Poll: Do you guys actually enjoy the dumbing down of games ?

[The Heik]

Lately I've seen a lot of positive reviews of and opinions on Mass Effect 2. To me it's just the last step in a trend which I've seen, and hated for a long time.
In order to make the game more 'accessible' and 'streamlined' the inventory management of Mass Effect 1 where you had to manage weapons and armor across teammates have been ripped out of the game entirely.

A similar example was the butchering of the Deus Ex franchise with Deus Ex 2 where lock picks and multi tools were combined into a single tool, all ammo types being discarded in favour of a uniform ammo resource and the skill system was done away with entirely.
( Ok, you can claim there's a minimal amount of management in the form of armor customization, but I completed the game just fine without *ever* concerning myself with this. I never even bought anything from a vendor, meaning it's reduced to a useless gimmick)

Similarly, one can look at Dragon's age which reduced the complex class-based systems seen in previous fantasy games from Bioware with 3 classes (was it ? I simply stopped playing this game before I was 10% done with the story).
This seemed even more simplistic than the original class system of the KOTOR series which also used a custom non-D&D set of rules.

It can also be seen in games such as the first Command & Conquer game versus C&C 3. In C&C 1 it made sense to combine different unit types to get a good well-rounded army whereas it's perfectly possible to steamroll people in C&C 3 using an army of Mammoth or scorpion tanks.

This, of course is seems even more shallow and awful when held up against the original Starcraft game in which there seems to be a counter to almost every unit and general strategy.


Sure, there are some counter-examples to offer such as CoD 1 to CoD 4 where perks and weapon upgrades have introduces a level of customization which was non-existent before. But to me it seems a pretty general trend that games get dumbed down nonetheless.

So, my question is, am I the only person who gets put off by this push towards "cinematic" experiences at the cost of core gameplay mechanics being dumbed down ?

I'm really getting sick of this "dumbed-down" idea in gaming. Just because a system is streamlined, does not mean that it's dumbed-down.

In case of ME1: before the change in order to be ready for combat I had to individually check the armor and weapons of each of my six team-mates, buy new upgrades, and generally do what people do in a RPG. This meant that I spent roughly 10-15 minutes of every hour AWAY from the combat of the game, doing things akin to a desk job. That is not the point of a game. If I wanted to do logistics, I'd work at UPS. And if I didn't do that? Well then the game would go from fun to impossible.

In ME2, they made the upgrades simple and easy to use, which meant that I could spend more time ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. You still require skill to win, it's now just easier to get your squad to do what you want, and you don't have to spend hours in total making sure that they have the absolutely positively best gear.

this. there is a massive difference between dumbing down and making a game smooth

just because the game is more streamlined now doesn't mean you need to throw a pissy elitist fit, big deal, play all your old games then if your in so desperate need for a "challenge" or, i'd recommend demon souls, as its one of the more challenging and complicated games i have played as of late

Wait, what is your point here? You lost me at "throwing a pissy elitist fit". You really need to express yourself more clearly if you want to be understood.

BTW "this" all on it's own makes no sense without some freaking context.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Lately I've seen a lot of positive reviews of and opinions on Mass Effect 2. To me it's just the last step in a trend which I've seen, and hated for a long time.
In order to make the game more 'accessible' and 'streamlined' the inventory management of Mass Effect 1 where you had to manage weapons and armor across teammates have been ripped out of the game entirely.

A similar example was the butchering of the Deus Ex franchise with Deus Ex 2 where lock picks and multi tools were combined into a single tool, all ammo types being discarded in favour of a uniform ammo resource and the skill system was done away with entirely.
( Ok, you can claim there's a minimal amount of management in the form of armor customization, but I completed the game just fine without *ever* concerning myself with this. I never even bought anything from a vendor, meaning it's reduced to a useless gimmick)

Similarly, one can look at Dragon's age which reduced the complex class-based systems seen in previous fantasy games from Bioware with 3 classes (was it ? I simply stopped playing this game before I was 10% done with the story).
This seemed even more simplistic than the original class system of the KOTOR series which also used a custom non-D&D set of rules.

It can also be seen in games such as the first Command & Conquer game versus C&C 3. In C&C 1 it made sense to combine different unit types to get a good well-rounded army whereas it's perfectly possible to steamroll people in C&C 3 using an army of Mammoth or scorpion tanks.

