Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[kouriichi]

As said before, a number is defined as an abstract mathematical concept for measuring things. This clearly means zero is a number. It's a number unlike any other, as it represents the absence of value, and something has to. Zero is definitely a number, it's just a very unique one. It's different from mathematical concepts like infinity, which isn't a number, since it lacks a specific value.

But if its representing nothing, then it doesnt have a value, and numbers have values.

infinity isnt a number eather. Its a word xD

Infinity is a symbol and mathematical concept.

Zero represents a lack of value. Specifically it's the value of nothing.

Zero is used to do basic math with things. If you have 20$ in your bank account, and write a check for 20$, you still have a value assigned to your account, which is nothing AKA 0. 0 is the value of nothing. Many thing have zero value.

FYI zero is also an EVEN number. Zero has been used as, and called a number since 700BC in Babylon. Though it didn't look the same as it does now.

Not to mention one of it's primary purposes as a placeholder.

So? You just kinda made my next argument for me. It like our dating system.
Its been called a number since 700 Before Christ.
Why do we still use "B.C." even if we dont belive christ existed?
Because its easyer. We dont want to change things. 0 is a number, because weve been using it as one since 95,999,700. ((see what i did there? because the planet is 96 million years old.))

Its easyer to have something in its place even if its not there.
People also thought the world was flat, the center of the galaxy, and if you went against god youd get struck by lighteneing.

I dont want to start a religious debate here, but its something that we never grew as a society past. 0 is a number because it was used that way thousands of years, and no one wants to change it.

Oh, and it cant be an even number because its not a number it has no value to be even.

It's actually BCE now, sorry I made a typo. I meant BCE (Before Common Era) not BC.

Okay, I might blow your mind here, but be prepared.

i is a number.

It's an imaginary number.

It's still a number accepted by the math community.

There are many more IMAGINARY or IRRATIONAL NUMBERS in math.

They are still numbers, my friend. Just because they don't fit the typical mold, doesn't make them less of a number.

I dunno about BCE. i saw my little cousins home work and they use B.C.

But im not arguing I is not a number. Im arguing that 0 is not. Its a palce holder. it represent nothing. its value is nothing. it has no reason to exist other then ease of use.

its definition is "An abstract entity used to describe quantity", when there is no quantity to describe of the qauntity is 0. Which in its own is kinda a paradox.

 

[kouriichi]

Cake is for everyone, like freedom.

Do you think we should get back to the matter at hand?

No shoosh.
be quiet!!
you'll ruin our fun~!

 

[KarumaK]

Do you think we should get back to the matter at hand?

Not really it's a stupid question zero is a number and has been for ________ years and will be for the foreseeable future.

If the question revolved whether zero could actively be counted as a real value, or perhaps around whether having an actual number to represent nothing as a quantity was worthwhile, or even if zero should be a number it would be a slightly better topic, though still in the end rather pointless.

As is the question is: Is Zero a number?
The answer is: Yes, yes it is.

 

[Zacharine]

0 is a number because it was used that way thousands of years, and no one wants to change it.

Rather no. Just to point this out, mathematics is a fully artificial system. We can declare what axioms apply and do not apply, based on the situation. We can ignore whatever rules we wish, if we so declare, but that means we cannot use rules that require those that we decided to ignore.

For example, Euclidean and Non-Euclidean geometry.

Or ten-dimensional vector calculus. No-one cares if ten dimensions actually exist or not. We still can and do calculate such things.

A number need not denote anything in relation to reality, in order to still be a number. Just like an equation need not correspond to anything in reality to still be an equation. Because we created the realm of mathematics. We decided the rules. We apply and ignore those rules as situations require.

Zero is a number of absence, and vital to any kind of arithmetics. Sure, one can construct mathematical systems without it, but those are surprisingly basic and of little real-world utility in comparison to systems with a zero.

So what your saying is im basically right with the idea 0 is useless as a number, and we could do without?

You apparently stopped reading halfway trough.

WE can do without zero. It's just that we loose every advance made in math during the past 2000 years.

If you declare the axiom of zero to be nonexistant in a mathematic system, you cannot use any formula, rule or axiom that includes the number zero.

Such a system is highly limited, and of little real-world utility. For example, you can't even calculate a simply physics equation like F=ma without the number zero.

You can't have a computer without a number, as all the circuits are based on the binary system of 0(no current) and 1 (current), and all operations are done in binary.

