Poll: Female gamers like to shop, play support roles, says developer
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So then it does apply to you? I know 2 guys who would probably jump at the chance to pick out paint samples, but MOST guys wouldn't. I think it has been pretty apparent I am not saying there is not exceptions to the rule. Women also enjoy bringing semantics into an argument. (That is slightly chauvinistic so at least now you have something to complain about. I grew up in a household of women, I know how to push buttons too.)xXxJessicaxXx said:
Yeah, girls hate being wrong. Just kidding. Hehe. You are but 1 in a sea of probably over a hundred in my personal experience. Thus, they are fact to me. It is what I have seen with my own two "chauvinistic" eyes. Which is a word I see women throw around a little too often.
You are not THE female gamer is my point. Generalizations is exactly what one should do when trying to make a design for a game as you are aiming at an entire demographic. In this case, they are trying to specialize in appealing to the self imposed gender role interests of 2 entire demographics. Men didn't say women had to be known for shopping. Women did that themselves as that was a pastime they commonly enjoyed for the most part. Like a father taking his son to a baseball game. (In the US) Is a father taking his daughter to a baseball game any less special? Not really. But it isn't the same male bonding experience. It's just an role associated bonding experience. Many mothers like to take their daughters shopping to bond. Those are role associated bonding experiences. Men will a lot of times take their daughters shopping for the same purpose. Shopping means more to young girls than young boys because kids are more susceptible to gender roles. If your daughter likes to shop are you going to teach her not to just for the sake of breaking a perpetual stereotype? Ditto with the son and baseball?
These things stem from reality en mass. "The man" didn't sit behind a curtain and say "women will henceforth be known for cooking and shopping". Cooking, kinda yeah, he did say that... so I will give you that one. But that doesn't make Cooking Mama or Cake Mania sexist even though it is toting a female avatar.
This is actually a facebook app as far as I can tell from the article. It isn't coming to consoles afaik. I hunted down my Game Informer and it looks like it is going to be more app oriented than an actual... (platform title?) Thus it is going to get all kinds of recognition through facebook and such and the advertisements will probably be different. My main point is we hardly know anything yet (OP's article is like 3-5 sentences worth of useful information and that information is very loose.) and that which we do know certainly isn't enough to know how well or tastefully it will be done. Integrating something like this isn't guaranteed to be a bad thing.Astoria said:
To many naysayers are in the hobby nowadays. People ***** that games aren't innovative. A game barely gets announced (like this one announced this month) only to have the community attack anything new with malice and contempt. Even when they have no clue what they are talking about and are only going off of a vague "teaser" bit of info. L.A. Noire was and still is getting ragged on before anyone knew anything about it.
M'yes, let's lock down content based on stereotypes. Here's an idea though: Let all the content be unlocked for everyone to do with as they damned well please?
Demographics are one thing offensive stereotypical generalizations are another. It's not the 1960's we don't like being portrayed as only liking shopping ang washing up and dresses. It's the restriction that really bothers me, why the hell should we be told what we like? On either side in fact.Savagezion said:
And yes I know how to change the oil and break fluid in a car (if that's what you are referring to of course out of the many improtant things) and I don't even drive. I am nearly thirty though so I have had time to pick that up. You talk about women like you have been living in a bunker since the end of the war. As for picking out paint samples I know at least 10 guys who are very into building on the sims 3 and are actually better at interior design than alot of the women who go on the same site.
As for wanting to be offended and being oversensitive I actually defended Brink's descision in a recent thread not to have female avatars, Why? Because it's an fps and I don't particularly care.
With the shopping comment i'd like to say not everyone likes shopping, but everyone is a consumer whore and enjoys getting new things, whether it be from a quick 15 minute stop at your local store or a 3 hr drive to the closest city to shop at each and every top notch store around town for three days straight.
I think its a nice concept but could use some refining. Maybe instead of from the start of the game people are forced into classes because of their gender, their journey through the story and gameplay can be manipulated by how the player acts out the first few chapters. You're a girl but at the start of the game a ferocious kitten attacks you and, rather than tactfully moving to high ground you stare the thing down and tear its heart out. Then later on, due to your actions, you meet some dude who has a sword gives it to you for some reason blah blah... sorry i got lazy.
And i'm a bit stupid so i only have a sort of vague idea about the whole thing.
Anyway the point is gender shouldn't limit your actions too much in a game but it would be interesting to see different reactions from different people, such as "Here is the king's champion, sir... WTF your a girl?" Political story arc go, fight scene, climax break next chapter.
I hope to god this makes sense -.-'
I think its a nice concept but could use some refining. Maybe instead of from the start of the game people are forced into classes because of their gender, their journey through the story and gameplay can be manipulated by how the player acts out the first few chapters. You're a girl but at the start of the game a ferocious kitten attacks you and, rather than tactfully moving to high ground you stare the thing down and tear its heart out. Then later on, due to your actions, you meet some dude who has a sword gives it to you for some reason blah blah... sorry i got lazy.
