Poll: Is abortion murder?

[Chainsaws_of_War_2]

This is such a great topic, good job OP. It's been rather a dry spell on The Escapist since we had a topic like this to get everyone to pull out their intellectual stops.

As for me, I was raised Catholic so therefore was raised to believe abortion is murder. It's not just my faith though, because it does seem logical. When two people engage in an act that was given to humans to procreate, and they deny the whole point of intercourse, then I see it as no more better than walking into a gas station and shooting someone in the face. Though pleasure is a great side effect and motivation to have sex, it is not the complete reason people would engage the act.

Unless the utmost protection is used, (condoms, the pill, diaphragm, etc.) I could not engage in sex knowing I could put unwanted life in the world.

I realize this whole opinion is hypocritical but you know what, I just gonna say what a lot of my Catholic friends believe:

Sex feels good, but no one wants babies they can't take care of. So use a damn rubber!

 

[Samurai Goomba]

le snip

Couple of things:

First:
Using "pro-life" is nonsense, as if people who want abortion to be a possibility are anti-life. I feel quite offended by that really. I don't like abortion, it's a sad thing and I doubt any upcoming mother would go YAAAY when having an abortion.

Yet I can obviously see that abortion sometimes is the most humane thing to do and that's why I want it to be a possibility. Saying you're "pro-life" is such BS, that title really shows where the debate goes wrong. So does RMcD94 by the way, being so rude.

Second:
Care to prove that statistical statement? Do genetic defects and life threatening situations really make up a tiny part of all abortions?

Pro-life was just a word I used because I dislike the negative connotations associated with being "anti" something. I needed a "pro" status for both myself and the other side. That was the one available. If you don't like it, tough. I didn't invent the word. Really, seems like people on both sides are going out of their ways to be offended by anything I say, and I'm too tired to cater to either of you. Obviously, you're not "anti" life, but I DIDN'T SAY YOU WERE. There's a very weak inference there that any slightly intelligent poster might pick up on, but he or she will immediately ignore it as well. Because he or she is not an idiot. Even "abortion" is a freaking buzzword hiding the true nature of the procedure, excuse me if I don't worry too much about the implications of the phrase "pro life." Since you don't like the term, feel free to never once use it yourself.

Oh, and I said it ONCE, so seriously... Forget you, dude.

Second, absolutely.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States
(Check under "reasons for abortion")

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_abortions_are_performed_because_of_rape

With numbers this small, it basically invalidates the entire argument that this is a good reason to legalize abortion. There might be OTHER valid reasons to legalize abortion, it's just that I believe the rape argument is not one of them.

I do not believe a few exceptions is enough to allow a blanket legalization of a process through which potential life is rendered dead, and which the majority will use for selfish reasons. But if such a thing must exist, let it be used ONLY under the minority, fantastical exception circumstances of rape, incest or the mother's health being in danger. Let there be a doctor in the room verifying this before any abortion takes place.

 

[Stuntcrab]

I say yes mainly because your denying something life its killing a baby if someone doesn't want the baby THEN FUCKING GIVE IT TO ADOPTION!

 

[cryofpaine]

I for the most part am liberal, but this is where I draw the line. Yes, abortion is murder. A person is a person as soon as they are conceived. If you are dumb enough to have sex, then you are gonna have that baby. If you don't want a baby, then be smart enough not to get knocked up.

In a grossly overpopulated and overconsuming world, I think that's a disgusting attitude to have. There are greater responsibilites out there than appeasing to archaic, impractical and counter-productive morals spawned by ignorant superstition.

Feel free to disagree, but those are my two cents.

No, it is not murder, that is why it is called abortion. If a man rapes me, I have every right to remove his penis from my body if I did not invite him in. The same goes for a fetus.

Agree, agree, and agree.

Think that it's not "don't have sex", but rather "be responsible". If you are going to have sex, have protected sex if you do not want a child. It's that simple. Take responsibility for your choices, your actions, and the consequences of those actions.

And yes, in certain circumstances, abortion is a viable consideration. However, the exceptions should not define the rule. Just because an ambulance needs to travel over the speed limit and run red lights when trying to get a patient to the hospital, that doesn't mean everyone has permission to run red lights or speed because they don't feel like waiting.

 

[Stuntcrab]

Technically, it's not alive, so no.

Actually it is alive
If you don't feed it, it dies
It grows
it moves

 

[Grand_Pamplemousse]

IMHO:

24 weeks is too long. It is possible for a child to be born at around 22 weeks and still live. Possible but not likely.

The problem with arguing this abortion dealy, is that everybody here has a different definition for life, and if we agreed on one definition it would be possible to actually get some where.

Is it right to have a seriously handicapped child born (and I mean really handicapped)? I would say probably not, as all you are doing is subjecting that potential-to-be-life to a future of constant hospital visits; inability to do the simplest actions and unremitting pain. Is it right to forcefully put someone through that? Surely, before they are even conscious, before them as a person even exists it would be better if that potential-to-be-life never actually reached life?

