Poll: Free will, does it exist?

[FalloutJack]

A funny thing. I think we have free will, sure. I don't recall anyone saying that I can't. Well, who says? You could try to order me, but I only decide to follow of my own volition. You could try to philosophize the proof to me, but philosophy could not make it an empyrical fact. You could say that god said so, but that is false. Not only does god not actively control us, but he goes out of his way not to be a bother sometimes. Free will is something you have until you decide to give it up. After then, I guess you don't have free will, sure.

The idea of free will doesn't get muddy until you ask yourself WHY you made those decisions. If you dig deep enough, you will see that you really didn't control the decision at all.

Doing something you want to doesn't mean that free will exists.

Many of those occasions, the answer to the "Why?" is "Why not?". There wasn't a rule, there wasn't a fence, and nobody asked me to jump through hoops. So why? Just 'cause.

*Shrug*

I dunno what to tell ya, man. Nobody said I couldn't. And if anyone did, nobody stopped me. And when I did, there was no punishment.

 

[randomsix]

A funny thing. I think we have free will, sure. I don't recall anyone saying that I can't. Well, who says? You could try to order me, but I only decide to follow of my own volition. You could try to philosophize the proof to me, but philosophy could not make it an empyrical fact. You could say that god said so, but that is false. Not only does god not actively control us, but he goes out of his way not to be a bother sometimes. Free will is something you have until you decide to give it up. After then, I guess you don't have free will, sure.

The idea of free will doesn't get muddy until you ask yourself WHY you made those decisions. If you dig deep enough, you will see that you really didn't control the decision at all.

Doing something you want to doesn't mean that free will exists.

Many of those occasions, the answer to the "Why?" is "Why not?". There wasn't a rule, there wasn't a fence, and nobody asked me to jump through hoops. So why? Just 'cause.

*Shrug*

I dunno what to tell ya, man. Nobody said I couldn't. And if anyone did, nobody stopped me. And when I did, there was no punishment.

Read Sad Robot's quote of ElTigre right above your post. This is a good explanation.

 

[Calhoun347]

It is interesting, of course, but I think that the main problem with it is that there is no way to either prove or disprove it, because it is circular. There's no evidence either way. The theory is neither right, nor wrong--only tantalizing, but ultimately unquantifiable.

All you have to do is that circumstance can affect your decision making, to the extent that your choice could be predicted if one knew all of the circumstances and properly understood how they would influence you.

This, as I mention in my post above, has already been done.

*SNIP*

If i knew everything then presumably yes i could predict any event. However i can't know everything. It's impossible. Even if i could retain all that knowledge, there is true random (Quantum Mechanics) which makes that impossible, You could make the argument that if you knew every thing than you would know what these randoms were, but that would mean there are no true randoms.

So essentially you have to pick a side, There either is a true random, or there isn't.

 

[Brad Shepard]

You have as much free will as you think you do.

 

[Aphroditty]

All you have to do is that circumstance can affect your decision making, to the extent that your choice could be predicted if one knew all of the circumstances and properly understood how they would influence you.

This, as I mention in my post above, has already been done.

Yes, I read that. It proves nothing, except that if you know everything ever you can spot patterns. It's only trivially true that you can predict behavior and outcomes, and doesn't really get to the bottom of anything. Also, it assumes that I agree with your definition of 'free will,' which I don't. Free will simply is whether or not an individual can make a choice.

To refute free will, all you have to do is claim that when the choice was made, it was made because it was going to happen that way. Circular. "He made that choice because he was going to make that choice--he didn't have a choice."

I can understand why that's attractive, but it's still just a belief. The opposite ("He made that choice, but he could have made the other choice solely from his own agency") is similarly circular.

EDIT: And at this point, I withdraw from the conversation. Which side ends up being 'right' will simply depend on who has the better rhetorical flourishes.