That its only really a number when it has to exist when its used to forward someone agenda?

Define how you use the word 'number', as it seems you are operation on a nonstandard definition of it.

Is i a number? i is defined as "i squared is equal to -1".
Is -1 a number? it denotes the negation of a positive number.
is lim (x->0) x a number? It has no calculateable value, but is one infitesimal step above zero in the line of Real Numbers, or R

If these are numbers, why is not zero, the number that denotes absence, not a number?

 

[TheKwertyeweyoppe]

Yes, it's a numerical representation of 'nil' and also represents 'off' in Binary.

the digit zero represents one thing thats 'off', the number 0 represents every single digital switch being 'off',and that doesn't just mean shutting down or whatever.

 

[Nylarathotep]

This reminds me of how much the church apparently hated arabic numbers when they were first introduced to europe.

Also, I direct your attention to your own post;

I claim that zero is more of a concept than a number.

So...a "number" is not a conceptual representation of a given quantity of "things?"

 

[righthead]

Is nothing, or what might otherwise be called the null value or zero a number? Being a mathematics major with aspirations of going on to graduate school I feel that I encounter it far to often in too many contexts to be able to make a complete philosophical argument as to why it should or should not be considered a number. However, in the more abstract concepts of mathematics it definitely has a purpose. As the identity, 0 provides the same service to addition as 1 provides to multiplication.

The identity in other circumstances can be anything that maps each object to itself in a group of objects acted upon by an operator. For example if you were to look at a triangle the ways you could rotate or flip it so that the triangle looks positioned the same whether or not the corners have exchanged places, the identity would be to simply not move it. This lack of action can be loosely referred to as nothing, Yet it is something that gives a valid result and so must be included as part of the set of possible actions that make the triangle appear to be the same way.

In a similar fashion I believe that zero is a number simply because it must be categorized with other numbers for the purpose of dealing with no change in addition. It may not be necessarily philosophically appropriate to call it a number, but it is such a mathematical convenience to call it such that it would be almost masochistic to not do so.

Simply put I believe zero is a number because mathematicians call it a number, and they should know. To argue otherwise philosophically would be akin to arguing something doesn't belong in a category that convention determines to be in such a category (which I don't claim to be necessarily faulty). To argue otherwise mathematically would be a contraction of many existent conventions and would probably require a reworking of the whole of mathematics on the most rigorous level.

 

[kouriichi]

0 is a number because it was used that way thousands of years, and no one wants to change it.

Rather no. Just to point this out, mathematics is a fully artificial system. We can declare what axioms apply and do not apply, based on the situation. We can ignore whatever rules we wish, if we so declare, but that means we cannot use rules that require those that we decided to ignore.

For example, Euclidean and Non-Euclidean geometry.

Or ten-dimensional vector calculus. No-one cares if ten dimensions actually exist or not. We still can and do calculate such things.

A number need not denote anything in relation to reality, in order to still be a number. Just like an equation need not correspond to anything in reality to still be an equation. Because we created the realm of mathematics. We decided the rules. We apply and ignore those rules as situations require.

Zero is a number of absence, and vital to any kind of arithmetics. Sure, one can construct mathematical systems without it, but those are surprisingly basic and of little real-world utility in comparison to systems with a zero.

So what your saying is im basically right with the idea 0 is useless as a number, and we could do without?

You apparently stopped reading halfway trough.

WE can do without zero. It's just that we loose every advance made in math during the past 2000 years.

If you declare the axiom of zero to be nonexistant in a mathematic system, you cannot use any formula, rule or axiom that includes the number zero.

Such a system is highly limited, and of little real-world utility. For example, you can't even calculate a simply physics equation like F=ma without the number zero.

You can't have a computer without a number, as all the circuits are based on the binary system of 0(no current) and 1 (current), and all operations are done in binary.

That its only really a number when it has to exist when its used to forward someone agenda?

Define how you use the word 'number', as it seems you are operation on a nonstandard definition of it.

Is i a number? i is defined as "i squared is equal to -1".
Is -1 a number? it denotes the negation of a positive number.
is lim (x->0) x a number? It has no calculateable value, but is one infitesimal step above zero in the line of Real Numbers, or R

If these are numbers, why is not zero, the number that denotes absence, not a number?

Because its value is not a value. You put numbers to objects, and it will make some sense.
-1 is a number, because you can have had something removed.
"I had a box full of books and i lost one." You could lable a box full of books, "Books -1" and it would make sense. there is 1 book taken out or missing.