Kinda off topic: Isn't it funny how Christians say that a 'special' child is born it is:
A) A Gift from God
B) Made by God
C) One of Gods Children

Now there is nothing inherently wrong with 'C' but with 'A' and 'B' there are some serious faults. For instance, why would an all-powerful (omnipotent), all loving (benevolent) God make a child that had any problems at all? Surely if he truly loved us he would use all his power to produce a perfect child? And on the same vein, if he truly was all powerful and loved us all so much why wouldn't he use that power to create a perfect child, unless of course he actually isn't omnipotent.

And now for 'A'; simply, why would God gift a handicapped child to some parents, or a family? Why would he deem that as a gift, seeing as how I know a recently separated couple leave each other on the grounds that they were spending 90% of their time either working or caring for their handicapped child, and therefore had grown distant and argued constantly. Surely that child in that family was not a gift and more of a curse? (Not to say all handicapped children are curses but in this instance she definitely was poisonous).

I'm guessing OP's family has always voted Republican, thinks Bill O'Reilly is brilliant and are fond of the bible.

Just a stab in the dark.

Isn't it funny how a book with hilarious amounts of doubles standards written years ago in an unenlightened time can actually dictate how politics is fought today, and more importantly how people think today.

 

[DigitalSushi]

I'm guessing OP's family has always voted Republican, thinks Bill O'Reilly is brilliant and are fond of the bible.

Just a stab in the dark.

I don't think the OP is American, due to the broken English he is spelling with, if he is then shame on him because he types like English isn't his first language.

I have better grammar and I was illiterate till a few years ago, illiterate in multiple languages might I add! HA.

No, it is not murder, that is why it is called abortion. If a man rapes me, I have every right to remove his penis from my body if I did not invite him in. The same goes for a fetus.

Thats an excellent point you make, there was an actual case of a 13 year old Romanian girl that got asylum in the UK because she had a child through rape. I really don't know what that poor girl went through, and it hurts just thinking about it.

 

[Tdc2182]

I for the most part am liberal, but this is where I draw the line. Yes, abortion is murder. A person is a person as soon as they are conceived. If you are dumb enough to have sex, then you are gonna have that baby. If you don't want a baby, then be smart enough not to get knocked up.

In a grossly overpopulated and overconsuming world, I think that's a disgusting attitude to have. There are greater responsibilites out there than appeasing to archaic, impractical and counter-productive morals spawned by ignorant superstition.

Feel free to disagree, but those are my two cents.

Well, when we decide that someone isnt allowed to live a life because of an overpopulated world, then people no longer get to call themselves people. Wonder why people urge you to wait till your married? It's not just "religious superstition" anymore.

 

[Zersy]

Well one way to look at it is that your destroying the potential of life. That bunch of cells will turn into a complex set of reactions to create life something that only has one way of being made.

On the other, that bunch of cells couldn't care if your gonna zap them or not. your not inflicting pain, or killing against it's will , like killing a bunch of skin cells by holding your arm in a flame.

Hard decision. My opinion is that do it if the mothers safety and life is at risk, if abortion must be carried out for simply personal reasons ("I don't want a baby") then no, you have to keep that potential of life then give it up when it's out (By that I mean give birth and give the baby to adoption or someone who wants him/her).

A friend of mind once told me "Abortion is like stabbing a hunting knife into a pregnant deers belly" I still don't really get what he meant.

 

[Dair1]

i think it is since if you have an abortion you are stopping the zygote (think this is the right word)from developing into a human baby so you are preventing a unique life from being created.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I for the most part am liberal, but this is where I draw the line. Yes, abortion is murder. A person is a person as soon as they are conceived. If you are dumb enough to have sex, then you are gonna have that baby. If you don't want a baby, then be smart enough not to get knocked up.

This is, again, an incredibly short-sighed p.o.v. You're forgetting about rape, just to name one thing. Can you imagine how it feels to give birth to a child conceived from your own brother who raped you 9 months back? I sincerely doubt you can.

Also, the "a person is a person" statement has no foundation in reality whatsoever, it is quite frankly nonsense. Why is simple; it is living human tissue, yes, but it is not even an independent organism. It does not live on it's own, it has no individual mind for quite a part of it's growth cycle.

According to your statement, human cell-growths in labs to replace live animal testing are persons too. I am really curious how you'd support that statement as biologically it makes no sense.

le snip

I know you didn't call me that, it's why I said that that's where the debate already goes wrong. Those terms have developed thanks to a very polarised and at times vile and violent debate, "pro-life" and RMcD94's rude reaction being an example. I mean, don't think that abortion is sometimes the most humane thing to do? Like when, for example, the child will never grow up past the age of one and never even become sentient, just to name some extreme example. Aren't you pro-choice too then?

As for the statistics, thank you. It saddens me to see that 25%, at least in the US (as I don't live there) has an abortion just because they don't want a child yet. Rape is, thankfully, just a very small percentage.

However, again, bearing a child after being raped is not something us men can really can have an opinion about. We cannot imagine a single thing about how that would be, it is completely beyond our field of perception.

