Poll: Gender Identity

[Aramis Night]

Seems a Doctor would be required to make these determinations since gender is not a choice, but a biological property tied to our bodies development. Those of us who describe ourselves as cis-gendered seem to have accepted the findings of a medical professional in regard to our gender positions. I would hope that those that define themselves as trans have done similar homework before assigning themselves said definitions. There are many who are genuinely born with a brain that has been developed along the lines of one gender while the body developed into the other gender. I would hate to see the plight of those people marginalized by those who simply made a conscious choice to attempt to be the opposite of their biological gender out of some misguided idea that gender is a choice/social construct. The brains chemistry and structure should be the ultimate arbiters on this.

I have no issue with women who behave as men or men that behave as women. But I take issue with people co-opting the legitimate struggle of a group who are naturally at odds with their own bodies as a matter of biology on top of their dealings with a society that does little to make their positions easier.

 

[verdant monkai]

I clicked other because none of my categories are on the list.

I am perfectly willing to accept as a human being and friend, anyone who wishes to identify with whatever gender or sub gender they wish.

But as far as I am concerned there are two genders and a rare third type which is neither, meaning the individual has the option to choose or not to choose.

Male and Female and hermaphrodites (someone with malformed genitals).

In my opinion the idea of a male being trapped in a female body (or the reverse) is ridiculous, it goes against the natural order which created you as you are, and even religion where you are defying a deities will for you to be born as you are. I think the ability to accept yourself for who and what you are is far more impressive than surgery, that will cause you to become something which is neither male nor female. Unless you are already rather androgynous 99 times out of 100 the surgery will make you look like a cross dresser (in my opinion) and people will be able to spot you. I dont think being a woman in a mans body means you are a mistake. I think it means you are gay and should spend less on surgery and more time on finding a gay male to be with.

This is just my opinion and as I said, I accept it is just that! an opinion, and others may feel strongly and disagree with me. As I said the fact of who they are would not turn me against them I am willing to befriend anyone no matter what we disagree on. And if surgery will make you happy then thats whats going to happen, I am just an advocate of self acceptance.

Disclaimer I am drunk and waiting to go out for a birthday party, and am killing time on the escapist. This is my actual opinion tho.

 

[Something Amyss]

That's... completely different.

It's always completely different.

First, sexuality is independent of gender. I am first and foremost female.

Okay, that doesn't have anything to do with why you would choose a divisive label. Yes, sex and gender identity are different. So what? What has that got to do with the question at hand?

Second, people should be free to choose their own label. If someone identifies as female or male or intersex or whatever, I will respect that.

That also doesn't answer the question of why you would choose a divisive label, only that you are free to choose. Which I don't think anyone's contesting. You argued that the cis label was not productive and that it was divisive. Dividing people on sexuality works on the same level, by any apparent reasoning I can arrive at on your behalf. You've argued they're completely different, but not made a case for why or answered why you would actually choose to counterproductively and divisively label yourself. Now, is it your right? Absolutely. But that doesn't address anything of relevance here.

Unfortunately, society hasn't totally overlooked the differences between transgender and cisgender people yet.

Sure, once the prejudice has been forgotten, most likely that will happen soon after, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Should the labels go away?

It's just that, once the negative stigmas that go along with being trans are gone, I see no harm in the label and some degree of benefit. Just like sexuality. Just because nobody uses the word "gay" as a slur anymore doesn't mean it won't have a certain usefulness. For one thing, it's a lot easier to find a partner of the right sexuality if you label that sexuality. Similarly, transfolk would be able to receive better and more accurate care.

 

[DarkRawen]

Refuse to answer the poll. My apologies if that makes it inappropriate for me to comment (I generally categorize gender as 'personal information' and I'm not big on putting personal info on surveys on the internet when I can avoid it). Side question though:

Any thoughts as to why the trans community is overwhelmingly (at least as far as public image is concerned) trans female as opposed to trans male? The standard story suggests that 'female' is a very problematic identity and is in the subordinate position to the 'male' identity. Rationally, it would seem to follow that people would want to be recognized as a member of the dominant identity, but that doesn't seem to be how it works out in practice. (Jerry Seinfeld voice) What's the deal with that?

Hm, I have thought about that before. I can easily enough say that I don't identify as male because it's the "dominant identity", I just do. It gives me no benefit to identify as male, all it does is complicate a whole lot of things that I don't really care about, but really, I'm not one for letting gender be the main point of my identity.

However, I would think that part of it is that it's "easier" to be a trans man without actually saying you are one or even admitting that to yourself. I went for almost 19 years never even considering it, because I could dress, act and identify as a male without anything hindering it. I can wear a suit if I want to, I can refuse to wear makeup if I feel like it, and most media still have the male character for someone to identify with. Basically, it's easier to be the tomboy without anyone questioning it than it is to be a feminine man.