You can have a book -1 page. And if you found that book, it would be the opposite, 1 complete book.

0's value is that of nothing. So it filling in the absences of something is pointless, because what its filling in would most likely be what? Nothing xD

 

[KarumaK]

SNIP*
More lies from the wolf.
I told you to stop taking one thing and calling it another. I am not a commie, communism is the belief that all deserts and people need to follow a strict pattern to be acceptable. This is your belief, not mine. Liberals like you say pie is not good with ice cream, when you say that you are taking away my freedom of belief in typical liberal fashion. Maybe not everyone likes ice cream on pie, I respect that, but I believe we need more than ice cream. For that matter, i believe we need more than desert. I believe we need freedom, something you liberals know nothing about. I believe we need a choice in our desert, and pie is the only desert that allows this freedom. There is no such thing as a meat cake or a sugar free cake, these are facts. Your just making things up to brainwash people and I find it revolting.

When Hitler first wanted to seize control, his first act was endorsing cake. It was perfect in his sick mind, everyone eating cake so people unable to tolerate the high level of sugar would be forced to die. The problem was too many rebels disliked this idea so they ate pie, and the nazis tried to put a stop to this. They started with the pie eaters, then the conservative Christians, by the end nobody was left to stop them except the Americans.

I just read a history book, and I'll be honest, it scared the living shit out of me. Please read one, it has so much information and now I see it happening all over again. If we don't do something to stop these cake pushing fascists, nobody will be left to stop them this time.

Hah the only wolf here is you, here to pray on our righteous flock. You deny your commie origin espousing freedom while condemning all deserts not pie. You call me a liberal then you say I do not want freedom? Choose little commie if freedom is not what I want how can I be liberal? If I consider ice cream to improve cake how can I deny choice in our sweet after-meal? And most importantly how DARE you deny the existence of cake variety?! No we'll not fall for you devil's tongue today you monster you. You will not claim pie to be the domain of freedom so long as cake and its delicious allies stand together. Cookie is with us, donut is with us, ice cream is with us, candy is with us! We stand an alliance of freedom against that most heinous of tyrants!

You fool so deep into your pie propaganda that you cannot see the facts so easily visible to anyone. Hitler devoured only pie, every second of every day, it is this of course that led to his great evil. He was but a man how could he withstand the corrupting influence of the dark pastry.

And in the last move left you claim that your history book delivered you this truth? This pie endorsed madness, I can't help but wonder at how deep this has gotten. Fascism you claim... I know fascism my friend and it is a 3 letter word for EVIL.

It should be recognized that no form of desert is absolutely perfect. Some are better and sometimes it can be difficult to tell which is best, often times the most fervent believers are not evil or tyrannical but simply misled. What's most important is we all eat bacon.

Bacon is a glorious treat I'll accept, and far be it from one so humble as me to claim cake is perfect, but to acknowledge pie as an equal?! Such an affront to our delicious honor cannot be sustained with no good faith to rely on.

HOW DARE YOU!
HOW DARE YOU SIR, NO sir is what you call a respectable human being. HOW DARE YOU CAKE EATER!
How dare you deny what happened during the holocaust? HOW DARE YOU!
What's next, your going to tell me cake was persecuted and pie was his favorite pastry? LIES!
I can't even....DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY!
Up in the attics, where christian conservatives hid from the nazis (only until they grow in numbers for them to overthrow the nazis, after all they wouldn't just hide all the time like SOME PEOPLE MIGHT) they lived on pie. Without pie, they would have abandoned their beliefs and let the cake induced diabetes kill them off as Hitler intended BUT THEY HELD STRONG. The pie kept them strong. They knew they needed to keep living, so that they may continue to taste the glorious freedom of pie.
Is there such a thing as "American as apple cake" NO! BECAUSE YOU LIBERALS DON'T ALLOW APPLES IN YOUR PRECIOUS NAZI CAKE!
HOW DARE YOU!

And there it is, vindication. Notice how even the false logic the pie shover had before disintegrates entirely in the face of truth. The raving of a brainwashed zealot sounds throughout brought short by the unbreakable wall of truth. You corrupt the truth of such a dark event with wild lies about Christians and Nazis. Pie is the source of the evil that was Nazi Germany it is the very teat, from which madman are nurtured.

