Poll: Free will, does it exist?

[Calhoun347]

Perhaps, or Perhaps not. But to go living life thinking that all your actions are pre-determined is a real cop-out for saying "I'm not responsible for what i've done." By that logic, Hitler was A-okay, he didn't make those decisions, they were pre-determined and indeterminable amount of time ago.

It's also a rather depressing thought, Thinking you have no free will.

So basically, if you believe you have no free will you are pessimistic sort of person, who doesn't like to take responsibility for his actions. If you believe in free will you are likely an optimistic, (Or egotistical) person who takes responsibility for his actions.

Oh dear, i must not have free will because i just proved Godwin's law.

Oh, by the way, i do indeed believe i have free will, and that i determine all choices made by my person, whether i make them for selfish reasons, selfless reasons or accommodate to the wishes of others. There is no invisible hand guiding my actions.

If you've ever read any of my posts that deal with ethical issues, you'll have noticed that I'm not entirely pessimistic when it comes to humanity, rather cautiously hopeful, even what some people would call an idealist.

I don't believe this way of thinking necessarily leads to nihilism or the crumbling of ethical values. Whether it is in spite of or due to this way of thinking, I do feel one can very well be empathic, hopeful and responsible.

Life is a ride. We do experience free will; I feel we ought to aim to please ourselves and others, even if on an intellectual level we might realize that whether or not we do so is not entirely "up to us" in a philosophical sense.

That said, I have to admit, I am a depressed person myself. I am not sure whether that is evidence of anything, as I also know that many people who believe that technically there is no free will, are not depressed, but relatively cheery people.

How can you feel good knowing that your actions are not really your own? That doesn't seem to add up, that sort of logic means that life is, how you put it a ride. But there is no interaction, You are a captive party forced to live through whatever pre-determined seris of events are put in front of you, and even where you should be able to interact (With your own responses / actions) it's not really you. It's what HAD to happen. If i knew for a fact that everything i did was not really what i have done. How could i feel any sense of accomplishment?

I suppose that assumes that i know that i have no freewill but if your making the argument that we have none, don't you? I suppose you probably wouldn't think about the fact that there is no freewill when going about your life. But isn't this already contradictory to the no freewill argument? Choosing to not think about it?

Or does this no freewill world not allow you to think about your lack of freewill as you go about your life? I just don't really see how you can lack free will, even now as you make your choices, and think about things. I just can't understand how everything that happens could possibly be predetermined. From any standpoint really. Religiously many people may believe that while "God has a plan" there is plenty of room for change in it. From a physics standpoint, Quantum mechanics don't really allow for a purely predetermined course of events.
From a philosophical standpoint. Doesn't your belief in whether or not there is free will stem from your own thinking on the matter?

 

[phatdog45]

i don't know. i know that every single action I take has a consequence, but i have no idea if the universe already knows which ones i will

 

[phatdog45]

how the fuck is that relevant?

 

[phatdog45]

my mind = blown

 

[phatdog45]

._.

 

[phatdog45]

Free will does exist. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted this.

Your argument is flawed. You posted this because you believe in free will due to certain events in your past, and posting that would uphold your beliefs.

Which is explained by this:
There is no free will. We only do that which we can given who we are and what our environment is, neither of which are chosen by us before they affect us. And that which we can do is that which we must do and therefor will do. There is no chance, there is no possibility of two different outcomes occurring because given the environment any action is performed in, the performer is given stimuli which lead to one action, and no other.

More simply, if you have a random number generator, and the first number it spits out is a 7, and you recreate an exact replica, which receives the EXACT same stimuli and input as the first (this includes EVERYTHING that could change the outcome, such as time between creation ad activation, the exact environment (including perfect replication of molecular surroundings), among many other things)...if these conditions are met, then the number generator has no option but to produce a 7 on it's first use.

Before you say that this will never happen, I know that. It is a thought experiment to prove that a single set of givens, such as those present in an environment and a person, must result in one action, and no other.

On the bright side, this might as well be free will, because there will probably never be a way to predict with 100% probability the result of any given situation, and since we don't know the future, it might as well be that our "choices" create it as we see fit.

It should just be remembered that we have no power over what we see as "fit."

that is fucking insane, but in a "i believe you" kind of way

 

[Mr.Pandah]

I don't really agree with the quote. I think that if you believe you are in control, than you are in fact in control. If you don't, then...no wonder we're all sitting here whittling away the hours discussing stuff like this.

