Poll: Gay Marriage

[fenrizz]

Meh, they want it for the tax-breaks. But whatever, who am I to say who should "get married" anyways. Its just a piece of paper.

Only thing I feel like saying to be honest is "The Fall of Rome."

The fall of Rome?

OT:
It should be legal.
After all, you do pride yourselves in being the land of the free...

History does tend to repeat itself, and all of the turmoil that was going on in Rome, gays were much more prominent. Back then, most people didn't think much of it though, unlike today.

I'm just saying I'm not really against it, but I don't really want to know either way if you are gay or not, and whether or not you're married to another person of the same sex.

Hold on, let me get this straight.
Are you saying that homosexuality caused the fall of the Roman empire?

To quote a friend:

I'm ok with homophobia, as long as it happens in the privacy of your own home.

 

[Ninja_X]

I think that all current marriages should be reduced to civil unions. All the same tax benefits apply, then the church decides who get's married or not. I say this because marriage is largly a religious idea. As such, automatically throwing homosexuals into a religious idea is bound to stir up trouble since almost all religions have anti-homosexual doctrine somewhere in their belief system and texts.

I have one thing which I am confused about, How is someone "born" gay??

If memory serves there is no way this is at all possible. If you believe in evolution, then it is survival of the fittest. Any genetic gene inspiring homosexuality would be fazed out immediately, due to the fact that a creature which cannot reproduce is automatically resigned to extinction. And since evolution takes millions of years to accomplish, then it is logical to assume that there were cavemen and cavewomen with the gay gene. Since they relied mostly on instinct they would have followed on their sexual urges, and promptly caused their own extinction. Some would say " but Semi, we have proof that animals follow homosexual urges" I just don't see the connection there. My dog will hump anything, even a human leg, it's not so much a matter of reproduction as it is a matter of brain power. Humans can immediately identify another human they want to have sex with, animals seem to hump anything they can mount.

And if you go for the church view, God hasn't created any homosexuals.

Personally, I think homosexuality is a matter of environment rather than being "born that way" We know that certain people raised in a certain environment will be drawn to certain things. Often these people may not like what they are drawn to, and desire to change the patterns in their life, but it never seems to work. i.e. the woman continually attracted to abusive males. I think homosexuality is like that, not a conscious choice, and an all together natural urge feeling, but is not actually developed at birth.

1st of all, marriage is NOT a religious thing.

2nd, evolution takes time to remove unwanted traits. Not saying weather or not I think they are born gay or not, just pointing out the flaw in your argument there.XD

How is marriage not a "religious thing"? Most marriage cermonies take place in churches, and have taken place in churches for thousands of years. Maybe other civilization's have come up with the idea of marriage all on their own, but for most of recorded, modern, history marriage has been resigned to the church.

As to the evolution timeline, I would agree with you there, except that when talking about the inability to reproduce, it takes exactly one generation to cause extinction, so evolution wouldn't have it's normal timeline to faze things out.

1st of all even people who are not religious can get married in a non religious ceremony. It isn't strictly religious, it never has been.

2nd gay women can reproduce.

I didn't say it was "strictly" a religious thing. I said it's associated so strongly with the church that it's considered church property. Imagine the word marriage, what do you think of? A church, a white gown, a guy in a tux, wedding bells. I am not saying that the churches claim is justified, but once you give something (almost exclusively) to a group of people, you're going to have a fight on your hands to get it back.

Gay women can reproduce, but only in recent times. With the evolution concept I am refering mostly to prehistoric people who would have been slaves to their baser instincts, and would not have simply slept with a man just to continue on their species, I don't think they would have been able to grasp that concept.

I know that in this country it is seen as a religious thing because there are allot of Christians here. But the FACT is marriage ISN'T religious property. I have every right to marry outside the church. The Church has no right to claim marriage as theirs. The right to bond together as a loving couple is something I hold dear to me. Something allot of people regardless of faith hold dear to them. Your faith does NOT determine your right to be happy. That bond is for any loving couple.

Gonna just let the evolution thing go, as I don't care either way.

