Poll: Hungary bans homeless people.

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ultimateownage

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Feb 11, 2009
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This reminds me of that South Park episode.

I can kind of see the idea, or at least imagine one. If someone is homeless, put them in further debt (or a 'loan') and then give them somewhere to live (jail). It's like they're renting out their prisons!
 

Soviet Steve

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May 23, 2009
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I recall reading in the Danish media that the organizations that act as a mouhtpiece for the homeless say that while there are homeless shelters these are around 1-3000 beds shy of being adequate. Seems like it'd be cheaper to set up a couple of bunkhouses in some warehouses and call it a night.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

The Killjoy Detective returns!
Jan 23, 2011
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The good news: prisons won't be able to handle it and it will force a repeal. More good news: those arrested get free housing, food, and healthcare. It is still very, very stupid.
 

MammothBlade

It's not that I LIKE you b-baka!
Oct 12, 2011
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There is no such thing as homelessness in Hungary. See that "homeless person"? They're not homeless at all. They have a prison cell.
 

Albino Boo

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Jun 14, 2010
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Ok guys you actually have to read the article. The people are that are sleeping rough are Romany. The Romany have caused problems all over Europe in the last 10-15 years, from gangs of pickpockets in London to an all out attack on police station in France. The Romany can quite legitimately claim that they have been victims of racism, indeed 200000 were murdered in the holocaust, but the this does not mean that you have justification for criminal behaviour. It's not infrequent to children being sent out to beg on public transport and when anyone complains that the child should be in school its claimed that child begging is part of Romany culture. It's a difficult issue but imagine the politics if the streets of Washington were being overrun by 50k Hispanic rough sleepers and perhaps you can understand the this story much better
 

AshuraSpeaks

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Jun 12, 2008
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If we followed suit then *puts on sunglasses* we'd all be going Hungary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rD4Paq0zE
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
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lunncal said:
Therumancer said:
No, you're not a realist, you're just callous, at least if you really believe what you're saying. Rounding up and forcing homeless people into military service, where at worst you're literally murdering them, and at best you're effectively enslaving them for the criminal act of being poor, is just despicable on many levels. Perhaps you haven't really thought it through or something, because I hope that's not what you really think.

Giving free food, cheap housing, and medical care to the homeless has helped the problem, and that problem is that homeless people did not have food, housing or medical care. It's not a permanent solution by any means, but it's a damn sight better than doing nothing, or harming them more (as this law is trying to do).

Oh, and I hope the homeless do spend any money they're given on drugs, booze, and whatever the hell they like. I imagine I'd turn to those things if I were homeless too, if that's what it takes for them to suffer a little less or gain a little temporary happiness in their lives then good for them. It disgusts me how often people use this as an excuse to ease their conscience when they don't give money to the poor.

OT: Stupid on many, many levels. You can't shouldn't punish people for being poor, it's just... wrong.
Actually, humanitarian aid has done as much, or more harm as it has good. Even in the best cases you simply wind up with people becoming dependant on the aid, as opposed to using it as a springboard to becoming self sufficient. In most cases your acually contributing to the problem by providing fuel to the junkies and criminals. The cases of "Hollywood Homeless" are actually pretty rare.

In the end the bottom line is to deal with the problem, and there is no NICE way to do it. My basic attitude is one where you pretty much put them to work in such a way that they contribute something for the resources they are using.

Now, I understand the left wing outrage, but if you really thought this through you'd probably be asking "well, why not give them jobs in the US where it's safer" and the answer to that is similar to why we use convicts for hard labour a lot less than we used to. If you say take a bunch of goverment dependant proles or prisoners and put them to work on say road construction domestically you wind up taking that job away from the actual contractors that ARE working and depend on that work for their continued employment. Putting construction companies out of business so you can employ the people who were homeless is kind of counter productive. Ultimatly with prisoners it's been determined in most places that the benefits to contracting the work outweigh the benefits of using prison labour. I've read a few things about it.

On the other hand if we send them out overseas to say build roads in Africa or whatever they are saving the goverment money because in general we do that off of tax money and donations as opposed to directly contracted labour. It's vastly increasing the number of people working on those projects.