This, of course is seems even more shallow and awful when held up against the original Starcraft game in which there seems to be a counter to almost every unit and general strategy.


Sure, there are some counter-examples to offer such as CoD 1 to CoD 4 where perks and weapon upgrades have introduces a level of customization which was non-existent before. But to me it seems a pretty general trend that games get dumbed down nonetheless.

So, my question is, am I the only person who gets put off by this push towards "cinematic" experiences at the cost of core gameplay mechanics being dumbed down ?

I'm really getting sick of this "dumbed-down" idea in gaming. Just because a system is streamlined, does not mean that it's dumbed-down.

In case of ME1: before the change in order to be ready for combat I had to individually check the armor and weapons of each of my six team-mates, buy new upgrades, and generally do what people do in a RPG. This meant that I spent roughly 10-15 minutes of every hour AWAY from the combat of the game, doing things akin to a desk job. That is not the point of a game. If I wanted to do logistics, I'd work at UPS. And if I didn't do that? Well then the game would go from fun to impossible.

In ME2, they made the upgrades simple and easy to use, which meant that I could spend more time ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. You still require skill to win, it's now just easier to get your squad to do what you want, and you don't have to spend hours in total making sure that they have the absolutely positively best gear.

this. there is a massive difference between dumbing down and making a game smooth

just because the game is more streamlined now doesn't mean you need to throw a pissy elitist fit, big deal, play all your old games then if your in so desperate need for a "challenge" or, i'd recommend demon souls, as its one of the more challenging and complicated games i have played as of late

Wait, what is your point here? You lost me at "throwing a pissy elitist fit". You really need to express yourself more clearly if you want to be understood.

BTW "this" all on it's own makes no sense without some freaking context.

"this" is a common thing people use when they agree or were going to say what the person they are quoting said, therefore when i said "this" i was merely agreeing with what the person i had quoted said

and to clarify, it is just dumb when "pissy elitists" throw a "fit" because new games make it easier and it doesn't take you an hour to learn the games controls and/or quirks of the inventory or equip system, just because the developers now a days make it so you dont have to sit there for an hour in the menu deciphering what every single thing is, does not mean at all, that the game is being dumbed down or lessened in any way, you could apply this to literally everything, even computers themselves, personally it just reminds me of an old fart complaining 'back in my day we had this and this and this, mehhh!" it gets old and irritating when people just complain about the new stuff instead of just enjoying it for what it is

rant over. there, that is slightly summed up to what i meant earlier, since you wished for more context.

 

[Lemon Of Life]

I don't really think that there is any correlation between games being cinematic and straight-forward, but whatever. I love the former, and, since I'm not the kinda guy who loves rooting around in a menu for hours, I'm perfectly happy with the latter. It doesn't mean I don't enjoy making potions in Oblivion, or hotkeying my spells, but that's as complicated I'm happy to go.

 

[The Heik]

Lately I've seen a lot of positive reviews of and opinions on Mass Effect 2. To me it's just the last step in a trend which I've seen, and hated for a long time.
In order to make the game more 'accessible' and 'streamlined' the inventory management of Mass Effect 1 where you had to manage weapons and armor across teammates have been ripped out of the game entirely.

A similar example was the butchering of the Deus Ex franchise with Deus Ex 2 where lock picks and multi tools were combined into a single tool, all ammo types being discarded in favour of a uniform ammo resource and the skill system was done away with entirely.
( Ok, you can claim there's a minimal amount of management in the form of armor customization, but I completed the game just fine without *ever* concerning myself with this. I never even bought anything from a vendor, meaning it's reduced to a useless gimmick)

Similarly, one can look at Dragon's age which reduced the complex class-based systems seen in previous fantasy games from Bioware with 3 classes (was it ? I simply stopped playing this game before I was 10% done with the story).
This seemed even more simplistic than the original class system of the KOTOR series which also used a custom non-D&D set of rules.

It can also be seen in games such as the first Command & Conquer game versus C&C 3. In C&C 1 it made sense to combine different unit types to get a good well-rounded army whereas it's perfectly possible to steamroll people in C&C 3 using an army of Mammoth or scorpion tanks.

This, of course is seems even more shallow and awful when held up against the original Starcraft game in which there seems to be a counter to almost every unit and general strategy.


Sure, there are some counter-examples to offer such as CoD 1 to CoD 4 where perks and weapon upgrades have introduces a level of customization which was non-existent before. But to me it seems a pretty general trend that games get dumbed down nonetheless.

