Poll: Girls Don't Like Assholes.

[Panzer_God]

Women are a hivemind again?

Joking aside, nobody knows what women want, because women are individuals too.

There you go, being rational again. Don't you know the internet hates that? It's like our Kryptonite.

I'm sorry.

I'll be sure to froth at the mouth with unnecessary rage next time

But that's my gimmick! What will I do then?

 

[Smeatza]

And so you've chosen to act like all the people who never tried to help you, and not like your Grandma.

So basically "people were a dick to me when I was in your situation so I have the right to be a dick to you."

You say it yourself "I've hit rock bottom then I got the fuck over it." You had to reach rock bottom before you changed your outlook and did something about it. So why be so callous and cruel towards those who are still on their way to rock bottom.

He didn't say anything of the sort. He's actually attempting to HELP the person he's talking to. That person, BTW, is taking the "OH WOE IS ME DON'T TELL ME THERE ARE SOLUTIONS I'M TIRED OF PEOPLE TRYING TO HELP ME FUCK THE WORLD" tack, and merits a dose of tough reality. There's nothing remotely callous or cruel about it.

When I was in my early 20's and mired deep in my self-pitying, misanthropic/misogynistic streak, I would have been well served by a few more people telling me to get the fuck over myself. It wasn't until a few actually did that I started cluing in to the reality that a significant percentage of the problem was stemming from me and my shitty outlook.

I read the conversation leading up to it and his response seems antagonistic and emotive.

Yes there are some people out there who are too busy feeling sorry for themselves to improve their lives.

There are also people out there who accept their flaws and would like to change their lives but are crippled by fear and a lack of confidence, and being a douche towards those people is not going to help.

I've fallen in the hole, I know what keeps you down there, and what gets you out. Whining, worrying and moping keep you down there, telling yourself that you aren't worth it keeps you down there. Hiding from everything because you're afraid of rejection keeps you down there.

I'm callous because I know how they feel, I'm mean because it gets my point across. If someone says "Hey, I'm stuck, can you help?" I'll give them everything I can. When people would rather stay in the hole, then I say fuck 'em and walk away. Maybe I could talk to them and politely explain the way out of the hole, but I don't have the time to help people that don't want help. I'd rather help the people that need it.

That's the same train of thought that causes people to discriminate against the clinically depressed.
Perhaps it is the right thing to do for those who are genuinely feeling sorry for themselves, but for many people that is not the case.
You think that it's the way your advice is recieved that's wrong, where in reality your advice is substandard.

Their problem is they lack the confidence, social know how etc. to find and obtain a suitable mate. Your answer to this is "find the confidence, social know how etc. to find and obtain a suitable mate."

It's litterally as constructive as saying "get over it."

Spoiler: The right way to go about it

But here's the thing, nobody thinks less of you for missing the shots you don't take. Everything thinks you're pathetic if you miss the shot that everyone else got.

How old are you? *checks profile* Ok, so you're my age. That being the case, it really shouldn't be that way any more. If the people you're spending time with still think that way, you need to find new friends dude. Or maybe you just haven't giving the whole dating thing a shot since you were younger, at a time when these things did hold true? Pure speculation of course, and I could be totally wrong.

Honestly, I'm sick to death of being called a coward for being afraid of rejection. Rejection is a great amount of shame, not to mention mental "pain" for want of a less emo term.

Only if you let it be, or if you have unrealistic expectations, say, only approaching girls you think are "prefect" or you have a massive crush on, thereby allowing the stakes to get way too high. As for the pain thing, yes it hurts, yes it's a bit embarrassing, yes it gets easier with experience. Trust me. I may be a girl, but I figured out a long time ago that waiting for a guy to make the first move is just a waste of your time. Also, I'm bi and there are obviously no "rules" when it comes to asking out someone of your own gender. My point being, I've been rejected before. Many, many times. So have most people, even the ones who seem really confident. It's getting used to it and not letting it upset you too much that are key.