Likewise in the process of doing that kind of work, the guys in question are going to be picking up skills in things like construction, farming, food preparation, and other things. Sure it's not NICE, and a lot probably will die, but it does solve the domestic problem while making use of the people, and giving them chances at self improvement.


It's not pleasant to think about, but consider that we're dealing with people liable to wind up dead in a ditch somewhere.

I have more sympathy for the plight of the mentally ill who wind up on the streets than the general pool of homeless people to be entirely honest. But that's another whole discussion that gets into one of the handfull of exceptions I believe exist (there are exceptions to everything, and I'm sure you could convince me of more that might be practical to implement given time).

Your outrage is pretty much moral, rather than practical. If problems like this could be solved by volunteer health workers, projects, and soup kitchens we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. this is an issue (in the US... and Hungary as this post was discussing) because those things haven't helped.
 

Giftfromme

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Nov 3, 2011
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Therumancer said:
It's not a nice thing, but I'm not sure if you can really say it's bad. The truth is that while there ARE people who wind up being homless through no fault of their own, more often than not it's the result of people who wind up being there through their own actions and things like say choosing drugs and alcohol over work and paying rent. This is one of the big reasons why the problem hasn't been impacted, plenty of people all over the world have gone in there with left wing morals, providing free food, cheap housing, medical care, and other things to the homeless, all full of wide eyed wonder thinking they are going to be helping the "Left wing TV special" person of someone who just got a raw deal and needs a bit of a helping hand. It ends in diasater however because for every one person who might be like that you probably have 20 people who aren't that turn all of these programs and projects into a joke. They use the mobile health clinics as a free source of painkillers, turn the projects into crime ridden hellholes, and use the soup kitchens and such as bait to draw people into ambushes to be robbed, raped, and exploited (after all, you know vulnerable people will be coming to and from the soup kitchens, so you know where abouts to ambush them).

This is not to say that these kinds of programs cost tons and tons of money, and the question always arises as to where that money is going to come from. A lot of the people homeless on the streets (and part of what freaks me out given my situations) at least in the US are there because of mental health issues, due to the goverment being unable to support the hospitals and such, there was a big deal years ago where they were literally lobbing everyone who wasn't actively homicidal out the door. That's wrong on a lot of levels, but
at the same time raising the taxes to support things like that are not easy to do. Everyone wants the goverment to do all these humanitarian things, but nobody wants to pay the taxes for the goverment to do it.

As the article points out, Hungary also has a problem in the form of the Romani who are a touchy subject. Your dealing with a group of nomads who have an entire culture based off of being homeless, and criminal acts and scams. A lot of people like to romanticize the Gypsies and talk about misunderstandings, but in the end living with them doing what they do is very difficult and it puts a kind of pressure on the entire situation that isn't present where you don't have that kind of ethnic subculture.

I think a lot of it comes down to them wanting to try and regulate the Romanii without actually specifying them and risking outcries of racism especially in the UN. The basic point being to require all of these people to maintain a solid, verifyable identity, and address, so that way if they say rob or swindle someone they can't just vanish into a constantly moving subculture. The basic point is probably that they want to be able to find a Gypsy, ask the address, and when they don't have one lob them in jail... for good or ill.

You can argue all of this back and forth, I'm actually none too fond of any aspect of it (Gypsies or in general) but I understand it. Truthfully it's the kind of problem that does need to be resolved, and despite what a lot of people might think it's not something that is going to be resolve by just lobbing free crap and oppertunities at the poor. Of course throwing them into prison isn't nessicarly going to help either. The end result is that morality has to be re-evaluated and a lot of things we consider cruel and inhumane put back on the table. Me personally, I'd like to see the homeless in the US rounded up and put into international service. Send them out of the country in uniform to do dreg work for US/UN peacekeeping forces. We don't arm those guys anyway in many cases. You use these guys to say dig latrines for refugees, build fences (carryng stones and such) and cool the meals being handed out and so on. In short use them as a sort of support-oriented penal corps. where they can be made to dry out under military watch, get in better shape, and perhaps eventually learn some skills to come back home and contribute. If a lot of them never come back from their duties... well, that sucks and all, but we're dealing with people whose bodies were probably going to wind up clogging gutters as it was... that might sound callous, but I can't help but be a realist. I can't come up with a perfect, utopian solution, but neither can anyone else which is why we have problems like this.
It's an issue that needs to be resolved? Are you ok? Homelessness is something that can be solved? Are you being serious or is this some kind of new age humour I don't get?

