But, we don't deny treatment to those that do shoot/stab/burn themselves accidentally. We'll even pull that pesky hamster out of your ass if it gets stuck.DrDeath3191 said:
Poll: Equal Rights for Smokers
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Ok mayb I was a bit rash in my judgement, but it is only 3% of the world population that has that disease, I think it can hardly be qualified as the cause of western obesity. Most of the times, if someone is fat, it's their own fault.Skeleon said:
...You're a fatty, aren't you?Skeleon said:
Fact is, while genetic disorders do exist, it's far more likely that you're (I'm using the generic "you" here, not you specifically) a fatty because you eat too much. Occam's Razor and all that.
1.) Driving a vehicle isn't an addiction like cigarettes.Gormourn said:
2.) Our world has benefits from our transport system (travelling, exporting, etc). Smoking does not.
3.) People who walk or cycle DO get priority on the streets. At least here in the UK they do.
4.) Manufactorers are working on lowering pollution or bringing it down to zero (electric cars, cars that run on water, etc).
In the UK they will get medical attention, but their insurance company will pay for it if it's proven it is their fault.johnman said:
Never said that, I just wanted to point out that there are actual diseases leading to adipositas.The Infamous Scamola said:
No, I'm a med student so sorry for being preachy.The Bandit said:
All I did was point out that there are genetic as well as other pathological reasons for weight gain.
The only problem is that this kind of "this person deserves care more" view has already cropped up with insurance companies who are unwilling to insure people with pre-existing congenital conditions. Susan, I'm not attacking you in any way with this (some people might view it as such) but am merely saying that there is inequality in health care already.Susan Arendt said:
My wife has Crohn's disease, which basically means she gets ulcers all through her digestive tract that cause a lot of pain. Because she has this, there are virtually no options for health insurance. Add to the fact that I have hemophilia and we're both probably not going to be looking at affordable health insurance without some kind of assistance. The most annoying part of it is this; both our health issues are really not very serious, but COULD be and so the insurance guys refuse to take a risk on us. I've made it through 27 years of life and never had any serious complications due to my hemophilia, so I'm irritated by the fact that I will have to pay a ton more for health care because of something that is completely beyond my control.
Well I think this smells funny.
There are two horrible sides to this argument.
Side A: "I don't smoke and I pay my taxes, but those smokers eat up all the healthcare and I get none. Why should I pay my taxes and help people who did bad things to themselves knowingly."
Side B: "I smoke and pay my taxes, but I don't get any healthcare benefits because I smoke. I have to pay taxes and don't see any benefit to paying my fair share."
Inevitable answer, national helthcare won't work in the United States.
I'm up for arguments so flame on.
There are two horrible sides to this argument.
Side A: "I don't smoke and I pay my taxes, but those smokers eat up all the healthcare and I get none. Why should I pay my taxes and help people who did bad things to themselves knowingly."
Side B: "I smoke and pay my taxes, but I don't get any healthcare benefits because I smoke. I have to pay taxes and don't see any benefit to paying my fair share."
Inevitable answer, national helthcare won't work in the United States.
I'm up for arguments so flame on.
Yes they pay taxes so why not. Unless it's government owned or really dangerous, being a smoking or non smoking establishment should be up to the propetier/landlord or lady. Though to avoid the smoke from the smoking section drifting it should be in a slightly raised area with better ventilation and maybe a little ceiling guard to prevent the non smokers getting second hand smoke.
I'm the kind of guy who would let someone kill themselves if they were willing to hurt me to do it i.e. they have a gun with more than one bullet. Smoking is a hobby that isn't worth crying over if you had to suddenly stop, so these people who continue to smoke shouldn't get priority over those who get cancer from other sources.
In America smokers are paying so many taxes they're paying for non-smokers health care (if the government is to be believed and taxes are going to health care).DrDeath3191 said:
Your argument says that if you're overweight, at all, you have a heart problem, and it's determined to be a side effect of being overweight (and it will, the insurance companies will make sure of it), you don't get treatment for your hear condition.
I have a friend that tried to get his insurance to pay for medicine that's been proven to help people quit smoking. They refused to pay for the medicine, so apparently health insurance companies, at least in America, would rather you continue to smoke. Could this be due to money they get from the cigarette taxes?
Exactly. The people of each side think that their side is justified and that the other side is terribly wrong. Cigarettes and alcohol should have never existed, then we wouldn't have these problems. Instead of smoking, BREATHE. Breathing is more fun. Instead of drinking alcohol, drink WATER or SODA or TEA or any of the awesome drinks people have invented. They cause too many problems to be worth it.Aur0ra145 said:
Ok, sure, yes, smokers do essentially bring the harm upon themselves but, think of all the other ways people can do that, drinking, illegal street racing, idiots that attempt suicide, drug addicts.
It's all a matter of opinion in the end rue, but, think about it, sure smoking can cause some serious damage but compare it to that amount of damage drugs can do to the body and not just physically but mentally, and people who really mess themselves up with meth and coke and then get picked up by the state and put into rehab clinics where tax money is wasted on getting them better. And everyone just yells about how bad smokers are, in the end they can be considered addicts as well, cause Nicotine is just as bad as any other drug in many ways, quitting isn't easy.
