Poll: Do you guys actually enjoy the dumbing down of games ?

[Fappy]

In ME 2's case, I don't think the system was perfect but it was certainty better than the convoluted and tedious inventory system its predecessor suffered from. One dumbing down I always felt sad about was the transition from Morrowind to Oblivion... the world lost so much individuality between games. Only part of Oblivion that felt anything like Morrowind was Shivering Isles.

 

[DaedalusIcarus]

I still maintain that ME2 is dumbed down in every respect. I died about 5 times in total playing that game and in general everything was p*ss easy whereas ME1 actually gave me a hard time until I bothered with inventory management, procurement of weaponry, party customization etc.

For argument's sake we can assume that I just magically did everything right the first time around, but that's either one hell of a lucky guess (all the way through, mind you) or it's indicative of a game which doesn't really punish you for picking the wrong choices.

Anyway, that said, ME has always been mostly about story, so I'm not wholly unappreciative about the steps taken to help tell it. Still, it's a brilliant example of how a cinematic experience is preferred to a rich and deep gameplay in most modern games.

But even if you insist on that being the reason, I could ask what the point of the resource-harvesting "game" is then. It's tedious, time-consuming, mind-numbing and practically impossible to do wrong - is this not a more obvious candidate for removal than the inventory system was ? At least that actually *mattered*.

And yes, I enjoy managing things and having to actually *think* about how things should be put together. I guess it's why I'd prefer Eve to WoW, why the best RTS's in my view have been Starcraft, Stronghold, Company of Heroes and Sudden Strike 2.

But looking away from ME. We can look at how it's effectively impossible to fail in Bioshock given the infite-respawn-with-no-side-effects that is the vita chambers spread around Rapture. Death is, at most, an inconvenience.

 

[Plurralbles]

sometimes they add better underlining mechanics that end up making the game easier, yes, but also it's just making it less tedious, but still only someone who really cares will get the most out of the game.

 

[kawaiiamethist]

ME2 hasn't be dumbed down, its been jacked up thanks to one alteration. I can get through ME because I don't have to worry about ammo stocks. That makes it very accessible for role players who don't play shooters. However, in ME2 you have to contend with ammo stocks, freaking out those non-shooter types.

 

[Twad]

Depends, there is a fine line between make things more steamlined (taking out unneeded stuff, fixing the user interface, fix stuff that didnt work right) and cutting in it so deep only the "NEW ULTRA SHINY WITH 'SPLOSIONS" bones remain.

But at the same time, too many options is as bad as not enough. Gotta find what works with the time/money/need they have.

 

[Weaver]

Bioware can go to hell, I like complicated inventory systems. This also leads to a lack of customization with your characters, there were tons of armors and weapons in ME1 but ME2 just got rid of them all. No one god damn complained because evidently everyone is happy with just shooting things. To me half the draw of RPG games is the loot and decking my guys out with shiny stuff.

Am I the only person who hated this? What the fuck is wrong with everyone?

See this?

THIS is my kind of game. Deep, rewarding and motherfucking complicated. Once you master the rules of the game you're in heaven and it's a challenge getting there.

 

[Crimsane]

ME1's inventory was a pain in the ass to micromanage. "Your inventory is nearing the 150 item limit." Sigh. /omni-gels a few items even though I've got 999, because I'm in the middle of a mission and no stores are around. I'm glad ME2 removed it, because it was more hassle than it was worth.

If players find an element of a game tedious, removing that element is a more than welcome change. It makes the game more fun, which is what games are all about. Call that dumbing-down if you will, I call it improving the experience overall.

This thread feels like a conversation with that one journalist on the Citadel, the one with an obvious agenda. Only here, there's no punch option.

 

[Gladion]

@topic: All you do is claim things. It was wise to have a varied army in C&C1, but not in C&C3? Why? I didn't feel that way - more like the exact other way around.

Then you don't even know there's many more classes in Dragon Age, I know that and haven't even played the game, merely read one review. You even state you don't know, you just assume. Bad argument.

You keep talking about "dumbing down, dumbing down", while all your points are about accessibility, which seems to be a bad thing for you, or difficulty.
Besides, if you did everything right the first time in ME2, it was probably more because you got better at it, having played through the original, not because of magic.

Edit: Your awfully biased writing and poll don't make you look any more intelligent than those loving "dumbed-down" games, that's for sure.