Rejection means that yet again, I fail at simply being human.

Ok, now you're just being silly. It doesn't mean that at all. That you think that way indicates that you have some serious problems with your self worth, and you do imply that you've had some bad experiences so maybe it's perfectly understandable. My advice (not that you're asking), again from personal experience, would be that you need to work on liking yourself before you start looking for other people to like you romantically.

And y'know what? I'm sick to death of being told to get more self confidence by the same world that spent the first part of my life telling me I'm worthless.

The world isn't a homogeneous thing that's out to get you. I appreciate that you may have had some shitty experiences in your life so far, but that most certainly doesn't mean that everyone thinks you're "worthless" or that things will never change. Hard to believe, I know, but at the moment you've got a pretty unhealthy way of thinking going on.

But most of all? I'm sick to death of people thinking there's an answer. The only answers are yes or no. Some of get one, some of us get the other, and some of us will always get the latter. I really wish I could do something about it, but I can't magic myself into something worthy of the title, "human" can I? So kindly stop calling me a coward, or an emo, just for realising some kind of reality outside of cliches and rom coms.

Come now, this really is over dramatic. You are "human" and you know it. Once again, you can't dismiss all future experiences based on the ones you've had so far, even if they've been awful. That's no way to live your life. You can get help if you want it, you can change your outlook. It might be difficult, but it can be done.

Sorry if I'm being intrusive, just trying to help.

You'll notice that Eamar essentially said the same thing as you except for they weren't a dick about it. And so the overall message is much different.

Your message - Get over it
Eamar's message - It's mainly the way you're looking at things that's the problem.

So please stop trying to play it off like you're taking some morale stance. The fact of the matter is your callousness and cold-heartedness are either because you have a distinct lack of empathy, or you despise those that represent that part of you that you once despised.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

I pretty much agree.

Most of the so-called "nice guys" have no confidence and no clue how to talk to women. THAT is their problem.

However, I disagree with you on one point. A lot of women DO date assholes. At least, women in their teens and 20s often do. Part of the reason for that? Assholes generally do have confidence. Sad but true. So the whiners are half-right.

Confidence is a big plus; its sexy, it means you're more likely to initiate conversation and get the girl in the first place, it shows you'll stand up for her, it makes you seem more exciting, etc etc etc.

My life has improved tenfold in almost every way (not just dating) since I found confidence in myself. Even if you can fake confidence, sometimes that's enough.

 

[Phasmal]

snip

I know it can just get a little bit upsetting I feel like I'm cursed sometimes lol.

Oh I know that feel, bro (sis, I guess?) It'll get better

Yeah, I've gotten that too. It's cause I used to be `one of the guys`.
Dudes think being friend-zoned is so bad, try being bro-zoned, lol.

 

[nuba km]

Well I don't think girls are attracted to ass holes I merely think they are attracted to good looking men, which dent to be more athletic, and they (at least form what I have observed) dent to grow up in social groups which have what most people would call dickish behaviour. They are most likely friendly in many ways but at the end of the day they most likely have many traits which takes a outsider to see how mean they are.

 

[Eamar]

snip

I know it can just get a little bit upsetting I feel like I'm cursed sometimes lol.

Oh I know that feel, bro (sis, I guess?) It'll get better

Yeah, I've gotten that too. It's cause I used to be `one of the guys`.
Dudes think being friend-zoned is so bad, try being bro-zoned, lol.

Oh yes, so much this. I'm still "one of the guys," I just found a different guy who wasn't my bro. But seriously, my best friend is a dude and, though it makes me feel all icky to remember it now, I fancied the pants off him when we first met. It sucked. All better now, thank god, since we would have been terrible as a couple. We very much have a bromance, not a romance

But anyway, yeah that wasn't the only time it happened. I still strongly stand by my belief that the vast majority of this is about basic chemical attraction and most of the time the guys in question wouldn't have been into me regardless of how they knew me though.