 

[KingPiccolOwned]

A man chooses. A slave obeys.

But aren't we all really slaves?

To be honest, alot of what you and the person from whom you took that quote really just sounds like the ramblings of someone with waaaaaaaay too much time on their hands. Besides, while the concept that the laws of physics dictate that the events of the universe are preordained sounds very convenient as a manner in which to make sense of the question why, it doesn't really seem to take into account enough variables. Although I do know what could disprove it, if someone made timetravel (the kind that goes backwards) although since that is simply speculatory, I don't think it counts.

 

[FalloutJack]

A funny thing. I think we have free will, sure. I don't recall anyone saying that I can't. Well, who says? You could try to order me, but I only decide to follow of my own volition. You could try to philosophize the proof to me, but philosophy could not make it an empyrical fact. You could say that god said so, but that is false. Not only does god not actively control us, but he goes out of his way not to be a bother sometimes. Free will is something you have until you decide to give it up. After then, I guess you don't have free will, sure.

 

[Sad Robot]

How can you feel good knowing that your actions are not really your own? That doesn't seem to add up, that sort of logic means that life is, how you put it a ride. But there is no interaction, You are a captive party forced to live through whatever pre-determined seris of events are put in front of you, and even where you should be able to interact (With your own responses / actions) it's not really you. It's what HAD to happen. If i knew for a fact that everything i did was not really what i have done. How could i feel any sense of accomplishment?

It's my experience of me; for all intents and purposes it is me, however, that doesn't mean I am more than a series of chemical reactions governed by the laws of physics. It doesn't change the fact that we do things, we feel pain, pleasure, we commit acts that can be considered righteous or awful depeding on your point of view. Our accomplishments are ours much in the same way our feelings are: through our experience of them.

I suppose that assumes that i know that i have no freewill but if your making the argument that we have none, don't you? I suppose you probably wouldn't think about the fact that there is no freewill when going about your life. But isn't this already contradictory to the no freewill argument? Choosing to not think about it?

As was mentioned in the quote in my OP: our sense of freedom is a comforting lullaby selected in evolution in order for us to remain "sane".

Or does this no freewill world not allow you to think about your lack of freewill as you go about your life? I just don't really see how you can lack free will, even now as you make your choices, and think about things. I just can't understand how everything that happens could possibly be predetermined. From any standpoint really. Religiously many people may believe that while "God has a plan" there is plenty of room for change in it. From a physics standpoint, Quantum mechanics don't really allow for a purely predetermined course of events.
From a philosophical standpoint. Doesn't your belief in whether or not there is free will stem from your own thinking on the matter?

People often cite quantum mechanics in order to disprove determinism. I'm not claiming that there is no "random" movement within atoms, I think whether or not it is so, is irrelevant. But how does that make your "sense of self" any more in control of your actions?

Also, the person the quote in the original post came from is well versed in quantum mechanics.

 

[Uszi]

WALL OF TEXT WARNING

*image of angry wookies snipped*
Free will does exist. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted this.

But if you were born in Uganda, you wouldn't have posted that. If you had broken your toe a thousandth of a second before reading this thread, you wouldn't have posted that. If your development as a person had not determined the flavor of your sense of humor you would not have posted that. If you hadn't have found that picture to begin with, you wouldn't have posted that.

So... I guess it all gets back to what is your definition of free will?

If it's just the ability to decide between options in the present momement, then sure you have free will. But, that seems like a pretty shallow definition of free will.

If instead you're talking about whether or not we control our own destinies, or whether or not our futures are "written" so to speak, then it's a whole different matter, and you posting a picture of angry wookies doesn't even scratch the surface of the issue.

Yes it does. If everything is predetermined, why? Who determined it? Why is it that way? Does someone already know what I'm going to have for breakfast tomorrow?

Why--irrelevant.
Who--irrelevant.

Let me ask you: if we could perform some sort of crazy time bending experiment, and run 1,000 trials of Hitler's life without changing a single detail, out of how many of those trials would you guess that Hitler would make the same choices he made 80 years ago? How many times would he instead try and build unity between Germans of all races?

Another thought experiment: if we could watch a man navigate a maze from an aerial perspective, we would see him come to a room which splits into 20 paths. From our aerial perspective, we see the whole maze, and we see that the 20 paths all end in instant death from fall into spike pit. The man makes a choice; does he freely choose his fate?