Spoiler

Bioware can go to hell, I like complicated inventory systems. This also leads to a lack of customization with your characters, there were tons of armors and weapons in ME1 but ME2 just got rid of them all. No one god damn complained because evidently everyone is happy with just shooting things. To me half the draw of RPG games is the loot and decking my guys out with shiny stuff.

Am I the only person who hated this? What the fuck is wrong with everyone?

See this?

THIS is my kind of game. Deep, rewarding and motherfucking complicated. Once you master the rules of the game you're in heaven and it's a challenge getting there.

You don't seem to get along with the fact many people find the things you like boring. The real challenge is getting over that first. Then realize there are games made for people like you. Finally, find those games. They are not directly jammed into your face like Halo or something other mainstream, so you'll have to put some effort.
Or get another hobby altogether. I noticed that with many gamers who game for most of their life (like me). Many seem to be bored and unchallenged by today's software. I always tell those people it's because they played too many games and seen everything already. Get another hobby, let gaming grow a few years and then pick up the stuff you missed on.

 

[Eicha]

Hate it. Make games impossible again, they're more fun like that ;D

 

[Hiphophippo]

using the phrase "dumbing down" is just loaded language. If developers feel the need to trim pointless fat from their game to make a better sequel then good. This would be like in ME2. The inventory might have been removed for 2 but it was completely uneeded and pointless in the first one. It only served as a tedium because all I ever did was grind shit into omnigel.

You might, but I don't get off on knowing the game I'm playing is super complex. All I ask of it is to be fun and stimulating. I'm willing to side with the developers here provided I get what I ask.

 

[phar]

Ok im for it and against it.

For simplifying inventory systems and making the game much easier to manage and play, of course im all for simplifying. For cutting out extra things such as lean in Call of Duty or putting in Auto Aim, regenerating health, P2P, checkpoints every 30 seconds and things like that im really against.

 

[Weaver]

Spoiler

Bioware can go to hell, I like complicated inventory systems. This also leads to a lack of customization with your characters, there were tons of armors and weapons in ME1 but ME2 just got rid of them all. No one god damn complained because evidently everyone is happy with just shooting things. To me half the draw of RPG games is the loot and decking my guys out with shiny stuff.

Am I the only person who hated this? What the fuck is wrong with everyone?

See this?

THIS is my kind of game. Deep, rewarding and motherfucking complicated. Once you master the rules of the game you're in heaven and it's a challenge getting there.

You don't seem to get along with the fact many people find the things you like boring. The real challenge is getting over that first. Then realize there are games made for people like you. Finally, find those games. They are not directly jammed into your face like Halo or something other mainstream, so you'll have to put some effort.
Or get another hobby altogether. I noticed that with many gamers who game for most of their life (like me). Many seem to be bored and unchallenged by today's software. I always tell those people it's because they played too many games and seen everything already. Get another hobby, let gaming grow a few years and then pick up the stuff you missed on.

Oh, I realize most people find it boring, but I suppose that's why I hate most people. The masses are scared of actually having to use their head, even slightly. I also don't live in the "normal world". I live in a university town and I'm in the department of mathematics, I'm surrounded by intellects and academics every day and very much enjoy strenuous mental tasks.

I also have other hobbies; I play guitar, I'm a DJ, I enjoy modeling and painting as well as cooking and reading. What bothers me is that games weren't always so in your face stupid. X-Com was a very popular PC title back in the day and it was very complicated. I feel like as gaming grew popular the influx of people afraid of complicated designs changed things for the worse.

So yes, I guess I'm an jaded elitist. But I'm the one who spent my life in social reclusion. I was the one who was ostracized by my peers for being intelligent, as my family was too poor to send me to a private school and I found solace in the strange and niche world of gaming that seemed to jive with me. Now the very people who I spent my whole life apart from decide they're going to take my one escape and turn it into another commercial bullshit fest with a flagrant disregard for the past.

I realize this isn't a very... "nice" post, but these are my feelings. I also want to note I have nothing against yourself and this post isn't really directed towards YOU but just to vent I suppose.

 

[Rangergord]

I think the problem is that we buy a single thoughtful game that takes hours to complete, but in the meantime buy 3 or 4 shovelware games in the same time period. The devolpers simply assume more sales = more demand, thus we want just shovelware games and not longer better games. Or simply speaking, there are certain "professional" believe pretty = quality under any circumstance. Taking ME2 and "dumbing" it down is just part of the trend.
Or maybe its all just like TV switching to mainly shovelware reality TV. A quicker and easier way to make a good profit margin from people who just want to shut down after a long day. American Idol the game...Oh wait...been there done that. Damn.
The future of a well told original story may just fade to a few select titles, while everything else is vanella. The true storytellers may just retreat to their last strong hold were it all started: the written word, the book. Everything else, use a shovel.