And i'm a bit stupid so i only have a sort of vague idea about the whole thing.
Anyway the point is gender shouldn't limit your actions too much in a game but it would be interesting to see different reactions from different people, such as "Here is the king's champion, sir... WTF your a girl?" Political story arc go, fight scene, climax break next chapter.
I hope to god this makes sense -.-'
Guys, don't worry I think I might have an answer to this. It's Soviet Russia! Almost everything is backwards there when we see it. So perhaps to us it seems like they are making a gender specific game with a sprinkling of sexism, but to them they are just making another game. 
But in all seriousness, R&D where have you gone? Why have all of these companies abandoned thee?
But in all seriousness, R&D where have you gone? Why have all of these companies abandoned thee?
The whole concept is utterly ridiculous. Why in the world would you lock out part of the game's already existing content to someone merely because of what in-game gender they choose? Or worse, their actual gender? Female and want to do the hunting part of the game? Sucks to be you! Male and want to go shopping? You're SOL there, buddy.
I'm sorry, I was going to write more but the sheer absurdity of this idea has given me way too much to chew on. Maybe I'll be back later with more organized thoughts.
I'm sorry, I was going to write more but the sheer absurdity of this idea has given me way too much to chew on. Maybe I'll be back later with more organized thoughts.
That is a valid point. The only thing I think that may actually take precedent over the design for this game is that it is built around a social game structure. It is meant to be tied to your facebook. Application studies probably went in to this. The application "Fashion Designer" or "Mall World" and similar apps probably sport a high female player base. Whereas "Mercenaries of War" and "Auto Hustle" are probably predominantly male audiences. This surely plays a factor into it. How they are involving it, I don't know. I don't know anything about this game really just like everyone else. Even though I have now read two articles on it. Nothing in the article severs homogenization in end game for sure. Hell, nothing in the article is even finite actually; as far as the full capabilities of anything.Kotep said:
I am not saying that this game in no way shape or form will not have sexist undertones if all the speculation going on is true. But I don't think sexist by definition is derogatory either. As I said before, nature is sexist. It is why there are 2 sexes. This game is most likely not chauvinistic based on how the article was written. What we have here is a stepping stone that could lead into games exploring the male and female sex and their strengths and weaknesses. But if a huge outcry comes out, it will clam up and the industry will continue to spit out more "man and women are the same thing" and I think that is a bad thing. That is a perfect example of why political correctness is bad. Because it is glaringly obvious they are not the same. They are equals, yes. But they are not the same. But god help anyone who addresses that fact.
I will say it perhaps could be improved by allowing everyone to either pick a male or female avatar based on play style preferences. But the key word there is perhaps.
Where in the article does it say that the only thing you can do in the game is shop? Where in the article does it say ANYTHING definitive?xXxJessicaxXx said:
You ignore an opposing point in an argument like a lot of women I know. At this point I wonder just how much you're making shit up just because we are on the internet. AT this point I will just repost what I just posted with emphasis.
"I am not saying that this game in no way shape or form will not have sexist undertones if all the speculation going on is true. But I don't think sexist by definition is derogatory either. As I said before, nature is sexist. It is why there are 2 sexes. This game is most likely not chauvinistic based on how the article was written. What we have here is a stepping stone that could lead into games exploring the male and female sex and their strengths and weaknesses. But if a huge outcry comes out, it will clam up and the industry will continue to spit out more "man and women are the same thing" and I think that is a bad thing. That is a perfect example of why political correctness is bad. Because it is glaringly obvious they are not the same. They are equals, yes. But they are not the same. But god help anyone who addresses that fact." (As it is not politically correct. Read: Some people think that is a mean thing to say.)
That is apathy not defending it.
It's a shame, because the game sounds interesting. It looks better than most of the Facebook and social-based games available. Apparently you can eventually unlock everything that is restricted at the beginning, so I might consider playing it when it comes out - but if I have to play some kind of shopping mini-game, screw it.
I see this as a bit of a challenge, come to think of it. I want to take on a front-line role from the very beginning and progress through the game without doing any of the specifically girly crap. If it isn't possible to do this, I don't think Prime World is for me.
I see this as a bit of a challenge, come to think of it. I want to take on a front-line role from the very beginning and progress through the game without doing any of the specifically girly crap. If it isn't possible to do this, I don't think Prime World is for me.
I think you're missing the point here. It's not about whether or not generalizations are sometimes true (and of course they sometimes are). It's about the simple fact that they are not always true.Savagezion said:
Look, the developer should not be locking out certain parts of the game's content to people because other people in that person's demographic might not want to play it. A), because that individual person may in fact want to play it, and B), in all my years of gaming I've never encountered a part of any game EVER that was locked out just because I wasn't interested in it - what would be the benefit of doing it differently?