I think we both have roughly the same idea. I didn't defend the church's claim to marriage, I only said it would be hard to get them to let go of it, after their longstanding history with the word "marriage" If you refer back to my original post I suggest the legal removal of the word marriage because it's not worth the fight with religious people. Instead, civil unions are put in place to give all people the same "rights". If that were to happen, how long would it be before churches allowed gay people to get "married". Not long I should think, given that there are already churches which do that very thing. I guess my point is, why get into a fistfight with the church, when you can get everything you want,and without everyone getting blood on their shirt.

I know you whereat defending it, sorry if I come off as harsh I tend to get pretty into these debates.

At any rate, I am unwilling to go that route just because that would require acknowledging that the church owns marriage, which is just something that I can't do because I believe firmly in the concept that marriage should be based on love and therefore is no ones property.

I'm stubborn that way.

 

[Semitendon]

I think that all current marriages should be reduced to civil unions. All the same tax benefits apply, then the church decides who get's married or not. I say this because marriage is largly a religious idea. As such, automatically throwing homosexuals into a religious idea is bound to stir up trouble since almost all religions have anti-homosexual doctrine somewhere in their belief system and texts.

I have one thing which I am confused about, How is someone "born" gay??

If memory serves there is no way this is at all possible. If you believe in evolution, then it is survival of the fittest. Any genetic gene inspiring homosexuality would be fazed out immediately, due to the fact that a creature which cannot reproduce is automatically resigned to extinction. And since evolution takes millions of years to accomplish, then it is logical to assume that there were cavemen and cavewomen with the gay gene. Since they relied mostly on instinct they would have followed on their sexual urges, and promptly caused their own extinction. Some would say " but Semi, we have proof that animals follow homosexual urges" I just don't see the connection there. My dog will hump anything, even a human leg, it's not so much a matter of reproduction as it is a matter of brain power. Humans can immediately identify another human they want to have sex with, animals seem to hump anything they can mount.

And if you go for the church view, God hasn't created any homosexuals.

Personally, I think homosexuality is a matter of environment rather than being "born that way" We know that certain people raised in a certain environment will be drawn to certain things. Often these people may not like what they are drawn to, and desire to change the patterns in their life, but it never seems to work. i.e. the woman continually attracted to abusive males. I think homosexuality is like that, not a conscious choice, and an all together natural urge feeling, but is not actually developed at birth.

1st of all, marriage is NOT a religious thing.

2nd, evolution takes time to remove unwanted traits. Not saying weather or not I think they are born gay or not, just pointing out the flaw in your argument there.XD

How is marriage not a "religious thing"? Most marriage cermonies take place in churches, and have taken place in churches for thousands of years. Maybe other civilization's have come up with the idea of marriage all on their own, but for most of recorded, modern, history marriage has been resigned to the church.

As to the evolution timeline, I would agree with you there, except that when talking about the inability to reproduce, it takes exactly one generation to cause extinction, so evolution wouldn't have it's normal timeline to faze things out.

1st of all even people who are not religious can get married in a non religious ceremony. It isn't strictly religious, it never has been.

2nd gay women can reproduce.

I didn't say it was "strictly" a religious thing. I said it's associated so strongly with the church that it's considered church property. Imagine the word marriage, what do you think of? A church, a white gown, a guy in a tux, wedding bells. I am not saying that the churches claim is justified, but once you give something (almost exclusively) to a group of people, you're going to have a fight on your hands to get it back.

Gay women can reproduce, but only in recent times. With the evolution concept I am refering mostly to prehistoric people who would have been slaves to their baser instincts, and would not have simply slept with a man just to continue on their species, I don't think they would have been able to grasp that concept.

I know that in this country it is seen as a religious thing because there are allot of Christians here. But the FACT is marriage ISN'T religious property. I have every right to marry outside the church. The Church has no right to claim marriage as theirs. The right to bond together as a loving couple is something I hold dear to me. Something allot of people regardless of faith hold dear to them. Your faith does NOT determine your right to be happy. That bond is for any loving couple.

Gonna just let the evolution thing go, as I don't care either way.