A final thought experiment: we place the same man in a maze with 2 paths instead of 20, one good path and one spike pit path. We line the spike pit path with 100 dollar bills, which he needs to feed his hungry family. We line the good path with thorns and and mosquitos and trouble. He, of course, does not know there is a spike pit at all, and chooses the path of 100 dollar bills. Does he freely choose his fate?

There need not be one specific "who." Who could be everyone who has ever influenced the way you thought about the world. Or it could be no person at all. All of your actions are predetermined by your circumstances.

I am only posting on the escapist right now because I'm avoiding homework. If I didn't have an exam tomorrow, I would never have known this thread existed, and would never have offered my opinion.

BUT:
There is a dichotomy between what we perceive and what actually is. There is no way of perceiving all of the circumstances that influence our decision, or of seeing what the results of our decision will be. So from our limited perspective, within the maze so to speak, we have free will. But in reality, getting to the philosophical truth of the matter, there is no free will. Our destinies are determined by our sociology, our psychology, our biology, and out history.

How does that Disprove free will? That only proves that we have little power over others. However, free will doesn't extend to control of other events, it only pertains to control of oneself. As in you are the source of your own thoughts, and actions.

But if you read into it, you are not the source of your own thoughts and actions.

If you had been raised by Osama Bin Laden, your thoughts would be of jihad, your actions would be car bombings. If you had been raised by Mahatma Gandhi, you wouldn't be wasting your time on this forum, you'd be trying to correct social ills.

My suggestion? Look into social psychology. You may think you choose what you choose, but bonified research literally says the opposite:
http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/psp/35/10/691.pdf

The extent to which outside circumstance affects your thinking on things can be a little scary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring_and_adjustment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Availability_heuristic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representativeness_heuristic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_diversification
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

As a Christian, I definitely believe in freewill.

As a christian you definitely shouldn't.

Jeremiah 1:5

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart...

God is all knowing and all powerful. He knew before he formed Hitler in the womb that he would incite the genocide of millions. He also had the power to stop it from happening. But he didn't. Christians more often then not believe that God allows things to happen, or stops other things because of his master plan: i.e. God "let" 911 happen because its part of his plan.

Does that mean that the masterminds of 911 chose their decisions freely, if it was part of God's plan from the moment of creation, literally set in motion eons before they set their own plan in motion?

Are the bombers in Hell for doing what God planned for them to do when he created the World?

The hard lined Christian response outlines the dichotomy I already mentioned: God has already decided, before you were born, all of the events, circumstances, etc in your life, knowing how you would respond to them, with the power to altar them at any moment to suite his needs. He already knows if you are going to heaven or hell. You perceive the choice of Heaven or Hell only because of your limited human condition.

 

[randomsix]

A man chooses. A slave obeys.

But aren't we all really slaves?

To be honest, alot of what you and the person from whom you took that quote really just sounds like the ramblings of someone with waaaaaaaay too much time on their hands. Besides, while the concept that the laws of physics dictate that the events of the universe are preordained sounds very convenient as a manner in which to make sense of the question why, it doesn't really seem to take into account enough variables. Although I do know what could disprove it, if someone made timetravel (the kind that goes backwards) although since that is simply speculatory, I don't think it counts.

The only way you could "timetravel" would be by making a machine that could return the universe to an original state, except for you and the machine (assuming that there are not infinite parallel universes in different states of unfolding). Even then, it wouldn't really be time travel because nothing is going back in time, things are just being rearranged, but it might as well be. Anyway, if this is true, you can't undo things in the past, and the only changes you make after you "travel" are to the future, which is still governed by the ideas in my previous post.

Also, to those who say that there is an inherent randomness in quantum mechanics, I would posit that there is simply stuff going on that we don't know about, but that is still deterministic.

 

[Calhoun347]

Oops, I messed up, See Below

 

[Aphroditty]

I think you people aren't getting the point of this. It's not saying you are a puppet being controlled and you can't do what you want to. It's that the workings of your mind made you respond to this thread or even post a picture of Wookies on Kashyyk. And if you decided against something at the last minute, it's because of how your mind is made.

Interesting theory.

It is interesting, of course, but I think that the main problem with it is that there is no way to either prove or disprove it, because it is circular. There's no evidence either way. The theory is neither right, nor wrong--only tantalizing, but ultimately unquantifiable.