Now, this is just me thinking out loud, of course. There might be some biological reason for why there's such a difference, or some other sociological or psychological aspect of it. However, if a trans man wants to act like a man without letting anyone know, it's often easier -though I can't pass for a guy at all- or at least less looked down upon.

Also, I think part of the reason is that it might be a bit more difficult to figure out. You usually don't ask yourself why you want to go without makeup or have short hair and a shirt, after all, you're likelier to question why you feel like wearing a skirt or makeup.

 

[Something Amyss]

But as far as I am concerned there are two genders and a rare third type which is neither, meaning the individual has the option to choose or not to choose.

And as far as some are concerned, the Earth is flat. You can have your own definitions, but they're meaningless.

In my opinion the idea of a male being trapped in a female body (or the reverse) is ridiculous, it goes against the natural order which created you as you are, and even religion where you are defying a deities will for you to be born as you are.

It's unnatural because of supernatural claims. That makes no sense. Do you feel the same way about gays?

Unless you are already rather androgynous 99 times out of 100 the surgery will make you look like a cross dresser (in my opinion) and people will be able to spot you.

Yeah, that doesn't bear out in reality any more than the flat Earth. To borrow a line from Trans America: "We walk among you."

 

[verdant monkai]

But as far as I am concerned there are two genders and a rare third type which is neither, meaning the individual has the option to choose or not to choose.

And as far as some are concerned, the Earth is flat. You can have your own definitions, but they're meaningless.

In my opinion the idea of a male being trapped in a female body (or the reverse) is ridiculous, it goes against the natural order which created you as you are, and even religion where you are defying a deities will for you to be born as you are.

It's unnatural because of supernatural claims. That makes no sense. Do you feel the same way about gays?

Unless you are already rather androgynous 99 times out of 100 the surgery will make you look like a cross dresser (in my opinion) and people will be able to spot you.

Yeah, that doesn't bear out in reality any more than the flat Earth. To borrow a line from Trans America: "We walk among you."

I'm just getting started Zach just you wait. Are we friends yet? can I add you??

 

[Something Amyss]

Refuse to answer the poll. My apologies if that makes it inappropriate for me to comment (I generally categorize gender as 'personal information' and I'm not big on putting personal info on surveys on the internet when I can avoid it). Side question though:

Any thoughts as to why the trans community is overwhelmingly (at least as far as public image is concerned) trans female as opposed to trans male? The standard story suggests that 'female' is a very problematic identity and is in the subordinate position to the 'male' identity. Rationally, it would seem to follow that people would want to be recognized as a member of the dominant identity, but that doesn't seem to be how it works out in practice. (Jerry Seinfeld voice) What's the deal with that?

It's biologically easier to make a transwoman than a transman.

There's also the issue that people don't choose what to identify as. Even if we accept the premise that male privilege is specifically desirable, We'[re talking about some fairly significant changes to go through.

However, I would think that part of it is that it's "easier" to be a trans man without actually saying you are one or even admitting that to yourself. I went for almost 19 years never even considering it, because I could dress, act and identify as a male without anything hindering it. I can wear a suit if I want to, I can refuse to wear makeup if I feel like it, and most media still have the male character for someone to identify with. Basically, it's easier to be the tomboy without anyone questioning it than it is to be a feminine man.

There is also that.

 

[Something Amyss]

^This bloke, seriously I am not even bothered.

Not a bloke, but if you can't answer, why respond?

 

[Jark212]

I had to Google what cis meant but i guess that's what I am...

Man these new terms are confusing...

 

[Evil Moo]

...gender is what your mind is...

Which is my point. I feel like my mind doesn't have any relation to gender or sex (besides the obvious biological processes that formed it as it is being influenced by my being physically male, which is again biology not gender identity). I literally have no concept of gender that isn't either the biological or the cultural. Would I feel out of place in a female body? Hard to say for sure, but I don't see why I would from a purely identity based stand-point (though I would likely resent some of the anatomy being in the way). Do I feel out of place in my current body? Not especially, from a gender point of view, though I would quite happily be rid of any gender from myself, biological or otherwise. The whole thing seems like too much hassle and I'd rather not be involved. But as things are, I'll just carry on as is until I can become a brain in a jar.