I think we both have roughly the same idea. I didn't defend the church's claim to marriage, I only said it would be hard to get them to let go of it, after their longstanding history with the word "marriage" If you refer back to my original post I suggest the legal removal of the word marriage because it's not worth the fight with religious people. Instead, civil unions are put in place to give all people the same "rights". If that were to happen, how long would it be before churches allowed gay people to get "married". Not long I should think, given that there are already churches which do that very thing. I guess my point is, why get into a fistfight with the church, when you can get everything you want,and without everyone getting blood on their shirt.

I know you whereat defending it, sorry if I come off as harsh I tend to get pretty into these debates.

At any rate, I am unwilling to go that route just because that would require acknowledging that the church owns marriage, which is just something that I can't do because I believe firmly in the concept that marriage should be based on love and therefore is no ones property.

I'm stubborn that way.

Fair enough, and no offense taken. I just enjoy a good debate.

 

[Arkhangelsk]

People should be able to marry whomever they want. Not allowing this is in my view, a violation of the individual rights. Individual rights = The right to do whatever one wishes as long as it doesn't violate another man's rights. By not letting homosexuals marry, they're violating their individual rights.

 

[Vacuous Mind]

The 19 people that voted illegal should truly be ashamed of themselves.

 

[CrashBang]

The fact that it is still illegal ANYWHERE is absolutely fucking awful!
The church insists that homosexuality is wrong. Well as OP said gays are born gay and they are no different from heteros. Same species and same DNA isn't it? The church is a terrible terrible thing (well, all religion is).
I fight for gay rights entirely and believe there should be nothing to stop 2 men or 2 women from expressing their eternal love for one another

 

[tehbeard]

I find it funny the US claims to be the land of the free and they still have issues with letting homosexuals get married.

 

[Erja_Perttu]

I, nor anyone I know, sees a problem with it. Personally, everyone has the right to fall in love with who they want to and do whatever they want to be happy together.

I think Gay Marriage is an oxymoron because religious groups are the ones who generally have a problem with gay relationships, so why you'd take steps be legally recognised by said group is something I don't understand, but if two men or two women wanted to proclaim themselves as bound o each other, then they should have every right to do so.

 

[Doug]

its legal in Denmark, so i dont see whats wrong with it.

Same here, sortof - in the UK, they are called civil unions instead of marriages, but in effect they are exactly the same.

 

[dallan262]

I would like to hear your stances and your points supporting your stances.

I am personally for It's legalization for the following reasons:

I believe Church and State should be sepparated.

The simple truth is- homosexuality is born not chosen. Just as I am naturally attracted to women, some men are naturally attracted to other men. I wouldn't want people to tell me I couldn't be with women, so I don't want to do the same to gays.

I believe that in a free country the majority should not be able to vote down the rights of a minority. That's how the oppression of racial minorities and women happened.


So, those are some of my arguments. Tell me yours. However, always remember

NO FLAMING

That's not how to resolve differences- it's how to irritate them.

I am certain this thread has probably been done before but I couldn't find it ANYWHERE using the search engine. So here we go.

ok i believe that gay is born not chosen but i have to dissagree with you saying its natural the very fact that people are against it is because its unnaturality afterall sex sole purpose is to make children and continue the species so sex with the same genitalia defeats the purpose therefore not natural.

other animals arnt gay most of those you hear about is to show dominance over the other

men are suppost to give not take its just the way it is

im not homophobic as i dont have an irrational fear of them plus i have gay friends doesnt mean im not allowed to disagree with what they do

also marriage i said no not because i dont thin gays should marry mainly because im straight and i hate marriage but so does my girlfriend so its all good

 

[Disaster Button]

People should be able to be with who they fall in love worth, without it being decided by the anybody else but them, so if they want to get married they should be allowed, regardless of gender or sexuality.

And I'm in Britain and I was so goddamn angry when I heard about what happened with Prop 8.

In my opinion the Church should have no say in what happens with stuff like this, even if they had any dredability left it, shouldn't be up to anybody except the couple whether they want to get married or not.