EDIT: It's even worse when most of your guy mates think you're a lesbian (yes, this happened to me), so even if they did like you they assume you're not available >.<

 

[Phasmal]

But anyway, yeah that wasn't the only time it happened. I still strongly stand by my belief that the vast majority of this is about basic chemical attraction and most of the time the guys in question wouldn't have been into me regardless of how they knew me though.

Yeah, I think it usually comes with growing up- you learn that some people are just not gonna be into you and there are some people you just wont be into, no matter how nice they try and be.

It did provide some funny moments, though.

Dude-friend: I dont know any girls!
Me: I'm a girl.
Him (irritated): Proper girls!

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I read the conversation leading up to it and his response seems antagonistic and emotive.

Yes there are some people out there who are too busy feeling sorry for themselves to improve their lives.

There are also people out there who accept their flaws and would like to change their lives but are crippled by fear and a lack of confidence, and being a douche towards those people is not going to help.

You and I have a very different take on the post that provoked that response. I wasn't as sharp with him as Panzer was, but I was significantly less gentle than Eamar. I see someone who is wallowing, and petulantly lashing out at people who are trying to help them. Compassion can take many forms. It can be a gentle word or a soft hand on the shoulder. Or it can be refusing to enable someone's spiral of circular logic and self-loathing.

Hearing people tell me I was wonderful did NOT HELP ME when I was depressed and hated myself and hated women. Finally recognizing that I was turning into a HUGE asshole helped. Recognizing that my bitterness and depression had become its own problem helped.

So please stop trying to play it off like you're taking some morale stance. The fact of the matter is your callousness and cold-heartedness are either because you have a distinct lack of empathy, or you despise those that represent that part of you that you once despised.

Callousness and cold-heartedness? Are we perhaps being a tad melodramatic? He is being neither. He is being BLUNT. He's employing the lead boot instead of the velvet glove. That does not mean he "lacks empathy". It means he believes a different kind of motivation is called for in this case, due to his own experiences. The one taking a moral (and, I might add, condemnatory) stance here is you. You're also engaging in some pretty high handed name calling, and might want to tone it down. The tone of discussion in here is actually fairly civil. There's absolutely no need to go on the attack. I can see you think Doclector needs a gentle touch and understanding ear right now, and I respect that, but I also respectfully disagree. That Doctlector is actively stating that he is "sick to death" of well meaning advice indicates to me he's past the sympathy stage and needs a good smack. Don't we ALL need a good smack now and then?

 

[Eamar]

Yeah, I think it usually comes with growing up- you learn that some people are just not gonna be into you and there are some people you just wont be into, no matter how nice they try and be.

Definitely.

It did provide some funny moments, though.

Dude-friend: I dont know any girls!
Me: I'm a girl.
Him (irritated): Proper girls!

Hahahaha yes. My friends call me a "manly man"

We were talking recently about who'd be which stereotypical character in the event of a zombie apocalypse. Someone asked who'd be "the girl" to which I responded along the lines of "well... I am a girl, so..." The response? "Yeah, but... not really." Charming.

 

[Panzer_God]

I've fallen in the hole, I know what keeps you down there, and what gets you out. Whining, worrying and moping keep you down there, telling yourself that you aren't worth it keeps you down there. Hiding from everything because you're afraid of rejection keeps you down there.

I'm callous because I know how they feel, I'm mean because it gets my point across. If someone says "Hey, I'm stuck, can you help?" I'll give them everything I can. When people would rather stay in the hole, then I say fuck 'em and walk away. Maybe I could talk to them and politely explain the way out of the hole, but I don't have the time to help people that don't want help. I'd rather help the people that need it.

That's the same train of thought that causes people to discriminate against the clinically depressed.
Perhaps it is the right thing to do for those who are genuinely feeling sorry for themselves, but for many people that is not the case.
You think that it's the way your advice is recieved that's wrong, where in reality your advice is substandard.

