Poll: Is abortion murder?

[Maze1125]

The conjoined twins are not parasites.

Neither are fetuses.

I'm really not interested in a debate here. I came to the thread to state my opinion on abortion, and that's all. So I'm out.

What's the point in stating your opinion if you're not willing to defend it?

 

[Moccamonster]

No, http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=8955

Isn't it great to just post incoherent pictures, rather then make our own argument?

 

[Arkhangelsk]

I personally think it is murder. Lumps of flesh don't have ears and eyes, and they don't swallow and have the ability to kick you while in the womb.

Fetuses don't have conscious thought until a certain stage. When that stage kicks in though, that's where I put my foot down.

Technically, it's not alive, so no.

How is it now alive? Did you know that by week 4 the baby already has a heart and a circulatory system?

Yes, but it's not "complete." Also, some could probably get an abortion before week 4.

But that's not the point, the point is that it is a person in development. As for the argument made before about putting animals down. They're animals. Not people. There is a HUGE difference. A fetus is a person in the making.

Oh, so you think it's justified to slaughter and kill animals? To skin them while still alive? To flush them down the toilet? Never mind that they are fully developed creatures with the ability to feel pain, no, let's focus on a thing that can barely form the thought of feeling pain, who will be raised poorly anyways. Bollocks to that.

Everything in this battle screams of subjectivity, because we all can't get along on when it's considered murder. I say it's the minute the baby can think about the pain it's in, which is way ahead. Other's think it's murder the minute it gets into the womb, and other say that the sperm is alive, in which case, I've committed infanticide several times.

But think about this: Do you think the baby wants to be raised in a poor environment, or without a father, or being neglected, or being an overall burden to it's family? And doesn't the mother have a say? She's the one who must raise it, she's the one who must go through the pain of giving birth it, and she's the one who must sacrifice every second of her life to it.

To sum up: Until it can properly feel pain, it's not about the baby, it's about the parents. When the fetus counts as a sentient person, meaning when it actually can feel pain and form thoughts on it, then the parents aren't allowed to back out.

 

[Bloodstain]

Nope. Just a bunch of cells.

Pretty much this.

 

[Freakydemon]

No, http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=8955

Isn't it great to just post incoherent pictures, rather then make our own argument?

I'm just saying my opinion in a very shot term being "no". I'm not here to discuss this because for me it's very clear and I don't care if people follow my opinion or not. That's why I also included a funny picture relevant to my opinion being slightly incoherent but still proving the point. Happy now?

 

[Arkzism]

nope, first of all i really dont count it as people, till it at least has a heart beat and brain activity,. and that takes roughly a month... and after that if its a medical issue im for it, also with rape an incest... basically anything that isnt last trimester basically i can go with

 

[Moccamonster]

No, http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=8955

Isn't it great to just post incoherent pictures, rather then make our own argument?

I'm just saying my opinion in a very shot term being "no". I'm not here to discuss this because for me it's very clear and I don't care if people follow my opinion or not. That's why I also included a funny picture relevant to my opinion being slightly incoherent but still proving the point. Happy now?

Yup, I'm happy now.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

No. No concious thought means you aren't killing a true person. That's how I think of it anyway.

This, never met someone who agrees (Yay), I believe when the first synapse fires to create an actual independent thought, no matter how abstract, it is then life. Before that its a lump of cells, I think this makes abortion fine for me if done early in the pregnancy, not sure when exactly this time is. May vary.

 

[YouShouldDeleteThisAccount]

Why do you people even try this?

You can't simply throw something like this into a good or bad category. Life isn't so simple, and things aren't all Black and white.

Abortion is going to be one of the most important political issues in our time. Because it's not an area of obvious wrong or right. A life will never be born because of it, but it could easily be considered unwanted use of another persons body, and it's hard to enforce laws over peoples bodily functions. Many situations where abortion is used also means the kid avoids a bad life.

It's sad, yes. Evil? no.

 

[Zannah]

The point however stands, how can anyone male comment on this topic at all?

Easy, men can be fathers and approximately 50% of babies are male. It's hardly the case the men have no investment in this discussion.

So tell me, what risk for your health do you bear as a father to be? What pain do you suffer? What inconveniences regarding your lifestyle do you have to tolerate? True, it takes two initially (though science is on to that problem), but aside from responsibility, the physical price is exclusively paid by the female part, and it should be hers to decide if she is willing to pay that price.
And of course, you ignore the fact, that pregnancy happens without a caring, responsible partner in place. There's rape, there's failing protection methods and naturally, it's a lot easier for the person to turn tail and flee responsibility, that does not have to wear all the evidence. And still, you claim the right to tell all those women to suck it up, and life with it, because they can put it up for adoption? Excuse me, but are you out of your mind?

 

[SilverApple]

In related note - how come that absolutely all supporters of the 'abortion is murder'-nonsense are male?

They're not, there are loads of women against it too. This board, however, is predominantly male, hence any view point here is going to be supported by more men than women, and if it's a small view point, there's a reasonable possibility that the only supporters of it on this forum will be male, just by chance.

Name one, for I sure never have seen any. Even my mother, stupid as she is, and actively supporting the way women are treated in her religion, up to the point of trying to force me into wearing a scarf, kept her head down on that topic (unlike my brothers anyway).
The point however stands, how can anyone male comment on this topic at all?

Well, I've met pro-life women, both on the internet, and in real life.

