Poll: Injustice of the Permaban

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madwarper

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blackrave said:
I approached warning bar as something like health bar.
When you're down you get another chance after some while.
Metaphor? Ok, but after the 8th time they willingly jump in front of the Mod's bullets of wrath, or drink the poison of their own rudeness, they deserve to be permanently banned.

And, a tiger can't change its stripes. Even when the appeals team allows a banned poster to return, it won't be long till they offend again.
What you propose merely allows them further opportunity to be detrimental to the community as a whole.
 

chozo_hybrid

What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets.
Jul 15, 2009
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Eleuthera said:
It's 8 strikes actually, not 10.

Really you don't just accidentally make 8 low-content posts. One or two before you understand the rules, maybe.

It's really not that hard to not insult people, if someone insults you, report them and let it go. If someone disagrees with you or even if someone has repulsive ideas on any subject, discuss things civilly or leave the discussion.

There's really only 1 rule: make sure your content is worthwhile.

Insults aren't, low content isn't, spam isn't, being a jerk isn't
Question, I've never faced Mod wrath, but I was wondering if it's possible to work off the strikes with good behavior etc? How long does it take, or is there no removing them.

Rednog said:
I'm honestly starting to roll my eyes at threads like these and the remember the banned threads.
Sorry to burst people's bubbles, but a lot of the users who get a ton of attention when banned got their notoriety not form being stunning pillars of excellence in the community, but more often than not from being toxic.
Heck I sometimes wish moderation was a bit harsher, 8 infractions with a removal system is insanely generous. I'd love it if "being a jerk" was worth more strikes, there's nothing worse for a community than a user berating/insulting/demeaning other users.
Agreed, I've never had a problem with the moderation here, you've been here a bit longer then me and I see you have clean record.

[small]Also, Jack of All Trades was awesome.[/small]
 

madwarper

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chozo_hybrid said:
Question, I've never faced Mod wrath, but I was wondering if it's possible to work off the strikes with good behavior etc? How long does it take, or is there no removing them.
6 months, no wrath = 1 tick removed.
2 years, no wrath = clears all forum health
 

astrav1

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Drathnoxis said:
I've been lurking these forums for quite some time now, and while I think it's generally a pretty cool place I can't help feel that the super strict moderation is a detriment to the site.

First off, the ten strike warning system. Though it has relaxed slightly since it's initial implementation, it remains to be a ticking time bomb over the heads of many frequent posters. Now I know that someone is going to refer to those polls that state that the majority of posters have no strikes against them; however, those polls have no indication of the posting habits of those that respond. Take me for example, I have no warnings, but I also have very few posts to my name. I also vote in every poll I see. So you can see how this throws the validity of the poll into question. I feel that the ten strike warning system is bound to take out most of the frequent posters eventually, or at least the more interesting ones because, really, everybody slips up now and again and depending on how much they post it may be more often than within *six months* of their last mistake. Six months is a really long time to lose one strike and two years to erase them all is completely absurd, most of the current posters haven?t even been here two years! A more reasonable time frame would be one or two months to get rid of one infraction and one year to erase them all. One last thing about the ten strike system, and the thing that burns me the most about it, is that it gives the same weight to every infraction. I can't stand to see someone get banned for a low-content post and yet it seems to happen quite frequently.

Next, for the most part it seems that when a regular user gets banned, it only detracts from the conversations that take place here on the Escapist. A lot of the frequent posters I've seen banned seem to have opinions that differ from the norm. I believe that they are more likely to get banned because they tend to be ganged up on, get frustrated, and therefore (understandably) resort to acting a bit more like a jerk than they usually would. Also, I believe that people are more likely to report people they disagree with rather than ones that they are in alignment with. This leads to a homogenization of opinion and I for one don't think it makes for interesting conversation when everybody stands around agreeing and patting each other on the back. Another thing people that get banned tend to have is passion. Passionate posters make more interesting posts that are usually reasonably well defended. Weeding these people out leads to those remaining in the forum to be wishy-washy posters who don't really take a firm stand on any topics.

The Escapist is a place to have interesting semi-intellectual discussions about a wide variety of topics. However, discussion is not always neat and agreeable and tends to get tempers up. To cut out this aspect is to neuter discussion itself. By all means ban those that solely intend to start trouble right from the start, but those that have proven themselves to be worthy contributors over time by making frequent well defended posts should be given some leniency when it comes to the permanent ban. I feel it really is the people who are a little bit controversial that forces people to defend and re-evaluate their positions and make for the most interesting conversations. Is the purpose of the ban not to improve the quality of these forums? I believe it is. I must then ask: Does banning someone with 10 minor infractions over the course of years really improve the Escapist?
Edit: actually it's eight strikes, not ten
You should have seen this place a little while ago. They were short of sicking the though police on everyone.
 

chozo_hybrid

What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets.
Jul 15, 2009
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madwarper said:
chozo_hybrid said:
Question, I've never faced Mod wrath, but I was wondering if it's possible to work off the strikes with good behavior etc? How long does it take, or is there no removing them.
6 months, no wrath = 1 tick removed.
2 years, no wrath = clears all forum health
Ah thanks, was curious since I've yet to have any ticks on my meter.
 