That...makes so sense whatsoever. In every economy that involves money, there will always be poor and homeless people. Always. It's an unavoidable artifact of a money based economy. You think these people can "just get jobs?" You think an economy can have 100% employment? If you give it more then just 1 second of thought, you realise it's impossible. Literally impossible. Like if 100% of the people of working age in a country were employed, what then of of the employment agencies? I don't know about other countries, but in Australia employment agencies and Centrelink employ a LOT of people. What would they do if there was 100% employment?

Choosing alcohol and drugs over rent? Let me ask again: are you ok? People get addicted to drugs, and alcohol "helps" others with pain in their life. They didn't take cocaine once and then decide that the rest of their lives will revolve around it. There are other issues involved, others you and I couldn't fathom. These kind of issues will always exist in an economy that uses money.

The way money works and has its power is because a lot of people will always have "less" and others will have "more" (in a relative sense). It will always happen, it's how money works, how it will work for a long time to come. It has to happen, and institutions set up help make the system work. These are not evil but simple necessity. School is one of them.


^^Going from your post above, you have some bizarre views man. Like really bizarre. You talk about shipping people, forcing them to work, like it's something casual and takes no resources to do. I mean, do you give thought to your posts? Do you think you're the first person ever to think of something like this? Do you know why this hasn't been done in a serious manner? Probably might have to do with many many many factors, one of which is....*drum roll* money! You think money just appears? If money is given for this outrageously silly project, it HAS to be taken away from other areas the Government could spend money. That's unavoidable. That money won't just be plucked from a tree conveniently for this project.
 

jpoon

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Mar 26, 2009
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Idiotic idea, sounds about right for an answer from a government.
 

loc978

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Sep 18, 2010
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Oh great, a thinly veiled excuse to toss the Romani in jail. I sort of understand the desire of their government to have these folks off the streets... but this is going to cost them more than a comprehensive welfare program would have.
Yay for further polarizing financial classes?
 

gigastar

Insert one-liner here.
Sep 13, 2010
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Am i th-

No im not, but im saying it anyway...

Am i the only one reminded of that judge in Futurama that ruled that being poor was a mental illness?
 

Dr. Crawver

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Nov 20, 2009
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that...I never rated hungary high up for logically led countries, but that's not what I expected
 

HerbertTheHamster

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Apr 6, 2009
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if there's one thing history has taught me, it's that Hungary cannot into logic.

I love how they went from massive inflation to massive unemployment. I'm eagerly awaiting hungarian "hyperunemployment", where 170% of the population is unemployed
 

dyre

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Mar 30, 2011
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I wouldn't judge this without learning more about the cultural background behind it. I doubt the law was made because lawmakers felt stupid that day; it probably has a more malicious background. As the article indicated, the Romani people (gypsies) in Hungary are largely unemployed, so it's possible that lawmakers are just trying to use this law as a pretext to selectively get rid of certain homeless people. The lawmakers might not necessarily want to get rid of all the homeless; they could just want the ability to get rid of the specific homeless groups that they don't like.

Really, it seems like a thinly veiled shot at having an excuse to jail minorities. Not a stupid decision, but rather a malicious one. It's probably quite a bit more logical than you people give it credit for, in the evil politician style of logic.
 

Dave29

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Dec 2, 2010
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Anyone who thinks banning the homeless is a bad idea should let a homeless person move in with them.

You know, for the sake of consistency, and maybe the lulz.
 

Dumbfish1

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Oct 17, 2008
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z121231211 said:
While we're at it let's ban murder and having credit card debt. That'll make it go away!
I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there already is a ban on murder...
 

omicron1

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Mar 26, 2008
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Well, at least the homeless won't go Hungary... :D

This is rather a foolish ruling; it will not combat homelessness, only send homeless people elsewhere. It could only work in a fraction of the countries on Earth, and does not get at the root problem.
In other words, it's classic bureaucracy.