I feel like dysphoria would be caused by conflicting elements of the biological sex (be it outward physical features, or internal processes like hormones or whatever else is going on in there) pushing someone into an uncomfortable area of the blurred grey space between the two 'normal' sexes, and part of the body is saying one thing while others are contradicting it. There is no elusive internal identity there, just biological processes, chemicals and outward physical manifestations of them. Now maybe I'm just ignorant of what's really going on (almost certainly in fact, given that I'm far too lazy to do proper research on this) and there is some identity separate from biological sex, in which case, I either don't have one, or it only manifests itself in cases of conflict (which doesn't make sense from the way people talk about gender identity as if it is something that everyone has in some vaguely tangible form).

I hope my rambling rationalisations are not offensive, and I certainly don't intend to imply that such issues don't exist or aren't potentially serious. I just dislike not being able to properly understand things like this.

Captcha: 'in a box' dammit Captcha, am I really that isolated?

 

[DarkRawen]

I clicked other because none of my categories are on the list.

I am perfectly willing to accept as a human being and friend, anyone who wishes to identify with whatever gender or sub gender they wish.

But as far as I am concerned there are two genders and a rare third type which is neither, meaning the individual has the option to choose or not to choose.

Male and Female and hermaphrodites (someone with malformed genitals).

In my opinion the idea of a male being trapped in a female body (or the reverse) is ridiculous, it goes against the natural order which created you as you are, and even religion where you are defying a deities will for you to be born as you are. I think the ability to accept yourself for who and what you are is far more impressive than surgery, that will cause you to become something which is neither male nor female. Unless you are already rather androgynous 99 times out of 100 the surgery will make you look like a cross dresser (in my opinion) and people will be able to spot you. I dont think being a woman in a mans body means you are a mistake. I think it means you are gay and should spend less on surgery and more time on finding a gay male to be with.

This is just my opinion and as I said, I accept it is just that! an opinion, and others may feel strongly and disagree with me. As I said the fact of who they are would not turn me against them I am willing to befriend anyone no matter what we disagree on. And if surgery will make you happy then thats whats going to happen, I am just an advocate of self acceptance.

Disclaimer I am drunk and waiting to go out for a birthday party, and am killing time on the escapist. This is my actual opinion tho.

Well, I, obviously, disagree.

Firstly, who you want to have sex with doesn't define your gender identity. :/ Secondly, it's not a confidence issue, and far from every trans gendered person goes through an operation. I'd say more, but really, the point is; that's your opinion, and while you have the right to have that opinion, it does sound like you've not tried to view it from anyone else's perspective, and that makes me sadz (Not really, but lets roll with that)

Refuse to answer the poll. My apologies if that makes it inappropriate for me to comment (I generally categorize gender as 'personal information' and I'm not big on putting personal info on surveys on the internet when I can avoid it). Side question though:

Any thoughts as to why the trans community is overwhelmingly (at least as far as public image is concerned) trans female as opposed to trans male? The standard story suggests that 'female' is a very problematic identity and is in the subordinate position to the 'male' identity. Rationally, it would seem to follow that people would want to be recognized as a member of the dominant identity, but that doesn't seem to be how it works out in practice. (Jerry Seinfeld voice) What's the deal with that?

It's biologically easier to make a transwoman than a transman.

There's also the issue that people don't choose what to identify as. Even if we accept the premise that male privilege is specifically desirable, We'[re talking about some fairly significant changes to go through.

However, I would think that part of it is that it's "easier" to be a trans man without actually saying you are one or even admitting that to yourself. I went for almost 19 years never even considering it, because I could dress, act and identify as a male without anything hindering it. I can wear a suit if I want to, I can refuse to wear makeup if I feel like it, and most media still have the male character for someone to identify with. Basically, it's easier to be the tomboy without anyone questioning it than it is to be a feminine man.

There is also that.

Also, trans males have a chance of going bald, that's some scary stuff >_>

More seriously, it might be the family I was raised in, or the country, or the society, or whatever, but the reason I went on for so long without realizing was that I really didn't know about the "male" privilege as a thing before I started hearing about it outside the people I spoke with. I've had men who wash and cook and women who builds and drive trucks and pay the bills around me for too long, I suppose. Even so, I've acted as a guy for as long as I can remember, and even as a child I was happier when I was mistaken for a guy.

Basically, I agree with the "It's not a choice. It's just how it is," thing. Not to mention, identifying as anything that's not your physical sex kinda removes most privileges. :/

 

[Something Amyss]

Would I feel out of place in a female body?

I mean, you could find out through HRT. If you have no sense of internal identity, then that would do nothing. But if not, it would have the impact that being trans has on...well, trans people.

I wouldn't recommend this, but it's possible to know without "having a female body." I'd also note we tend as humans not to be aware of things until something's wrong.

I feel like dysphoria would be caused by conflicting elements of the biological sex (be it outward physical features, or internal processes like hormones or whatever else is going on in there) pushing someone into an uncomfortable area of the blurred grey space between the two 'normal' sexes, and part of the body is saying one thing while others are contradicting it.