Their problem is they lack the confidence, social know how etc. to find and obtain a suitable mate. Your answer to this is "find the confidence, social know how etc. to find and obtain a suitable mate."

It's literally as constructive as saying "get over it."

It's been a while since anyone has accused me of discriminating against the clinically depressed, since until last year I was heavily medicated for depression and anger management issues. I was clinically depressed for most of my formative years, and do you know how I got over it? Neither do I, I just did. People told me to man the fuck up, and once I pulled my head out of my ass, I manned the fuck up and suddenly my problems went away. My advice isn't substandard, nor is it misunderstood, it's the most direct way of giving the advice to the people I am directing it to. Basically I'm saying exactly what Eamar did, and I respect him for having the patience to do it the long way. I've gone to six therapists, three psychologists (psychiatrists? I don't remember which) and in my experience, all of their advice boils down to telling someone to get over it, with differing levels of bullshit in between. Eamar told him that his outlook was what was causing the problem, what he didn't mention was the solution. Why didn't he mention it? Because the solution is to get the fuck over yourself and deal with it. I just skipped straight past the boring part.

So please stop trying to play it off like you're taking some morale stance. The fact of the matter is your callousness and cold-heartedness are either because you have a distinct lack of empathy, or you despise those that represent that part of you that you once despised.

Wait, wait, wait. When did I claim to be taking a moral stance? My entire stance in this thread has been telling people to get over themselves. Where we are conflicting is in that you don't believe it's a legitimate stance and I do, but I never claimed that it was a moral one. Although, your theories on my reasons for being callous are both true. I am a sociopath, so empathy has never been my strong point. I'm a sociopath who hates anything that reminds me of the point in time where I cried myself to sleep at night. I hates the people who have the same problem that I did, but without the strength and courage to do what I did to change it.

 

[Panzer_God]

I read the conversation leading up to it and his response seems antagonistic and emotive.

Yes there are some people out there who are too busy feeling sorry for themselves to improve their lives.

There are also people out there who accept their flaws and would like to change their lives but are crippled by fear and a lack of confidence, and being a douche towards those people is not going to help.

You and I have a very different take on the post that provoked that response. I wasn't as sharp with him as Panzer was, but I was significantly less gentle than Eamar. I see someone who is wallowing, and petulantly lashing out at people who are trying to help them. Compassion can take many forms. It can be a gentle word or a soft hand on the shoulder. Or it can be refusing to enable someone's spiral of circular logic and self-loathing.

Hearing people tell me I was wonderful did NOT HELP ME when I was depressed and hated myself and hated women. Finally recognizing that I was turning into a HUGE asshole helped. Recognizing that my bitterness and depression had become its own problem helped.

So please stop trying to play it off like you're taking some morale stance. The fact of the matter is your callousness and cold-heartedness are either because you have a distinct lack of empathy, or you despise those that represent that part of you that you once despised.

Callousness and cold-heartedness? Are we perhaps being a tad melodramatic? He is being neither. He is being BLUNT. He's employing the lead boot instead of the velvet glove. That does not mean he "lacks empathy". It means he believes a different kind of motivation is called for in this case, due to his own experiences. The one taking a moral (and, I might add, condemnatory) stance here is you. You're also engaging in some pretty high handed name calling, and might want to tone it down. The tone of discussion in here is actually fairly civil. There's absolutely no need to go on the attack. I can see you think Doclector needs a gentle touch and understanding ear right now, and I respect that, but I also respectfully disagree. That Doctlector is actively stating that he is "sick to death" of well meaning advice indicates to me he's past the sympathy stage and needs a good smack. Don't we ALL need a good smack now and then?

You know, I really need to learn how to deal with attacks like this. My response is normally to pretend that they're right and then ignore them. If he wants to think I'm callous and cold-hearted, if he wants to think I'm abusing whiny people to hide flaws inside of myself, then I'll let him. It's not worth arguing.