I too do not like to see an abortion because of rape happen, but lets be honest; it is something we shouldn't be involved in. How could we ever be? How can we even make an even remotely informed opinion about that? What could justify forcing our nonsensical opinion about that subject on women who went through something like that?

le snip

There's the definition of life, but shall we include the definition of murder too? Quite important don't you think?

murder [ˈmɜːdə]
n
1. (Law) the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another Compare manslaughter, homicide

Does human tissue equal being a human being? If so, are cell-cultures in labs, the ones to replace animal testing, people too?

 

[RobCoxxy]

I'm guessing OP's family has always voted Republican, thinks Bill O'Reilly is brilliant and are fond of the bible.

Just a stab in the dark.

I don't think the OP is American, due to the broken English he is spelling with, if he is then shame on him because he types like English isn't his first language.

I have better grammar and I was illiterate till a few years ago, illiterate in multiple languages might I add! HA.

Checked his profile. He's a Yank.
The awful spelling leads me to believe his opinion should also be void.

 

[gamer_parent]

hey guys, let's all try to reduce a very very complex situation into a single word, like say, I dno't know... "murder", and then reduce the entire shabang into several hot button phrases we can use to incite arguments, with all of us in the end basically just doing circles around each other with pure semantics.

I think the OP did a terrible job laying the groundwork for the discussion. It's too broad, and the language is clearly there to provoke.

 

[JediMB]

I for the most part am liberal, but this is where I draw the line. Yes, abortion is murder. A person is a person as soon as they are conceived. If you are dumb enough to have sex, then you are gonna have that baby. If you don't want a baby, then be smart enough not to get knocked up.

In a grossly overpopulated and overconsuming world, I think that's a disgusting attitude to have. There are greater responsibilites out there than appeasing to archaic, impractical and counter-productive morals spawned by ignorant superstition.

Feel free to disagree, but those are my two cents.

Agree, agree, and agree.

Think that it's not "don't have sex", but rather "be responsible". If you are going to have sex, have protected sex if you do not want a child. It's that simple. Take responsibility for your choices, your actions, and the consequences of those actions.

I suppose I should have added:

Granted, while having an abortion might be the responsible thing to do, responsibility should be taken as early as possible. Abortion is not a viable alternative to contraception.

 

[Citizen.Erased]

Just a small point I want to make about something that pisses me off and that is when people say that the only reasons to get an abortion is if the pregnancy was a product of rape or if the woman's life is at risk.

What a load of bullshit. You mean just not wanting a baby isn't enough? Yes, what a great idea, let's force someone who didn't want to get pregnant to raise a child. Let's put the youngster in a broken family where his parents may resent him for the rest of its life! Let's now make our children suffer from their parent's mistakes, what a wonderful idea!

 

[Dr.Sean]

If it can't sign a signature, it's not a person.

All those poor handless people, or illiterate people, or...

I know you were joking. I think...

Animals can't sign signatures either, sorry PETA.

 

[Wuvlycuddles]

It is not murder... it is "Assisted Misscarrage"

 

[DigitalSushi]

I'm guessing OP's family has always voted Republican, thinks Bill O'Reilly is brilliant and are fond of the bible.

Just a stab in the dark.

I don't think the OP is American, due to the broken English he is spelling with, if he is then shame on him because he types like English isn't his first language.

I have better grammar and I was illiterate till a few years ago, illiterate in multiple languages might I add! HA.

Checked his profile. He's a Yank.
The awful spelling leads me to believe his opinion should also be void.

Ouch, sorry OP, I hope I didn't offend you by stating I'm illiterate and have better grammar than you.

Lets face it, this thread is a troll thread, I love the Escapist and the handling of these sort of things, "fuck it lets ignore the OP and talk amongst ourselves".

 

[Kortney]

I personally think it is murder. Lumps of flesh don't have ears and eyes, and they don't swallow and have the ability to kick you while in the womb.

Nor do most fetuses that are legally aborted. Most fetuses that are aborted don't have ears, eyes, mouths, nor legs to kick you with. But if you think it is murder, don't get an abortion. Simple. I don't know why this argument even exists.

Personally, I think abortion has saved countless of parent's wellbeing and has saved a child being raised by parents who aren't ready, don't want one, won't love it and in many cases are neglectful or even abusive.

 

[JediMB]

I for the most part am liberal, but this is where I draw the line. Yes, abortion is murder. A person is a person as soon as they are conceived. If you are dumb enough to have sex, then you are gonna have that baby. If you don't want a baby, then be smart enough not to get knocked up.

In a grossly overpopulated and overconsuming world, I think that's a disgusting attitude to have. There are greater responsibilites out there than appeasing to archaic, impractical and counter-productive morals spawned by ignorant superstition.

Feel free to disagree, but those are my two cents.

Well, when we decide that someone isnt allowed to live a life because of an overpopulated world, then people no longer get to call themselves people. Wonder why people urge you to wait till your married? It's not just "religious superstition" anymore.

For one's right to live, I refer back to my post on sperm.

A person does not exist until after birth.

Waiting until marriage still does not mean that one is ready for raising a child. Furthermore, two people deciding to get married before they know if they're sexually compatible can often spell disaster for that relationship, unless it's reduced to the sort of patriarchal system marriage was originally intended to solidify... where the woman was the man's possession, rather than the two being equal partners.