 

[FalloutJack]

A funny thing. I think we have free will, sure. I don't recall anyone saying that I can't. Well, who says? You could try to order me, but I only decide to follow of my own volition. You could try to philosophize the proof to me, but philosophy could not make it an empyrical fact. You could say that god said so, but that is false. Not only does god not actively control us, but he goes out of his way not to be a bother sometimes. Free will is something you have until you decide to give it up. After then, I guess you don't have free will, sure.

The idea of free will doesn't get muddy until you ask yourself WHY you made those decisions. If you dig deep enough, you will see that you really didn't control the decision at all.

Doing something you want to doesn't mean that free will exists.

Many of those occasions, the answer to the "Why?" is "Why not?". There wasn't a rule, there wasn't a fence, and nobody asked me to jump through hoops. So why? Just 'cause.

*Shrug*

I dunno what to tell ya, man. Nobody said I couldn't. And if anyone did, nobody stopped me. And when I did, there was no punishment.

Read Sad Robot's quote of ElTigre right above your post. This is a good explanation.

The philosophy angle. Nah, I heard enough of that in Metaphyics. I think you're pushing yourselves too hard to make this point. The truth is, there's no benefit in denying free will. Every time you try and chuck it out the window, you realize something's missing because you had to amputate a real thing that you had once. (It was probably an elephant, if you'll pardon the metaphor.)

 

[Calhoun347]

So What your saying is despite Beliving that you have no free will you still maintain some sort of illusion of free will which allows you to enjoy things despite the fact that everything you do is pre-determined.

Something like that.

Then i really don't see how that works out, It seems some sort of abstract circular logic. However if you really believe that (and i believe you do) then i suppose i can't really tell you that you're wrong at this point. Guess i'm done here.

 

[sokka14]

i've just read hegel's lordship and bondage on this, and i can safely say thanks to him i haven't a fucking clue.

arbeit macht frei

EDIT: although, i will say for the complexity and ambivalence of this topic, i hardly think "yes" or "no" covers all the possible viewpoints.

 

[deleted_scifidownbeat]

DELETED

 

[Sad Robot]

The truth is, there's no benefit in denying free will.

Perhaps there is no other benefit to it than that it is an interesting theory and, as far as I'm concerned, the most logical one.

Then i really don't see how that works out, It seems some sort of abstract circular logic. However if you really believe that (and i believe you do) then i suppose i can't really tell you that you're wrong at this point. Guess i'm done here.

How is it circular logic? The fact that I'm genetically programmed to believe I have free will, even if I technically don't, means what exactly?

 

[Mad World]

As a christian you definitely shouldn't.

I do not agree; God may know everything that is going to happen, but that doesn't mean we don't have freewill.

 

[Dr. Gorgenflex]

Of course I believe in free will, I have total control of myself, and my actions and I do not doubt it for a second.

 

[Calhoun347]

Then i really don't see how that works out, It seems some sort of abstract circular logic. However if you really believe that (and i believe you do) then i suppose i can't really tell you that you're wrong at this point. Guess i'm done here.

How is it circular logic? The fact that I'm genetically programmed to believe I have free will, even if I technically don't, means what exactly?

The fact that you recognize that you have no free will, yet you maintain some form of illusion that you do, despite knowing that you don't.

 

[Sad Robot]

The fact that you recognize that you have no free will, yet you maintain some form of illusion that you do, despite knowing that you don't.

Yes. So? How does it make it any less true? Did you read the quote in my OP?

 

[Calhoun347]

The fact that you recognize that you have no free will, yet you maintain some form of illusion that you do, despite knowing that you don't.

Yes. So? How does it make it any less true? Did you read the quote in my OP?

If you know something to be true, (ex. You have no free will), how can you continue to maintain this illusion that you do?

With optical illusions where the image is obscured in what seems to be a random series of paint strokes, once you see the image, you can't go back and see the random strokes. why should this be any different?