blackrave

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chozo_hybrid said:
Question, I've never faced Mod wrath, but I was wondering if it's possible to work off the strikes with good behavior etc? How long does it take, or is there no removing them.
6 months of angelic behaviour (or simply meh behaviour- whatever suits you)

madwarper said:
And, a tiger can't change its stripes. Even when the appeals team allows a banned poster to return, it won't be long till they offend again.
What you propose merely allows them further opportunity to be deferential to the community as a whole.
If we pick no-permaban-only-1y-ban scenario then it is 2 insults per year

And on rare occasions people DO change (since we aren't tigers ;) )
 

Berithil

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Mar 19, 2009
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chozo_hybrid said:
Eleuthera said:
It's 8 strikes actually, not 10.

Really you don't just accidentally make 8 low-content posts. One or two before you understand the rules, maybe.

It's really not that hard to not insult people, if someone insults you, report them and let it go. If someone disagrees with you or even if someone has repulsive ideas on any subject, discuss things civilly or leave the discussion.

There's really only 1 rule: make sure your content is worthwhile.

Insults aren't, low content isn't, spam isn't, being a jerk isn't
Question, I've never faced Mod wrath, but I was wondering if it's possible to work off the strikes with good behavior etc? How long does it take, or is there no removing them.
If you wait 6 months, you get one bar removed. After two years you get your record wiped. That all depends on "good behavior", of course

Edit: And I was just ninja'd... twice
 

madwarper

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blackrave said:
And on rare occasions people DO change (since we aren't tigers ;) )
Anything is possible, just not plausible.

I can only name 2 users that have been brought back from a ban. But, they are currently banned.
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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My 2 biggest complaints about the system are 1) After the stupid system was implemented I was automatically bumped up to 5 in infractions even though at the time I'd only had 2. So now I'm only 2 infractions away from permaban. :mad: (Yes I'm still bitter about that after 3 years) 2) I think that stupid permaban avatar is incredibly immature.
 
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canadamus_prime said:
I think that stupid permaban avatar is incredibly immature.
That, I have to agree with. I mean, when it came to being banned, the gray lettering and the red BANNED under the avatar works just fine to show that the person was banned. The avatar just seems to be a way to mock people for not following the rules.
 

Easton Dark

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Meh. I'm still bitter about my only two infractions, that I got last year in the span of two days, where my posts, one was apparently offensive (though the person I was talking to admitted to acting as I called him), one was something I can't remember, and both posts were two weeks old at the point the infractions were given.

And then I see people going into threads with posts consisting of nothing more than "Dis gon be gud" GIFs and text that says the same, and they get away.

Moderation isn't harsh. I just feel it's inconsistent. Why can't there be a mod tribunal or something to decide the fate of a post instead of only one being allowed the decision? It'd also add a lot of mysticism and power to the image of the mods, which I feel they'd enjoy.

canadamus_prime said:
I think that stupid permaban avatar is incredibly immature.
I do as well. And some posters that people like don't get that avatar when they're banned, because they're special I guess. Again, inconsistent.
 

Canadamus Prime

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thebobmaster said:
canadamus_prime said:
I think that stupid permaban avatar is incredibly immature.
That, I have to agree with. I mean, when it came to being banned, the gray lettering and the red BANNED under the avatar works just fine to show that the person was banned. The avatar just seems to be a way to mock people for not following the rules.
Which strikes me as more than a little hypocritical.
 

Legion

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Oct 2, 2008
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8 infractions should be more than enough to realise what you can, and cannot post. Hundreds of people manage to do it every day without any problems. If you still don't get it after that many, then removal of posting privileges is better for everybody. I don't see why being here longer, or being popular should exempt a person from the rules.

canadamus_prime said:
I think that stupid permaban avatar is incredibly immature.
I must admit, I am not much of a fan either. While I do not think it was the intention, it makes bans seem more personal and mocking than they are supposed to be.

Dags90 said:
Offensive Posts
Please read what you wrote before you post it and think if anyone else could find it offensive
Is so vague it's practically useless. Anyone can find it offensive? Anyone can find anything offensive (or at least claim to) at anytime for any reason. Something like "majority of forum peers" or similar would be less vague, not great but better.

Hopefully no one on the entire internet finds this post offensive, or I'm in trouble.
That's meant as a way of making people evaluate what they wrote. As in "Read this, do you think it's going to upset anybody? If so, why not re-write it so that it doesn't?"

Rather than a "Anything you write that offends somebody is going to get you in trouble."

After all, there are some users who recently posted in the The-Banhammer-and-You-A-Users-Guide-to-the-Forums, about how the word "slut" shouldn't be allowed to be used. The mods pointed out that it's the context that matters the most, not specific words themselves.

Or else as you say, people could get banned for pretty much anything, seeing as being offended is entirely subjective. The reason it's mentioned is advice on how to avoid unnecessary issues.
 