So, my question is, am I the only person who gets put off by this push towards "cinematic" experiences at the cost of core gameplay mechanics being dumbed down ?

I'm really getting sick of this "dumbed-down" idea in gaming. Just because a system is streamlined, does not mean that it's dumbed-down.

In case of ME1: before the change in order to be ready for combat I had to individually check the armor and weapons of each of my six team-mates, buy new upgrades, and generally do what people do in a RPG. This meant that I spent roughly 10-15 minutes of every hour AWAY from the combat of the game, doing things akin to a desk job. That is not the point of a game. If I wanted to do logistics, I'd work at UPS. And if I didn't do that? Well then the game would go from fun to impossible.

In ME2, they made the upgrades simple and easy to use, which meant that I could spend more time ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. You still require skill to win, it's now just easier to get your squad to do what you want, and you don't have to spend hours in total making sure that they have the absolutely positively best gear.

this. there is a massive difference between dumbing down and making a game smooth

just because the game is more streamlined now doesn't mean you need to throw a pissy elitist fit, big deal, play all your old games then if your in so desperate need for a "challenge" or, i'd recommend demon souls, as its one of the more challenging and complicated games i have played as of late

Wait, what is your point here? You lost me at "throwing a pissy elitist fit". You really need to express yourself more clearly if you want to be understood.

BTW "this" all on it's own makes no sense without some freaking context.

"this" is a common thing people use when they agree or were going to say what the person they are quoting said, therefore when i said "this" i was merely agreeing with what the person i had quoted said

and to clarify, it is just dumb when "pissy elitists" throw a "fit" because new games make it easier and it doesn't take you an hour to learn the games controls and/or quirks of the inventory or equip system, just because the developers now a days make it so you dont have to sit there for an hour in the menu deciphering what every single thing is, does not mean at all, that the game is being dumbed down or lessened in any way, you could apply this to literally everything, even computers themselves, personally it just reminds me of an old fart complaining 'back in my day we had this and this and this, mehhh!" it gets old and irritating when people just complain about the new stuff instead of just enjoying it for what it is

rant over. there, that is slightly summed up to what i meant earlier, since you wished for more context.

Oh Ok.

For a minute there I thought that you were disagreeing with me, and that I was the pissy elitist throwing a fit. My sincerest apologies.

 

[veloper]

The dumbing down isn't so much about complexity, but rather about challenge, a lack of.

Simple can be great aslong as the solution isn't too obvious.

 

[Twilight_guy]

Well your argument centers around the assumption that games are being dumbed down, which I don't think is true. I also think that the mechanics you mentioned were attempts to stream line games and not having to fuss with frustrating control systems. Yes customization is nice but extraneous amounts on info to manage during the game turns the experience of fun into the work of spreadsheet gaming. Some people enjoy that kind of thing but streamlining it is generally the prefered option. Some of those critics were also bad designer choices as well not general trends. Also, Dues Ex and C&C aren't really recent developments. Mass effect's system was changed because managing your inventory and getting weighted down with 80% useless items that you either had to sell or melt into Omnigel got really old after about the 50 time and was aggravating the 200 time.

For certain games, eliminating the extraneous menus and systems is a good idea because they add little to the actually experience but demand quiet a bit of work. Other times, eliminating systems does seem like dumbing down. Overall though, I actually see a trend towards more intricate and open games with more RPG elements and I like that.

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

Lately I've seen a lot of positive reviews of and opinions on Mass Effect 2. To me it's just the last step in a trend which I've seen, and hated for a long time.
In order to make the game more 'accessible' and 'streamlined' the inventory management of Mass Effect 1 where you had to manage weapons and armor across teammates have been ripped out of the game entirely.

A similar example was the butchering of the Deus Ex franchise with Deus Ex 2 where lock picks and multi tools were combined into a single tool, all ammo types being discarded in favour of a uniform ammo resource and the skill system was done away with entirely.
( Ok, you can claim there's a minimal amount of management in the form of armor customization, but I completed the game just fine without *ever* concerning myself with this. I never even bought anything from a vendor, meaning it's reduced to a useless gimmick)

Similarly, one can look at Dragon's age which reduced the complex class-based systems seen in previous fantasy games from Bioware with 3 classes (was it ? I simply stopped playing this game before I was 10% done with the story).
This seemed even more simplistic than the original class system of the KOTOR series which also used a custom non-D&D set of rules.