 

[The Heik]

Lately I've seen a lot of positive reviews of and opinions on Mass Effect 2. To me it's just the last step in a trend which I've seen, and hated for a long time.
In order to make the game more 'accessible' and 'streamlined' the inventory management of Mass Effect 1 where you had to manage weapons and armor across teammates have been ripped out of the game entirely.

A similar example was the butchering of the Deus Ex franchise with Deus Ex 2 where lock picks and multi tools were combined into a single tool, all ammo types being discarded in favour of a uniform ammo resource and the skill system was done away with entirely.
( Ok, you can claim there's a minimal amount of management in the form of armor customization, but I completed the game just fine without *ever* concerning myself with this. I never even bought anything from a vendor, meaning it's reduced to a useless gimmick)

Similarly, one can look at Dragon's age which reduced the complex class-based systems seen in previous fantasy games from Bioware with 3 classes (was it ? I simply stopped playing this game before I was 10% done with the story).
This seemed even more simplistic than the original class system of the KOTOR series which also used a custom non-D&D set of rules.

It can also be seen in games such as the first Command & Conquer game versus C&C 3. In C&C 1 it made sense to combine different unit types to get a good well-rounded army whereas it's perfectly possible to steamroll people in C&C 3 using an army of Mammoth or scorpion tanks.

This, of course is seems even more shallow and awful when held up against the original Starcraft game in which there seems to be a counter to almost every unit and general strategy.


Sure, there are some counter-examples to offer such as CoD 1 to CoD 4 where perks and weapon upgrades have introduces a level of customization which was non-existent before. But to me it seems a pretty general trend that games get dumbed down nonetheless.

So, my question is, am I the only person who gets put off by this push towards "cinematic" experiences at the cost of core gameplay mechanics being dumbed down ?

I'm really getting sick of this "dumbed-down" idea in gaming. Just because a system is streamlined, does not mean that it's dumbed-down.

In case of ME2: before the change in order to be ready for combat I had to individually check the armor and weapons of each of your six team-mates, buy new upgrades, and generally do what people do in a RPG. This meant that I spent roughly 10-15 minutes of every hour AWAY from the combat of the game, doing things akin to a desk job. That is not the point of a game. If I wanted to do logistics, I'd work at UPS. And if I didn't do that? Well then the game would go from fun to impossible.

In ME2, they made the upgrades simple and easy to use, which meant that I could spend more time ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. You still require skill to win, it's now just easier to get your squad to do what you want, and you don't have to spend hours in total making sure that they have the absolutely positively best gear.

 

[Mcupobob]

It is important for game devs to go mainstream if the still want to be a game company, what I think they should do and what I was planning on doing if I ever get my game idea of the ground is to make a duel campain to go follow through the intire series. One that is comlicated and unique with intresting charaters who vary and incredibly A.I form both sides, and another campain with easly relatable charaters with intersting but no too unfriendly game mechanics for the masses.

EDIT: I'm a story buff when it comes to games, I also like intersting and new gamplay mechanics that take time to master.

 

[Assassin Xaero]

I could care less as long as it's fun. I'll admit, I'm pretty crappy at games, especially sport games, so a lot of the time I'll never survive on hard. Was playing Dragon Age on medium and knocked it down to easy for a few parts since I was getting stuck, and I just left it there. Sure, it isn't a challenge anymore, but I could care less about that. I would rather annihilate everything then have to try and get past the same part 50 times.

On the other hand, when I was replaying through Tony Hawk's Underground, I put it on the hardest difficulty, since I'm pretty good at the game, because it was no fun on easy. On easy, I could literally get all my stats to the max cap limit in 1 combo.

 

[Jark212]

I prefer the term "more user friendly"...

 

[fun-with-a-gun]

I have to ask... If it was so easy, which difficulty was it on?

I find that "dumbing down" as in making things easier is a plague and should be avoided like one. Multiple difficulty levels were created so that the masses could enjoy the same game.

"dumbing down" as in simplicity is good with the right gametype. I don't want my MW2 customizer to look like a spreadsheet, but when I play RPGs I want a complicated inventory/customization page.