Therumancer

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To be honest I'm not sure if marks EVER go away, I have 3 strikes on me as the result of a single event (a ban that was reversed) and I'm pretty sure it was over 2 years ago at this point, and definatly well over six months where one of the marks should have disappeared. It doesn't matter because despite some contreversial posts I tend not to get in trouble, and remain polite even when argueing with people, I'm just saying this by way of correction in that I don't think marks ever go away (could be old information) since I've actually been at this a long time and have been paying attention to my own profile at least.

That said, I don't pay much attention to who gets banned or moderated, but I can say that I've been involved in a number of heated debates and said some very contreversial things that have gotten some pretty negative attention here from the user base (I'm generally right wing, not a huge supporter of most gay rights issues, very pro-America, and a militant to boot) and I have gotten in absolutly no trouble.

In general it seems to me that it's more an issue of HOW you say things, instead of what your saying. Remain polite, avoid flame wars (even when flamed), and take the time to explain yourself especially when your giving a contreversial or minority opinion. My posts tend to be long for a reason.... do that and you probably won't get in any trouble.

The few cases where I've noticed people getting banned for things that weren't sort posts, involved people trolling, being insulting, or getting into flame wars. In general the moderators want to keep things civil, I'd imagine from their perspective "who started it" or said what first doesn't really matter so much as what your saying now and the trouble it's causing. Someone flames you, you flame them back, your both at fault. If you wind up getting into flame wars frequently instead of knowing when to let things drop (like I tend to) the pattern gets noticed.

I've been here a long time, and that's my input.
 

Happiness Assassin

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If you can't follow the code of conduct after 8 strikes that disappear on their own after a certain period, then the problem isn't with the moderation.
 

b3nn3tt

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I think the moderation is just fine. This may well be due to the fact that I've never actually had anything to do with the mod team; why would I think there's a problem if I've never had a problem? But I'm one of those people that will always click on the link if someone has been warned/suspended/banned for a post, and I can't think of a single instance when I've disagreed with the mods' decision.

If anything, as other people have said, the system is rather generous. Having eight chances is more than enough of an opportunity to avoid getting banned. For all the people complaining about the fact that eight low-content posts can earn someone a ban (which is debatable in itself), I would argue that that person deserves a ban. They would have had seven opportunities to learn from their mistakes and stop making posts that don't contribute to the discussion. I'm of the view that if someone hasn't learnt by then, then the forums are better off without them.

Further to that, there is also the appeal system. So even if someone has actually been unfairly judged by a mod, there exists a system where they can ask several other mods to weigh in on the issue, which to me seems a pretty fair way of dealing with that.

This post actually went on longer than I intended, all I really meant to say was that I think the moderation system is good!
 

Drathnoxis

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Therumancer said:
To be honest I'm not sure if marks EVER go away, I have 3 strikes on me as the result of a single event (a ban that was reversed) and I'm pretty sure it was over 2 years ago at this point, and definatly well over six months where one of the marks should have disappeared.
1 year, 3 months since you were at level 5. Two sets of 6 month reductions to get to 3. You're 3 months into the next reduction, and 9 months away from the 2 year slate cleaning. That system is simple and automated; the computers are not out to get anyone (yet).
 

Dead Seerius

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I actually think the system itself is fine. The warnings are meant to, you know, WARN people that they maaaay just want to be a little more careful with what they say. And you get eight of the damn things before you're kicked, and that's assuming you don't behave yourself for any stretch of time and regain some 'health'.

Now I have had moments in the past where I've seen a user get a warning (and in some cases a full-on ban) for a post that really didn't seem all that bad. I personally didn't find Vault's last post to be mean at all. Sure, she called the guy a crybaby. It wasn't exactly nice but it also didn't seem to be all that mean-spirited.

Hell, I've seen other posters say the exact same thing without getting a warning, just in a more subtle, passive-aggressive manner. I actually find that to be worse because then you have condescension mixed in as well.

Still, 8 warnings should be enough to make you seriously reconsider writing an insulting post, no matter how tame it may seem.
 

2fish

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I have no problems with the current system as they give enough chances to make mistakes yet not enough to allow the person to be a major problem before removing them. The only issues come up when people refuse to step back and the conversation degrades from discussion, to screaming match, to name calling. Insults are the biggest ban issue I have seen. My advice is yell the insults at the screen not typing them and bam no problems.

Now as to why I came in here. I want to quote all the modes out of context.
sky14kemea said:
If you have 10 infractions over the years, then either you're getting them often enough that they aren't being removed, or you've not been here that long at all.
Eleuthera said:
It's 8 strikes actually, not 10.
sky14kemea said:
I'm far too bleary-eyed to answer this properly, so I will leave that to my co-Mods. However...
maddawg IAJI said:
Who knows? You might see better results that way.
Poor Gryffindor I think I just put them in the negatives.

Also maddawg this is a warning that last comment sounded mean but I won't use my secret mod powers on you as I must hide those from the mods lest they catch me.

Dear god I either need more coffee or sleep. Choices choices.