 

[Thaius]

The fact that it is still illegal ANYWHERE is absolutely fucking awful!
The church insists that homosexuality is wrong. Well as OP said gays are born gay and they are no different from heteros. Same species and same DNA isn't it? The church is a terrible terrible thing (well, all religion is).
I fight for gay rights entirely and believe there should be nothing to stop 2 men or 2 women from expressing their eternal love for one another

Okay, this I couldn't let go.

People are not born gay. There is no basis for it in evolutionary theory (in development centered around reproduction for continuation of a species, why would homosexuality, which produces no offspring, be mutated into someone?), and if you believe in creation, to Bible speaks out against homosexuality, so it would not be something created by God, but something corrupted by Satan. Either way, homosexuality is not biological: it is a choice.

And you are being completely intolerant of religion, and no offense, but usually when people are, it is out of ignorance. Some religions are horrible, yes, but not religion as a whole. Not at all.

 

[Epitome]

See I have a less common outlook on gay marrige, i dont believe marrige should be a state institution, if a couple want to register a civil partnership for tax calculation etc thats all that required, a state should not have the power to marry. But i also believe that you cant force the church to marry, I am a Roman Catholic and i have gay friends aswell. What they do has no bearing on how i look at them at all, but they do not have the right to demand to be allowed into a church and be married. The can argue that in the eyes of God all men aree mqual and such. See im also agnostic so my faith in the catholic church is more a hangover from birth and baptism than genuine faith in old doctrine. But the Catholic church survived so long on its old doctrine and that says no gay marrige. You cannot for a non government institution to accomodate your views because you feel it has a moral obligation to? If gay people wish to be married in a church then they should find/start a religion that will accomodate them. Just dont expect it to be endorsed by the pope?

 

[Agrael]

Gay marriage (in the Church - being blessed) - no.
Gay marriage (signing the papers and ta'duh!) - okidoki.

So I voted yes.

 

[Captain Blackout]

I started my own church. We are looking to eventually sue the state over gay marriage based on religious discrimination. How dare you tell me I can't marry the person God blessed through a Taoist minister.

 

[Faps]

In a country when you can get married to a total stranger while shit faced in Vegas you should be able to marry someone of the same sex who you love.

 

[Captain Blackout]

The fact that it is still illegal ANYWHERE is absolutely fucking awful!
The church insists that homosexuality is wrong. Well as OP said gays are born gay and they are no different from heteros. Same species and same DNA isn't it? The church is a terrible terrible thing (well, all religion is).
I fight for gay rights entirely and believe there should be nothing to stop 2 men or 2 women from expressing their eternal love for one another

Okay, this I couldn't let go.

People are not born gay. There is no basis for it in evolutionary theory (in development centered around reproduction for continuation of a species, why would homosexuality, which produces no offspring, be mutated into someone?), and if you believe in creation, to Bible speaks out against homosexuality, so it would not be something created by God, but something corrupted by Satan. Either way, homosexuality is not biological: it is a choice.

And you are being completely intolerant of religion, and no offense, but usually when people are, it is out of ignorance. Some religions are horrible, yes, but not religion as a whole. Not at all.

I did the math, the gay gene(s) exist.

 

[Semitendon]

I started my own church. We are looking to eventually sue the state over gay marriage based on religious discrimination. How dare you tell me I can't marry the person God blessed through a Taoist minister.

One other thing to anyone interested: I did the math, the gay gene(s) exists.

What "math" would that be?

FYI: see the debate about the gay gene between me and NinjaX before replying. ( pg 9 of this thread)

 

[vamp rocks]

well, i'm gay so im obviously for it... lol

people should be able to marry whomever they choose..

one of the arguments i have heard agaianst gay marriage is that people said that if gay marriage is allowed it will be taught in schools that gay marriage is legal. Well, yes, yes it will. And what's so bad about that? Isn't it appropriate that us, and our future kids are taught state law? And if that's in violation of anyone's religious rights, let's stop celebrating holidays like Martin Luther King Day and stop racial equality from being taught in our schools. Let's make blacks and whites drink from different water fountains again! After all, they're "different", kind of the same way that gays are "different" than straights?