Think about it this way - I'm a male who's not at all interested in "shopping" (in that use of the word, anyway). But were I, there's nothing whatsoever stopping me from getting up, going down to the mall, and trapsing into whatever store. There's not law against it, no magical skyforce preventing me from doing so, no player clip brush placed over the entrance to the store. Why should the game be any different in that regard? Give players the freedom to choose. If the generalizations are in fact true the better half of the time, you'd see that happening naturally anyway without restricting people.
That being said, I think a game in which the player's chosen gender affected their experience could be interesting, if it was a core part of the narrative. But just using it to limit what people can do of their own free will in game with no other purpose would only serve to detract from the game, and would be enough that I would not consider playing it.
I don't care because it's an FPS and I really don't mind what my avatar is. If you read this thread http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.281854-Brink-No-Girls-Allowed?page=1 you can quite clearly see I was defending it and the developers desicions. What exactly am I making up? I don't quite understand you on that point.Savagezion said:
To answer your point about natural differences between people you could say that within the two genders aswell so I also think that is a bad idea. They shouldn't make games that point out the differences between men and women, because people are different. Not everyone is the same. The part of this game preview that is sexist is the fact they are taking the choice away from both sexes based on stereotypical gender roles. Which is wrong and a very bad things to do.
Which point that you have made am I ignoring exactly?
I'll let that sentence just speak for itself really.Savagezion said:
This is an excellent point and exactly what this game developer needs to see.Dense_Electric said:
I am saying they are true most of the time. When aiming for a large demographic, this is a reliable truth. Most women do enjoy things related to shopping. Most. As in more than 50%. A lot of cultures in the world today are even still based around the "woman does the shopping" mindset. Western society despite having women lib, it is still true. Most women like shopping, that isn't a demeaning thing to say. It's just a fact of the world that MANY marketing strategies are even based on. Yeah not ALL of them do. But enough to warrant a massive marketing campaign based on it. Enough that women's televisions shows made by women for women tout it like it is the official female sport. This is a truth. It isn't some taboo I am blowing out my ass. This is a stereotype the female gender perpetuates on itself. But it is sexist if a male recognizes it. It is a double standard.Dense_Electric said:
Where in the article did it say they were locking it out? That women are not allowed to hunt in this game?
THAT is the whole point! No one has done this before. They are gonna do something different with it and you know what? It might actually serve some purpose in the social aspect of the game and that may actually be the reason behind the purpose of their design. It's crazy, I know.
The article doesn't say men can't shop in the game. Check again if you need to.
First impressions, man. They ain't always right. I agree about player's chosen gender. But I won't discredit this idea until I see it in finer detail. We really have no details as of yet. Just broad gameplay generalizations. That is ironic that people are making generalizations about this game, leading them to the conclusion that this game is horrible because it generalizes its audience. Again, with the double standard.
I couldn't care less how you feel about Brink. I was making a point that not caring is not the same thing as defending. Defending means you agree with that decision and back them. You stated that Brink's decision was ludicrous in this thread so it just means you don't give a crap. That's fine and dandy. The other point was just a disregard of the argument because it was semantics. The following is what I wanted you to address.xXxJessicaxXx said:
Men and women operate on a 90% level the same as others of their gender. Your body works the same way as other women's bodies. You relate more to women than to men. You identify more with women and their struggles more than men. They SHOULD make games that differentiate between women and men. It helps give the player a sense of gender identity in the game. Mass Effect could have been 10 times better if female Shepard ran into different problems than male Shepard would have. It would have helped a male get a female's perspective and vice versa and that is not a bad thing. Melee based RPGs could even have different combat styles be more effective based on gender. You could even take this into the realms of aspirations for an even deeper look at the gender.
People are different in a whole other manner. I don't expect designers to make a 3D model of ME in every game so that I can properly relate.
You don't have any evidence of that. The article doesn't say it, you are assuming it does. Is what it alludes to is that it is going to try and guess what you might be interested in, but they didn't say there are no other doors present. They mentioned one available door for each gender using the words "may launch ____ activity" and "might go _______ together." May and might means you may or might do something else. These may be the same minigames with different names and sprites for all we know. I am saying why are your feathers already ruffled up when this is the first announcement and you know 0 details except that there is a mechanic called gender roles where they are trying to cater to both genders."
Fancy that. You address my point and then act coy.
Fine by me, you waited until I said that before you actually addressed my point and got off the semantics.