How is Woman On The Bus Who Quoted Propaganda At ME for a name? Or I could link to newspaper articles about pro-life women, perhaps?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-452818/The-doctor-Why-Im-passionately-abortion.html

 

[RobCoxxy]

Ouch, sorry OP, I hope I didn't offend you by stating I'm illiterate and have better grammar than you.

Lets face it, this thread is a troll thread, I love the Escapist and the handling of these sort of things, "fuck it lets ignore the OP and talk amongst ourselves".

True. But OT, abortion isn't murder.
Plus, would you rather remove a mess of cells that will Eventually develop consciousness, or raise a kid you don't want (therefore, do not love. That's gotta hurt little fetus' feelings) and cannot provide for?

OP fails at realising this.

 

[thingymuwatsit]

simply put, its situational. The foetus doesn't have higher brain functions until many weeks in, before that it is just a series of cells. Alternatively (despite law preventing it) after those few weeks the foetus can feel, and that includes pain. Imagine a worse pain than being strapped to a life support machine and suddenly being cut away from it, soon after being dumped in a bucket.
short answer: it depends.

 

[Maze1125]

The point however stands, how can anyone male comment on this topic at all?

Easy, men can be fathers and approximately 50% of babies are male. It's hardly the case the men have no investment in this discussion.

So tell me, what risk for your health do you bear as a father to be? What pain do you suffer? What inconveniences regarding your lifestyle do you have to tolerate? True, it takes two initially (though science is on to that problem), but aside from responsibility, the physical price is exclusively paid by the female part, and it should be hers to decide if she is willing to pay that price.
And of course, you ignore the fact, that pregnancy happens without a caring, responsible partner in place. There's rape, there's failing protection methods and naturally, it's a lot easier for the person to turn tail and flee responsibility, that does not have to wear all the evidence. And still, you claim the right to tell all those women to suck it up, and life with it, because they can put it up for adoption? Excuse me, but are you out of your mind?

Where did I say any of that?
All I did was point out how men have a stake in the discussion. Which is what you asked me.

 

[BringBackBuck]

The point however stands, how can anyone male comment on this topic at all?

Easy, men can be fathers and approximately 50% of babies are male. It's hardly the case the men have no investment in this discussion.

So tell me, what risk for your health do you bear as a father to be? What pain do you suffer? What inconveniences regarding your lifestyle do you have to tolerate? True, it takes two initially (though science is on to that problem), but aside from responsibility, the physical price is exclusively paid by the female part, and it should be hers to decide if she is willing to pay that price.
And of course, you ignore the fact, that pregnancy happens without a caring, responsible partner in place. There's rape, there's failing protection methods and naturally, it's a lot easier for the person to turn tail and flee responsibility, that does not have to wear all the evidence. And still, you claim the right to tell all those women to suck it up, and life with it, because they can put it up for adoption? Excuse me, but are you out of your mind?

Physical pain? not much.
Inconveniences regarding lifestyle? 18 years of child support or if you actually stay around to be a parent to the child, then probably the biggest single change to your lifestyle you will ever experience.
Surely men are entitled to some input into whether their genetic offspring are brought into the world?

 

[Arehexes]

If your prolife, then you should really stop eating plants and animals and taking medicine to kill bacteria. If your not for taking life of a baby then why do you think you can take the life of a animal to eat or a plant to eat, or a bacteria to feel good?

 

[BringBackBuck]

If your prolife, then you should really stop eating plants and animals and taking medicine to kill bacteria. If your not for taking life of a baby then why do you think you can take the life of a animal to eat or a plant to eat, or a bacteria to feel good?

Simple. Human life is more valuable than animal/plant/bacterial life.

 

[Keava]

Is masturbation murder? Is safe sex murder? Is premature ejaculation murder? In all those cases you are in theory "killing" possible future life. Each time a woman in her fertile days doesn't have sex, she kills a possible life too because those eggs will decay eventually.
Women are born with around 400 000 possible eggs, while during the reproductive years only around 400-500 evolves to a state of true egg that can be used for reproduction. In theory, we "murder" thousands of possible lives by just living and few hundreds more for not breeding every month.

 

[Zannah]

Where did I say any of that?
All I did was point out how men have a stake in the discussion. Which is what you asked me.

First off all, you fail to give proper reasoning for that (as I explained above), secondly, by joining sides with the 'abortion is murder' argument(which I felt you did, feel free to correct me), that is what you implied, or what those people imply (unless of course, they also imply that murder isn't all that bad)

Physical pain? not much.
Inconveniences regarding lifestyle? 18 years of child support or if you actually stay around to be a parent to the child, then probably the biggest single change to your lifestyle you will ever experience.
Surely men are entitled to some input into whether their genetic offspring are brought into the world?

And the women does not have to look after the child for 18 years? Besides, of course, no woman should a bear a child without the respective mans consent. But that also works the other way around. The 'abortion is murder'-people don't get this however, and claim that the man has the right to say 'hah, we slept together, no you have to bear my child, because abortion is murder'.

 

[BringBackBuck]

Is masturbation murder? Is safe sex murder? Is premature ejaculation murder? In all those cases you are in theory "killing" possible future life. Each time a woman in her fertile days doesn't have sex, she kills a possible life too because those eggs will decay eventually.
Women are born with around 400 000 possible eggs, while during the reproductive years only around 400-500 evolves to a state of true egg that can be used for reproduction. In theory, we "murder" thousands of possible lives by just living and few hundreds more for not breeding every month.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that life exists pre-fertilization.

Which always makes me think of that Monty Python sketch


Nor is anyone arguing that killing a child once born isn't murder.

It's the bit in between which is the grey area.