 

[Lyri]

*snip*

What the hell is wrong with people and why do posts like these keep cropping up all over The Escapist.
I didn't realise we're a sub forum of E-Harmony right now, when did this change happen?

Women are not some alternate species of Human that are so mystical to understand, they're just people. If you try acting like a woman is a person then you'll probably get more ladies like that and if you have to ask why someone isn't dating you? Well she's probably just not attracted to you.
Confidence or not won't change your sex appeal to her unless she was attracted to you in the first place.

It's really quite sad we have to go over this shit time and time again.

 

[Eamar]

Eamar told him that his outlook was what was causing the problem, what he didn't mention was the solution. Why didn't he mention it? Because the solution is to get the fuck over yourself and deal with it.

I'm a she, but I won't hold that against you

And to be fair, I was hoping to ease Doclector into some sort of conversation and tease out some relevant information (didn't want to go in all guns blazing if there was some seriously bad shit that had recently happened or something). I would have got to the "get over it" part eventually, though probably not in those words.

I think we're all just working from our own experiences here. You're doing what you found helpful for you, I'm starting off gently because that helps me (I also have experience of mental health problems). If Doclector want to take any advice he has a variety of approaches to choose from. Ball's in his court now.

 

[Eamar]

*snip*

What the hell is wrong with people and why do posts like these keep cropping up all over The Escapist.
I didn't realise we're a sub forum of E-Harmony right now, when did this change happen?

Women are not some alternate species of Human that are so mystical to understand, they're just people. If you try acting like a woman is a person then you'll probably get more ladies like that and if you have to ask why someone isn't dating you? Well she's probably just not attracted to you.
Confidence or not won't change your sex appeal to her unless she was attracted to you in the first place.

It's really quite sad we have to go over this shit time and time again.

Another person who didn't read the whole OP, I see. Hint: he agrees with you.

 

[370999]

snip.

It isn't a relationship thread until Doclector whines about how he is the most ugly and unattractive person in existence and the world is conspiring against him.

I'm a girl, and I hate assholes... though I suppose there are (stupid) women who do...

But you're crazy, I mean it's in your name, that you are the 17th model of the insane female!

Hey, I may be crazy, but I do have standards...

Girlish Crazy standards?

 

[hooksashands]

The "assholes have confidence" thing is starting to make my head hurt. In reality, assholes have very little confidence; it's why they're assholes in the first place. What they DO have is a sort of perfected arrogance that SEEMS like confidence but is actually low self-esteem with chainmail on. It's desperation, not bravado that finally makes them talk to strangers. And not all girls like that aggressiveness either. So buck up, shy guys. You're still in the game.

Source: I am an asshole.

 

[Phlakes]

Generalizations: The Thread.

Anyway, yes, you're right about the confidence thing, just as you would be if you said bugs were attracted to light. But the rest is barely even an argument.

 

[BlueMage]

7 pages is a great deal to go through, so if this has been mentioned, I apologise.

Women don't "like" arseholes, they're simply drawn to mate with them. Why? Arseholes tend to exhibit far more masculine traits than non-arseholes (the so-called nice-guys) and when a woman is looking to produce strong, healthy offspring, she wants a man, not a boy dressed as one.

Of course, most arseholes are just boys incredibly well-dressed as men, hence why, while she might get pregnant to him, she's unlikely to stay with him. That's where the nice-guy comes in. He's likely to a) be a better provider in an absolute sense (better earning power) and b) less likely to cheat on her (fewer opportunities and offers respectively). And women are perfectly content to trade sexual favours for material favours ("I suck you, you succor me" to put it oh-so-eloquently)

This all comes back to psychology, and evolutionary psychology at that. If you're unable to get yourself a woman, either content yourself to wait until you're thirty (they'll come running. Granted, they'll probably have a kid or two, but hey, them's the breaks) OR educate yourself on what YOU ARE NOT DOING CORRECTLY TO ATTRACT WOMEN, learn from your mistakes, and get out there tiger. It comes down to confidence (as OP correctly states) but genuine confidence and arseholery are distinct enough that a woman worth your time will be able to pick the difference.