It can also be seen in games such as the first Command & Conquer game versus C&C 3. In C&C 1 it made sense to combine different unit types to get a good well-rounded army whereas it's perfectly possible to steamroll people in C&C 3 using an army of Mammoth or scorpion tanks.

This, of course is seems even more shallow and awful when held up against the original Starcraft game in which there seems to be a counter to almost every unit and general strategy.


Sure, there are some counter-examples to offer such as CoD 1 to CoD 4 where perks and weapon upgrades have introduces a level of customization which was non-existent before. But to me it seems a pretty general trend that games get dumbed down nonetheless.

So, my question is, am I the only person who gets put off by this push towards "cinematic" experiences at the cost of core gameplay mechanics being dumbed down ?

I'm really getting sick of this "dumbed-down" idea in gaming. Just because a system is streamlined, does not mean that it's dumbed-down.

In case of ME1: before the change in order to be ready for combat I had to individually check the armor and weapons of each of my six team-mates, buy new upgrades, and generally do what people do in a RPG. This meant that I spent roughly 10-15 minutes of every hour AWAY from the combat of the game, doing things akin to a desk job. That is not the point of a game. If I wanted to do logistics, I'd work at UPS. And if I didn't do that? Well then the game would go from fun to impossible.

In ME2, they made the upgrades simple and easy to use, which meant that I could spend more time ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. You still require skill to win, it's now just easier to get your squad to do what you want, and you don't have to spend hours in total making sure that they have the absolutely positively best gear.

this. there is a massive difference between dumbing down and making a game smooth

just because the game is more streamlined now doesn't mean you need to throw a pissy elitist fit, big deal, play all your old games then if your in so desperate need for a "challenge" or, i'd recommend demon souls, as its one of the more challenging and complicated games i have played as of late

Wait, what is your point here? You lost me at "throwing a pissy elitist fit". You really need to express yourself more clearly if you want to be understood.

BTW "this" all on it's own makes no sense without some freaking context.

"this" is a common thing people use when they agree or were going to say what the person they are quoting said, therefore when i said "this" i was merely agreeing with what the person i had quoted said

and to clarify, it is just dumb when "pissy elitists" throw a "fit" because new games make it easier and it doesn't take you an hour to learn the games controls and/or quirks of the inventory or equip system, just because the developers now a days make it so you dont have to sit there for an hour in the menu deciphering what every single thing is, does not mean at all, that the game is being dumbed down or lessened in any way, you could apply this to literally everything, even computers themselves, personally it just reminds me of an old fart complaining 'back in my day we had this and this and this, mehhh!" it gets old and irritating when people just complain about the new stuff instead of just enjoying it for what it is

rant over. there, that is slightly summed up to what i meant earlier, since you wished for more context.

Oh Ok.

For a minute there I thought that you were disagreeing with me, and that I was the pissy elitist throwing a fit. My sincerest apologies.

nope, you aren't, and its okay, i didn't clarify too much on what i meant

 

[Guitarmasterx7]

It depends. If the method of "dumbing down" removes things from the gameplay like weapons/abilities/vehicles/sidequests, (see San andreas-GTA4 transition) or makes the game insultingly easy (see metroid prime 3) then it definitely detracts from the overall experience. There are some instances where it can be good, however, if they remove arbitrary inconveniences or complications. Let's take fallout for example. If they took out weapon/armor decay I would definitely consider that an improvement.

 

[ShakesZX]

Lately I've seen a lot of positive reviews of and opinions on Mass Effect 2. To me it's just the last step in a trend which I've seen, and hated for a long time.
In order to make the game more 'accessible' and 'streamlined' the inventory management of Mass Effect 1 where you had to manage weapons and armor across teammates have been ripped out of the game entirely.

A similar example was the butchering of the Deus Ex franchise with Deus Ex 2 where lock picks and multi tools were combined into a single tool, all ammo types being discarded in favour of a uniform ammo resource and the skill system was done away with entirely.
( Ok, you can claim there's a minimal amount of management in the form of armor customization, but I completed the game just fine without *ever* concerning myself with this. I never even bought anything from a vendor, meaning it's reduced to a useless gimmick)

Similarly, one can look at Dragon's age which reduced the complex class-based systems seen in previous fantasy games from Bioware with 3 classes (was it ? I simply stopped playing this game before I was 10% done with the story).
This seemed even more simplistic than the original class system of the KOTOR series which also used a custom non-D&D set of rules.

