything I can on the subject; it's getting boring. You kids have fun. I'm going to relish in my intellectual triumph of having easily figured out what is apparently a deeply challenging question for some.

 

[blazearmoru]

It's an interesting observation that a torrent of abuse has been coming from the A side, who have castigated B's as "dick heads", "morons", "idiots", "assholes", "cavemen", "Missing Links", or unable to think critically or are even what's wrong with humanity. On the other hand from the B side has been almost perfectly calm, with at the most one heated reply after repeated insults from an A.

A telling example of which side is truly in the right, perhaps?

It's a bit counter intuitive but I actually put the family thing there for a reason. That's probably why some of the A side is so hostile. Edit : Removed the rest so other's can't read it! :<

 

[SlaveNumber23]

It's an interesting observation that a torrent of abuse has been coming from the A side, who have castigated B's as "dick heads", "morons", "idiots", "assholes", "cavemen", "Missing Links", or unable to think critically or are even what's wrong with humanity. On the other hand from the B side has been almost perfectly calm, with at the most one heated reply after repeated insults from an A.

A telling example of which side is truly in the right, perhaps?

Agree with you, in a perfect world maybe everyone would choose A and everything would be happy and rainbows and flowers would be everywhere but lets face it this isn't a perfect world and everyone choosing A simply isn't going to happen. So I'm going B all the way, I'm not going to pretend I'm not selfish.

Its pretty disappointing that what was quite an interesting original post has ignited such 'saints' to sling uncalled for and senseless insults from their supposed moral high ground, can't have a reasonable discussion without them throwing shit.