So basically we're all going to talk forever about it, and learn whether we choose to believe one way or another (belief, incidentally, is supposed to be disproved by neuroscience sometime in the near future, which is in line with this theory and might someday actually provide some evidence--since having some kind of personality founded in beliefs would probably be an important part of having free will).

 

[Calhoun347]

It's my experience of me; for all intents and purposes it is me, however, that doesn't mean I am more than a series of chemical reactions governed by the laws of physics. It doesn't change the fact that we do things, we feel pain, pleasure, we commit acts that can be considered righteous or awful depeding on your point of view. Our accomplishments are ours much in the same way our feelings are: through our experience of them.

As was mentioned in the quote in my OP: our sense of freedom is a comforting lullaby selected in evolution in order for us to remain "sane".

So What your saying is despite Beliving that you have no free will you still maintain some sort of illusion of free will which allows you to enjoy things despite the fact that everything you do is pre-determined.

People often cite quantum mechanics in order to disprove determinism. I'm not claiming that there is no "random" movement within atoms, I think whether or not it is so, is irrelevant. But how does that make your "sense of self" any more in control of your actions?

Also, the person the quote in the original post came from is well versed in quantum mechanics.

It's my experience of me; for all intents and purposes it is me, however, that doesn't mean I am more than a series of chemical reactions governed by the laws of physics

Are those statements not contradictory? If there is random movement within atoms, then doesn't that work against non-free will? If there is this random movement, how can things really be predetermined. They simply can't. If there is truly random movement within atoms this affects things, meaning it is impossible to recreate the same event exactly how it occured before, there would never be a way to truly simulate the event. This may not exactly support the conventional free will statement (I control my own thoughts and actions) but does this atleast disprove that all actions and thoughts have been predetermined?

 

[randomsix]

A funny thing. I think we have free will, sure. I don't recall anyone saying that I can't. Well, who says? You could try to order me, but I only decide to follow of my own volition. You could try to philosophize the proof to me, but philosophy could not make it an empyrical fact. You could say that god said so, but that is false. Not only does god not actively control us, but he goes out of his way not to be a bother sometimes. Free will is something you have until you decide to give it up. After then, I guess you don't have free will, sure.

The idea of free will doesn't get muddy until you ask yourself WHY you made those decisions. If you dig deep enough, you will see that you really didn't control the decision at all.

Doing something you want to doesn't mean that free will exists.

 

[Sad Robot]

To be honest, alot of what you and the person from whom you took that quote really just sounds like the ramblings of someone with waaaaaaaay too much time on their hands.

The person I translated the quote from is the professor of theoretical physics (previously professor of cosmology) at the University of Helsinki. He has has written several books that popularize physics for which he has won several awards. He has also been granted the Magnus Ehrnrooth Foundation Physics Award for his efforts in particle physics and cosmology.

I assume all of this is naturally obscure information for those who are not from Finland, but he is a relatively accomplished scientist nevertheless.

Besides, while the concept that the laws of physics dictate that the events of the universe are preordained sounds very convenient as a manner in which to make sense of the question why, it doesn't really seem to take into account enough variables.

What do you mean... variables other than physics?

 

[Uszi]

It is interesting, of course, but I think that the main problem with it is that there is no way to either prove or disprove it, because it is circular. There's no evidence either way. The theory is neither right, nor wrong--only tantalizing, but ultimately unquantifiable.

All you have to do is that circumstance can affect your decision making, to the extent that your choice could be predicted if one knew all of the circumstances and properly understood how they would influence you.

This, as I mention in my post above, has already been done.

[/quote]

*SNIP*

 

[Sad Robot]

So What your saying is despite Beliving that you have no free will you still maintain some sort of illusion of free will which allows you to enjoy things despite the fact that everything you do is pre-determined.

Something like that.

Are those statements not contradictory? If there is random movement within atoms, then doesn't that work against non-free will?

No.

If there is this random movement, how can things really be predetermined. They simply can't. If there is truly random movement within atoms this affects things, meaning it is impossible to recreate the same event exactly how it occured before, there would never be a way to truly simulate the event. This may not exactly support the conventional free will statement (I control my own thoughts and actions) but does this atleast disprove that all actions and thoughts have been predetermined?

See here:

I think you people aren't getting the point of this. It's not saying you are a puppet being controlled and you can't do what you want to. It's that the workings of your mind made you respond to this thread or even post a picture of Wookies on Kashyyk. And if you decided against something at the last minute, it's because of how your mind is made.

Interesting theory.