It can also be seen in games such as the first Command & Conquer game versus C&C 3. In C&C 1 it made sense to combine different unit types to get a good well-rounded army whereas it's perfectly possible to steamroll people in C&C 3 using an army of Mammoth or scorpion tanks.

This, of course is seems even more shallow and awful when held up against the original Starcraft game in which there seems to be a counter to almost every unit and general strategy.

Sure, there are some counter-examples to offer such as CoD 1 to CoD 4 where perks and weapon upgrades have introduces a level of customization which was non-existent before. But to me it seems a pretty general trend that games get dumbed down nonetheless.

So, my question is, am I the only person who gets put off by this push towards "cinematic" experiences at the cost of core gameplay mechanics being dumbed down ?

I'm really getting sick of this "dumbed-down" idea in gaming. Just because a system is streamlined, does not mean that it's dumbed-down.

In ME2, they made the upgrades simple and easy to use, which meant that I could spend more time ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. You still require skill to win, it's now just easier to get your squad to do what you want, and you don't have to spend hours in total making sure that they have the absolutely positively best gear.

Hear, hear! just because something has become "cinematic" doesn't mean it's been "dumbed down". "Cinematic" games are more focused on the story and experience than their predecessors, which admittedly is not always a good thing (MGS4).

In Dragon Age, the simplification of the class system actually lent itself to deeper combat mechanics. If they had included all of the possible types of classes, including the combinations thereof, there would have been so many different types that most players would simply adopt a mentality of "use this one power all the way through the game cause it works" rather than try to learn all the ins and outs of each and every class. As it is now, there are a bevy of different skills that, on the harder levels of the game, adapt themselves better to certain situations, and different strategies can be employed.

With respect to the C&C series and other computer RTSs, your argument, while not unfounded, relies more on the fact that those units may be overpowered rather than a "dumbing down" of the game. As you noted, Starcraft was a marvel of strategy planning gaming.

There is not a widespread affliction of "dumbing down" in video games, despite the number that are being developed for broader player bases. Most of what you have described is not "dumbing down", but streamlining to improve gameplay.

 

[shadow skill]

In the case of Mass Effect 2 I would argue that rather than streamlining the interface, they made it superfluous. Streamlining would be letting you group items together and perform options on them, not effectively removing the inventory altogether. We don't even get decent armor customization in a game that bothers to show us what we are wearing currently.

 

[Ertis]

In order to make the game more 'accessible' and 'streamlined' the inventory management of Mass Effect 1 where you had to manage weapons and armor across teammates have been ripped out of the game entirely.

How does removing an unnecessary part of the game that removes you from actually PLAYING THE GAME equal dumbing it down?

I'll just quote daheikmeister:

I'm really getting sick of this "dumbed-down" idea in gaming. Just because a system is streamlined, does not mean that it's dumbed-down.

In case of ME2: before the change in order to be ready for combat I had to individually check the armor and weapons of each of your six team-mates, buy new upgrades, and generally do what people do in a RPG. This meant that I spent roughly 10-15 minutes of every hour AWAY from the combat of the game, doing things akin to a desk job. That is not the point of a game. If I wanted to do logistics, I'd work at UPS. And if I didn't do that? Well then the game would go from fun to impossible.

In ME2, they made the upgrades simple and easy to use, which meant that I could spend more time ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. You still require skill to win, it's now just easier to get your squad to do what you want, and you don't have to spend hours in total making sure that they have the absolutely positively best gear.

 

[philzibit]

I don't consider that "dumbed down". Dumbed down would be a puzzle that is answered for you without doing any work to solve it or a conflict that works itself out with no player intervention.

Your idea of dumbed down seems like you just enjoy menus. Games are meant to be fun, which fun for most is actually doing stuff working towards a resolution, not equipping people armor every few minutes because you got a new, better version a second ago.

 

[GuerrillaClock]

If 'dumbing down' means that games won't have the woeful, clunky inventory of ME1 then sign me up for a course of stupid pills. What, you want to spend half an hour wading through reams of identical items that you find in crates? Is that really fun?

Simple is good. Simple is hard to get wrong. It can still be fun just because it's more accessible, and making something a pain in the arse doesn't make it more "hardcore".

 

[EzraPound]

I like games straightforward but not cinematic?

Think Super Mario 64.