Some people are just not that badly affected by smoking, my uncle has smoked all his life, even before he was legally allowed, and he still runs 3 miles in a little under 11 minutes. Some people are just naturally more at risk for it and some people more naturally resistant. Now, I don't agree with treating those who won't stop when their getting treatment cause then their just making a problem worst, sure it's irritating that many wait till the problem is at it's worst but I don't see why we should stop offering immediate healthcare to those who mess up themselves. I don't think it's fair to give them any more healthcare than anyone else but I don't see it as fair that they should be denied treatment until a later date, first come first serve with some minor excepions for major issues, it may suck sometimes but its about as fair as you can get.
It's all a matter of opinion in the end rue, but, think about it, sure smoking can cause some serious damage but compare it to that amount of damage drugs can do to the body and not just physically but mentally, and people who really mess themselves up with meth and coke and then get picked up by the state and put into rehab clinics where tax money is wasted on getting them better. And everyone just yells about how bad smokers are, in the end they can be considered addicts as well, cause Nicotine is just as bad as any other drug in many ways, quitting isn't easy.
Some people are just not that badly affected by smoking, my uncle has smoked all his life, even before he was legally allowed, and he still runs 3 miles in a little under 11 minutes. Some people are just naturally more at risk for it and some people more naturally resistant. Now, I don't agree with treating those who won't stop when their getting treatment cause then their just making a problem worst, sure it's irritating that many wait till the problem is at it's worst but I don't see why we should stop offering immediate healthcare to those who mess up themselves. I don't think it's fair to give them any more healthcare than anyone else but I don't see it as fair that they should be denied treatment until a later date, first come first serve with some minor excepions for major issues, it may suck sometimes but its about as fair as you can get.
Smoking tobacco and drinking alcohol has been going on for thousands of years, it's nothing new.Someperson307 said:
"Western" cigarettes contain many government mandated added chemicals that are responsible for many of the health problems. Japanese smokers have something like a 70% lower cancer rate, because their cigarettes don't contain these chemicals.
Soda contains sugar or harmful artificial sweeteners, not making it all that healthy.
Tea, I just found out, supposedly causes kidney stones. (I'm screwed if this really is true, I drink so much iced tea).
Water is really the best choice, although it's flavorless and unsatisfying, to me at least.
Yes, but this is just one issue of many, it will be a long drawn out battle over several years, and in the end no one will be happy, therefore I said a NHS wouldn't work in the United States.Skeleon said:
BTW, OT and not @ Skeleon. Did ya'll see that the FDA banned flavored cigarettes in the United States?
http://www.fda.gov/TobaccoProducts/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/FlavoredTobacco/default.htm
You do realize that insurance companies charge higher rates for smokers, why would the government not adopt a higher tax rate for those who choose unhealthy activites. Smoking and morbid obesity are just two examples in which I believe a person should have to pay a little extra in taxes (In a NHS situation). I'm not saying denying them healthcare in anyway, just a slightly higher tax. I'm also not suggesting a huge tax, just a minor one. Why are we absolving people of personal responsibilty? Why should I have to pay the same rate when I go to the gym and don't smoke as those who are obese and smoke? Is that really fair? I'm not shoving the food/cigerettes down their throat. They can choose to take better care of themselves if the tax becomes too much of a burden, or if they actually decide to take care of themselves.
This has probably been brought up already.
Smokers pay far and away more in taxes on cigarettes than they'll ever use back on the NHS due to smoking related illness'.
Long story short, Healthcare should be for everyone.
Edit: On the pub/club issue, i prefer that it's been banned indoors. As an infrequent barman it's nice to not have my eyes dying after a shift. The arguments against going outside are marginalied now that most clubs (near me atleast) have dedicated, covered areas specifically for smoking.
Smokers pay far and away more in taxes on cigarettes than they'll ever use back on the NHS due to smoking related illness'.
There are many arguments against a national healthcare system (a lot of them i don't agree with) but the impact of smokers should not be one of them. If you are a citizen and pay tax you should have a right to healthcare.
If you want better healthcare (a loosely defined 'better') you can pay for it with private insurance. Smokers and drinkers should pay extra tax on cigarettes and alcohol to offset their cost to the health service (which is what happens).
It's a similar argument for people who play sports, except sportsman don't pay taxes for sport related injuries. If i hurt myself playing rugby and need the nhs it doesn't matter i chose to play the sport? I've hurt myself doing an activity i know could lead me to hospital but i'm not denied healthcare.
If you want better healthcare (a loosely defined 'better') you can pay for it with private insurance. Smokers and drinkers should pay extra tax on cigarettes and alcohol to offset their cost to the health service (which is what happens).
It's a similar argument for people who play sports, except sportsman don't pay taxes for sport related injuries. If i hurt myself playing rugby and need the nhs it doesn't matter i chose to play the sport? I've hurt myself doing an activity i know could lead me to hospital but i'm not denied healthcare.
Long story short, Healthcare should be for everyone.
Edit: On the pub/club issue, i prefer that it's been banned indoors. As an infrequent barman it's nice to not have my eyes dying after a shift. The arguments against going outside are marginalied now that most clubs (near me atleast) have dedicated, covered areas specifically for smoking.