 

[randomsix]

A funny thing. I think we have free will, sure. I don't recall anyone saying that I can't. Well, who says? You could try to order me, but I only decide to follow of my own volition. You could try to philosophize the proof to me, but philosophy could not make it an empyrical fact. You could say that god said so, but that is false. Not only does god not actively control us, but he goes out of his way not to be a bother sometimes. Free will is something you have until you decide to give it up. After then, I guess you don't have free will, sure.

The idea of free will doesn't get muddy until you ask yourself WHY you made those decisions. If you dig deep enough, you will see that you really didn't control the decision at all.

Doing something you want to doesn't mean that free will exists.

Many of those occasions, the answer to the "Why?" is "Why not?". There wasn't a rule, there wasn't a fence, and nobody asked me to jump through hoops. So why? Just 'cause.

*Shrug*

I dunno what to tell ya, man. Nobody said I couldn't. And if anyone did, nobody stopped me. And when I did, there was no punishment.

Read Sad Robot's quote of ElTigre right above your post. This is a good explanation.

The philosophy angle. Nah, I heard enough of that in Metaphyics. I think you're pushing yourselves too hard to make this point. The truth is, there's no benefit in denying free will. Every time you try and chuck it out the window, you realize something's missing because you had to amputate a real thing that you had once. (It was probably an elephant, if you'll pardon the metaphor.)

I agree that there is no benefit in denying it, but that doesn't make it right.

The second sentence is a false argument: I feel nothing missing, and even if I did, it wouldn't be free will because you can't feel it.

Also, like I said earlier, we may not have free will, but we might as well have it because no one has the capacity to analyze/know what influences their decisions before they make them.

And you have to push yourself to understand something that seems counter-intuitive.

 

[Sad Robot]

If you know something to be true, (ex. You have no free will), how can you continue to maintain this illusion that you do?

Because I'm genetically programmed to maintain that illusion?

With optical illusions where the image is obscured in what seems to be a random series of paint strokes, once you see the image, you can't go back and see the random strokes. why should this be any different?

Because when you see that image again, after a long time, you get fooled again. At least I have experienced this.

 

[Calhoun347]

If you know something to be true, (ex. You have no free will), how can you continue to maintain this illusion that you do?

Because I'm genetically programmed to maintain that illusion?

But how can you maintain this illusion, if you Break it by knowing the contrary to be a fact?

With optical illusions where the image is obscured in what seems to be a random series of paint strokes, once you see the image, you can't go back and see the random strokes. why should this be any different?

Because when you see that image again, after a long time, you get fooled again. At least I have experiences this.

That is true, But this non-control is constantly happening, so you would have no time to forget about it.

 

[katsa5]

Empiriciscm at its best. Who am I? What am I? A Meat-Bag. *which would make a great Game Tag, but that's not the point*
Free Will exists in the nature of choice. Humanity can choose to preserve or destroy, or a balance of both. They can choose to ignore some things and think on others. Look at the different ideas here in this very Forum? That formulation and the ability to stand by such, no matter how improbable, is what makes us unique by our on will to do so. Is it logical that a machine that was made exactly like another machine work exactly the same? (with respect to flaws, but that's another debate) But with a Will Free to All machines, it can act differently.
Now someone may be reading this and think 'she's full of crap' or 'that's true too' or even passing by it completely, or even something completely unexpected. Further proof of Free Will; nothing was programmed or no one told anyone to think like that. It was chosen.

 

[Sad Robot]

If you know something to be true, (ex. You have no free will), how can you continue to maintain this illusion that you do?

Because I'm genetically programmed to maintain that illusion?

But how can you maintain this illusion, if you Break it by knowing the contrary to be a fact?

With optical illusions where the image is obscured in what seems to be a random series of paint strokes, once you see the image, you can't go back and see the random strokes. why should this be any different?

Because when you see that image again, after a long time, you get fooled again. At least I have experiences this.

That is true, But this non-control is constantly happening, so you would have no time to forget about it.

I don't find maintaining said illusion voluntary. Nor is my assumption that my will is not free.