And were it not for pie the Nazi party would never have risen to power, free pie for all at the meetings and the corruption spreads. With the spread of pie came the spread of hate, the spread of fear, the spread of TRUE EVIL. There is no such thing as "American as apple cake" because it is not a national truth but a GLOBAL truth.

Cake is for everyone, like freedom.

LOOK AT THE CAKE EATING WORLD AROUND YOU!
Freedom a universal concept? LIES! Freedom was invented in America, the rest of the world just haven't had freedom spread their yet.
I can't believe you would lie about the....GRRR....HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT!
READ A HISTORY BOOK YOU....GAH!!!!


GET OFF MY THREAD!!!!!!! GET OFF MY THREAD you little PINHEAD!

GAAAHD!! I am losing my MIND today....

There may just be hope for you yet, THAT my friend is the shining light of TRUTH beaming into your head.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIVE LIKE THIS! YOU DON'T NEED TO LIVE IN FEAR! We can help you we can protect you from pie, come with me and be released from the darkness! Come with me and be cleansed of your sin! We can save you ALL of you if you'd just let the truth be revealed.

Realize the truth my friend, throw off the shackles of hate and suffering realize your freedom and you will know happiness.

Take a moment, have a slice of cake... and serenity is yours.

 

[Zacharine]

Because its value is not a value.

A contradiction in terms.

You put numbers to objects, and it will make some sense.

Show me Pi anything. Precisely Pi anything.

Write down the number lim (x->0) x

Show me i apples.

Either you must reject all these as numbers, or accept 0 as a number.

0's value is that of nothing. So it filling in the absences of something is pointless, because what its filling in would most likely be what? Nothing xD

So the binary system that your computer operates on is pointless. Gotcha.

So being able to differentiate between
1000
and
1

is pointless. Gotcha.

Again, define what a number is, according to you.

 

[righthead]

SNIP*
More lies from the wolf.
I told you to stop taking one thing and calling it another. I am not a commie, communism is the belief that all deserts and people need to follow a strict pattern to be acceptable. This is your belief, not mine. Liberals like you say pie is not good with ice cream, when you say that you are taking away my freedom of belief in typical liberal fashion. Maybe not everyone likes ice cream on pie, I respect that, but I believe we need more than ice cream. For that matter, i believe we need more than desert. I believe we need freedom, something you liberals know nothing about. I believe we need a choice in our desert, and pie is the only desert that allows this freedom. There is no such thing as a meat cake or a sugar free cake, these are facts. Your just making things up to brainwash people and I find it revolting.

When Hitler first wanted to seize control, his first act was endorsing cake. It was perfect in his sick mind, everyone eating cake so people unable to tolerate the high level of sugar would be forced to die. The problem was too many rebels disliked this idea so they ate pie, and the nazis tried to put a stop to this. They started with the pie eaters, then the conservative Christians, by the end nobody was left to stop them except the Americans.

I just read a history book, and I'll be honest, it scared the living shit out of me. Please read one, it has so much information and now I see it happening all over again. If we don't do something to stop these cake pushing fascists, nobody will be left to stop them this time.

Hah the only wolf here is you, here to pray on our righteous flock. You deny your commie origin espousing freedom while condemning all deserts not pie. You call me a liberal then you say I do not want freedom? Choose little commie if freedom is not what I want how can I be liberal? If I consider ice cream to improve cake how can I deny choice in our sweet after-meal? And most importantly how DARE you deny the existence of cake variety?! No we'll not fall for you devil's tongue today you monster you. You will not claim pie to be the domain of freedom so long as cake and its delicious allies stand together. Cookie is with us, donut is with us, ice cream is with us, candy is with us! We stand an alliance of freedom against that most heinous of tyrants!

You fool so deep into your pie propaganda that you cannot see the facts so easily visible to anyone. Hitler devoured only pie, every second of every day, it is this of course that led to his great evil. He was but a man how could he withstand the corrupting influence of the dark pastry.

And in the last move left you claim that your history book delivered you this truth? This pie endorsed madness, I can't help but wonder at how deep this has gotten. Fascism you claim... I know fascism my friend and it is a 3 letter word for EVIL.

It should be recognized that no form of desert is absolutely perfect. Some are better and sometimes it can be difficult to tell which is best, often times the most fervent believers are not evil or tyrannical but simply misled. What's most important is we all eat bacon.