 

[Panzer_God]

Eamar told him that his outlook was what was causing the problem, what he didn't mention was the solution. Why didn't he mention it? Because the solution is to get the fuck over yourself and deal with it.

I'm a she, but I won't hold that against you

And to be fair, I was hoping to ease Doclector into some sort of conversation and tease out some relevant information (didn't want to go in all guns blazing if there was some seriously bad shit that had recently happened or something). I would have got to the "get over it" part eventually, though probably not in those words.

I think we're all just working from our own experiences here. You're doing what you found helpful for you, I'm starting off gently because that helps me (I also have experience of mental health problems). If Doclector want to take any advice he has a variety of approaches to choose from. Ball's in his court now.

Yeah, but that's because you're quite a bit nicer than me xD

 

[Smeatza]

Callousness and cold-heartedness? Are we perhaps being a tad melodramatic? He is being neither. He is being BLUNT. He's employing the lead boot instead of the velvet glove. That does not mean he "lacks empathy". It means he believes a different kind of motivation is called for in this case, due to his own experiences. The one taking a moral (and, I might add, condemnatory) stance here is you. You're also engaging in some pretty high handed name calling, and might want to tone it down. The tone of discussion in here is actually fairly civil. There's absolutely no need to go on the attack. I can see you think Doclector needs a gentle touch and understanding ear right now, and I respect that, but I also respectfully disagree. That Doctlector is actively stating that he is "sick to death" of well meaning advice indicates to me he's past the sympathy stage and needs a good smack. Don't we ALL need a good smack now and then?

It could also mean there is a deeper or more complicated problem at the root of it all. Perhaps we are at an impasse, I simply see no need for what appears to me as a lack of kindness and civility (which is what blunt means).

It's been a while since anyone has accused me of discriminating against the clinically depressed, since until last year I was heavily medicated for depression and anger management issues. I was clinically depressed for most of my formative years, and do you know how I got over it? Neither do I, I just did. People told me to man the fuck up, and once I pulled my head out of my ass, I manned the fuck up and suddenly my problems went away. My advice isn't substandard, nor is it misunderstood, it's the most direct way of giving the advice to the people I am directing it to. Basically I'm saying exactly what Eamar did, and I respect him for having the patience to do it the long way. I've gone to six therapists, three psychologists (psychiatrists? I don't remember which) and in my experience, all of their advice boils down to telling someone to get over it, with differing levels of bullshit in between. Eamar told him that his outlook was what was causing the problem, what he didn't mention was the solution. Why didn't he mention it? Because the solution is to get the fuck over yourself and deal with it. I just skipped straight past the boring part.

You'll have to forgive me if I take your claims with a pinch of salt.
And like I have said, your personal experience is not necessarily indicative of others.

In any case, nobody is going to change their outlook on life simply because you told them to do so. They have to realise themselves that they must do so. And your kind of advice only serves to cement feelings of isolation.

Wait, wait, wait. When did I claim to be taking a moral stance? My entire stance in this thread has been telling people to get over themselves. Where we are conflicting is in that you don't believe it's a legitimate stance and I do, but I never claimed that it was a moral one. Although, your theories on my reasons for being callous are both true. I am a sociopath, so empathy has never been my strong point. I'm a sociopath who hates anything that reminds me of the point in time where I cried myself to sleep at night. I hates the people who have the same problem that I did, but without the strength and courage to do what I did to change it.

You are saying that it is ok to be uncivil towards those who have confidence/social etc. issues if you believe you are trying to help. That is a moral stance whether you like it or not.
And the part in bold...well...just horrifies me. You hate those that are weaker than you emotionally?
It pretty much sums up everything I've been saying.