Well, no. The hormones (and I'm not sure what your other factors are) are in agreement with the body. This is why hormone replacement therapy has a stabilising effect on the person suffering from dysphoria. Even before any secondary sexual characteristics show up.

And since there are actual "in between" people, it makes no sense to conflate them with people suffering from gender dysphoria.

 

[Drake the Dragonheart]

I was also told I'm "not a real girl" because I wax instead of shaving. Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard, but there you go.

I envy you.

"Do you think we'll ever walk on the sun? I know it's really hot but what if they like, go in the winter when it's only like 30 degrees?"

Yahoo answers makes me weep for humanity.

I was also told I'm "not a real girl" because I wax instead of shaving. Possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard, but there you go.

Umm...

Seriously?

I mean, that'd be like someone telling me I'm "not a real man" for shaving my face with disposable razors instead of the ones where you change out the blades.

Please tell me you asked the numbskull in question to explain themselves.

Wait, what? You're not using a straight razor? And you call yourself a man!

Hey wait a second, I use an electric razor. What does that mean for me?

You're a... fembot? I dunno man, this seems kind of silly to me.

What?!? Shaving with an electric razor is the manliest way to shave! I will have none of this hooliganism!

 

[Evil Moo]

Would I feel out of place in a female body?

I mean, you could find out through HRT. If you have no sense of internal identity, then that would do nothing. But if not, it would have the impact that being trans has on...well, trans people.

I wouldn't recommend this, but it's possible to know without "having a female body." I'd also note we tend as humans not to be aware of things until something's wrong.

While I am somewhat tempted to put this to the test ("For science!" and all that), something as drastic as HRT seems like it would be at least a little traumatic on the system regardless. I think experimenting on myself is a little beyond the line I'm willing to cross to satisfy my curiosity. Hmmm... I wonder if hormone removal therapy is a thing... Would probably break some vital system I'm sure...

I feel like dysphoria would be caused by conflicting elements of the biological sex (be it outward physical features, or internal processes like hormones or whatever else is going on in there) pushing someone into an uncomfortable area of the blurred grey space between the two 'normal' sexes, and part of the body is saying one thing while others are contradicting it.

Well, no. The hormones (and I'm not sure what your other factors are) are in agreement with the body. This is why hormone replacement therapy has a stabilising effect on the person suffering from dysphoria. Even before any secondary sexual characteristics show up.

And since there are actual "in between" people, it makes no sense to conflate them with people suffering from gender dysphoria.

My ignorance in biology limits my knowledge of what other factors there are. Really, there, I would be referring to subtle interactions between internal systems like hormones and say, genetics/epigenetics for example. Factors that we might not have even discovered yet as well. But yeah, that's mostly speculation for the sake of my own rationalisation.

To further rationalise, hormone replacement would presumably work because part(s) of the body are expecting hormones that they aren't getting. Again I have very little idea what I'm talking about so I'm probably talking rubbish.

Perhaps it is more the terminology I disagree with, 'identity' and 'what I identify as' being framed very much as a conscious process rather than an underlying biological process which might cause such feelings to become prominent. Someone made the parallel between this subject and phantom limbs in a similar thread here a while ago, which makes more sense to me. That would be someone's body not recognising that a limb is not present, rather than the individual identifying as someone with whatever limb they don't have, which seems odd. The conditions are probably too different to compare like this, but oh well.

Perhaps there are different degrees of 'in betweenness' that affect people in different ways? *shrug*

 

[Canadamus Prime]

"cisgendered" what the fuck does that mean? *looks it up* Oh. I'm never EVER going to use that term. I am male, I was born male, and I identify as male.

 

[Nimcha]

I refer to myself as 'female'. I do not feel the need to specifically state I am not trans. I feel the cis label is counter-productive since it only further devides the people who do itendify as trans from the rest of the world.

A friend of mine identifies as female too, and only discloses the fact or her being transitioned to people she chooses herself. I do not feel there is inherently any difference between my gender identity and hers, so that is why I do not want to identify as 'cis'.

Labels do exist for a reason. Some things are simply objective, and even if your friend doesn't like the descriptor "trans", she still falls under it. The biggest problem I have with labels is that they're too often misused, not thorough enough, or rejected because "labels are bad because reasons." Its an objective thing, and while having an objection with the label itself is fair, being opposed to labels in general is counter-productive, illogical.

Good thing that I didn't say any of that then! Labels are very useful indeed. I do actually, as you say, have an objection to the cis label itself. I've literally said that. You're arguing a strawman here, we pretty much agree on labels in general.