Savagezion said:
The reason I brought Brink up is because you accused those offended by this of being over sensitive and jumping at the chance to shout sexism. I thought the idea that they left female avatars out because they didn't think people could handle them being stomped on as ludicrous, however I thought the reason why Splash Damage didn't make female avatars was time and money constraints. They stated as much in the media. That was reasonable to me but it wasn't to other people in that thread I linked and I defended that desicion. However, alot of the female posters in this thread as well as male agree with me that this idea that women like shopping over combat in a game is ridiculous.
If it was true that women only like to play games to shop do you think there would be any women on this website at all or as many?
I doubt it.
You began defending the article and the idea that women should be locked into shopping mode when playing, when you saw that people were disagreeing you fell back on the vagueties of the article. The fact that it's vague only goes even more to concern me. If they actually pointed out that it was only a choice whther you go 'shopping' that would be fine by me. I would choose the other option (unless I needed something to continue the game). What is concerning people is that there doesn't seem to be that choice and you are locked into a certain style of gameplay due to your sex.
It is, but women are going to be allowed to combat. Another read through the article actually tells you that one currently has a panther that when it is alive she is invulnerable. Additionally the classes/gender isn't set yet.xXxJessicaxXx said:
"Nival has yet to determine exactly which heroes and roles will be available to each gender at the beginning of the game. -snip- Either way, one can eventually unlock everything through in-game currency."
Now that you have read that... what are you complaining about exactly? That they let women shop at the start and men hunt? (As an example no doubt) Becuase I don't see any actual ground for authentic bitching about sexism here.
If it were true that all Prime World was, was a chauvinistic shopping simulator that excludes the girls from all the action do you think I would be trying to constantly point out that you have no evidence of that?
I doubt it.
Woah, woah. I never said the game should be like that. I said that I can understand them using gender role association as a mechanic for the gameplay. When I saw people were disagreeing? What thread are you reading? I came into this thread knowing my opinion was not going to be popular here. Normally I just avoid these *sexist term* threads. The escapist is so feminist I imagine they would annoy feminists. It is unacceptable for women to be sexy in this community. Trust me, I catch every Lara Croft jab as I am a Tomb Raider fan and think she is a
This thread I only posted into because the OP was wanting our thoughts on it and everyone started crying foul play and I saw nothing really wrong going on here but a whole bunch of people just running wild with accusations and all that crap. My first post is on page 2 and never once did I say that women shouldn't be allowed anything. I said I understand catering to that appeal as it is prevalent in many women I have played MMOs with.
Your very last line is what everyone is assuming by reading the article with their "oppression goggles" on. Read it and look for what the mechanics are. Know how I know a female hero has a panther for combat? Paragraph 5.
"Orlovsky shared one example of a hero who has a tough panther pet that makes the hero herself invulnerable while it's alive."
I am telling you on this site when someone yells "SEXIST" people can't post a reply to agree fast enough instead of looking at the content and trying to determine if it is or not. I am seriously surprised Dead or Alive beach volleyball and jiggle physics didn't come up by now since we are on page 4. Sorry, but stuff like this irritates me in the gaming community. I know women haven't been represented the best in the medium but they are getting there. If you want to complain about DOA I'll agree. Complain about Bayonetta, I will raise an eyebrow but not say anything. ***** about Lara Croft and I will disagree but try my hardest to keep it to myself. But for gender roles in games, no that is a mechanic that can be used in a multitude of games in a positive manner. You can claim sexist all day for a game that sports a female protagonist because you don't get many of those but in this case, it is a game that is addressing both genders in unique ways from one another that is gameplay reflecting nature. Not Sexism.
Now, as I said before, I am not placing full trust in the fact this game won't possibly have sexist undertones. But I am saying nobody knows it will yet.
That's very true. But they couldn't have missed the point more.PhiMed said:
Telling a whole gender what they want to do and then making them do it is not the best way to sell your game. Especially when you discover that a lot of these people will, in fact, not want to do these things.
I do have a problem with the the women starting out with the shopping option and the men the combat because it's obnoxiously sexist. It's offensive to me. Because it harks back to the time when women where expected to enjoy such things and like pretty dresses and do the housework. It's historically offensive.Savagezion said:
I thank you for putting your case a little more clearly, at least.
I have no problem with Lara Croft, she is totally misportrayed by the media as a sexy bimbo when in fact she is a strong female lead and was a role model for me when I was 16, one of the reasons in fact why I have a BA in History and Classical Studies. I have big boobs too I don't demerit her for that. I can see why you defend her so readily, I agree with you on that front(scuse the pun
).I still don't agree with you on the female game protagonists should be different front because everyone act and reacts differently. I'm a geek, my sister is practically the english version of a desperate housewife and I have a friend who is an excessively agressive biker reminiscent of Jack from Mass Effect.
Maybe the NPC'S could act differently towards you but you shouldn't miss out on gameplay elements because of your sex or that of your character. Perhaps we can agree to disagree.