Bacon is a glorious treat I'll accept, and far be it from one so humble as me to claim cake is perfect, but to acknowledge pie as an equal?! Such an affront to our delicious honor cannot be sustained with no good faith to rely on.

HOW DARE YOU!
HOW DARE YOU SIR, NO sir is what you call a respectable human being. HOW DARE YOU CAKE EATER!
How dare you deny what happened during the holocaust? HOW DARE YOU!
What's next, your going to tell me cake was persecuted and pie was his favorite pastry? LIES!
I can't even....DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY!
Up in the attics, where christian conservatives hid from the nazis (only until they grow in numbers for them to overthrow the nazis, after all they wouldn't just hide all the time like SOME PEOPLE MIGHT) they lived on pie. Without pie, they would have abandoned their beliefs and let the cake induced diabetes kill them off as Hitler intended BUT THEY HELD STRONG. The pie kept them strong. They knew they needed to keep living, so that they may continue to taste the glorious freedom of pie.
Is there such a thing as "American as apple cake" NO! BECAUSE YOU LIBERALS DON'T ALLOW APPLES IN YOUR PRECIOUS NAZI CAKE!
HOW DARE YOU!

And there it is, vindication. Notice how even the false logic the pie shover had before disintegrates entirely in the face of truth. The raving of a brainwashed zealot sounds throughout brought short by the unbreakable wall of truth. You corrupt the truth of such a dark event with wild lies about Christians and Nazis. Pie is the source of the evil that was Nazi Germany it is the very teat, from which madman are nurtured.

And were it not for pie the Nazi party would never have risen to power, free pie for all at the meetings and the corruption spreads. With the spread of pie came the spread of hate, the spread of fear, the spread of TRUE EVIL. There is no such thing as "American as apple cake" because it is not a national truth but a GLOBAL truth.

Cake is for everyone, like freedom.

LOOK AT THE CAKE EATING WORLD AROUND YOU!
Freedom a universal concept? LIES! Freedom was invented in America, the rest of the world just haven't had freedom spread their yet.
I can't believe you would lie about the....GRRR....HOW COULD YOU SAY THAT!
READ A HISTORY BOOK YOU....GAH!!!!


GET OFF MY THREAD!!!!!!! GET OFF MY THREAD you little....PINHEAD!

GAAAHD!! I am losing my MIND today....

Actually freedom was invented in France, it was first USED in America.

 

[Littlee300]

I feel it is a number, it can be used to represent a value. I'm sure I used the wrong words for what I am trying to say. I'm tired don't blame me.

It represents NO value though
O:

 

[righthead]

Show me Pi anything. Precisely Pi anything.

Not that I disagree but look at a circle and you'll see precisely pi diameters stretched around the circumference.

 

[Zacharine]

Show me Pi anything. Precisely Pi anything.

Not that I disagree but look at a circle and you'll see precisely pi diameters stretched around the circumference.

Both of which are abstract concepts with no real-world equivivalents.

There exists no perfect circle in an actual physical form. The guy seems to hold that in high regard.

One cannot measure Pi in the real world. One can count in via the geometry of circle.

 

[kouriichi]

Because its value is not a value.

A contradiction in terms.

You put numbers to objects, and it will make some sense.

Show me Pi anything. Precisely Pi anything.

Write down the number lim (x->0) x

Show me i apples.

Either you must reject all these as numbers, or accept 0 as a number.

0's value is that of nothing. So it filling in the absences of something is pointless, because what its filling in would most likely be what? Nothing xD

So the binary system that your computer operates on is pointless. Gotcha.

So being able to differentiate between
1000
and
1

is pointless. Gotcha.

Again, define what a number is, according to you.

your taking my words the wrong way.
1000 is not 0.
0 is a place holder. using it is more or less pointless.
Im not saying it shouldent exist, im saying its not a number.
binary code doesnt run off just 0's. its one long string of 1's and 0's.
0 itself is pointless.

A number is something even slightly tangable. number is something that has value, describes quantity, and can be assigned to something.

1 is a number. there can be 1 cat.
2 is a number. there can be 2 cats.
294631946 is a number. Because there can be 294631946 cats.

Sure thats alot of cats, but the number can be assigned to something and have it be tangable.

You cannot put 0 to any object, because that object would not exist. 0 cats would just be nothing. because the act of putting 0 with cats nullifys the cat all together. It would just be 0. a place holder.
Like the underscore.
Is it a letter or number? no, its a place holder for a letter or number to be inserted.