Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[righthead]

Alright, troll or not, I'll bite.

you can do math without using 0. I belive its not a number, but its a space holder. its there for other numbers to be put. its an empty shell ((hehehe, pun)) waiting to be filled.

Exactly how many elephants do you have in your left hand right now?

And there is no math without zero. You can't do math without arithmetics, right? Take away arithmetics and it all crumbles away into oblivion, much like the Colossus. Arithmetics, in turn, rests on two pillars - Addition and Multiplication.

Addition requires an Identity Element, zero, defined as x + 0 = x;
Multiplication requires a Zero Element, zero, defined as x * 0 = 0;

Zero is not always a natural number, but it is always a number. Zero is the cornerstone of mathematics and it's quite a useful number in everyday life, as well. Please stop using the same arguments over and over.

you just used the same arguement as 3 other people and are telling me not to XD
Ive never had any elephants. I dont have 0 elephants, because ive never had any elephants to begin with.

And your argument is you HAVE TO HAVE 0.
You dont require 0. You use it. Its a tool. A non-existant in reality tool.
you cant show/touch/feel/see or kiss 0.
Your trying to say, 0 is a number because everything requires it in someway.

Im trying to say 0 is nothing. And nothing is not 0. I have nothing in my hand. Not 0.

Hold up your and. is it 0 items in your hand, or just your hand? Your forcing 0 to be the subject. Your using something un-naturally for purposes to further your side of the argument.

Show me 0 objects. Can you show nothing? No, because nothing doesnt exist. 0 has no value. if 0 has no value, it cant be use to add or subtract without getting the same number.

your trying to same its a number because its aquired. Im trying to say its not, because its not required. Its not needed. its doesnt need to exist.

How about this argument. That zero is necessary because you need something that you can't divide by.

Consider:

Let a=1 and b=1 then
a=b
a^2=ab
a^2-b^2=ab-b^2
(a+b)(a-b)=b(a-b)
a+b=b
1+1=1
2=1


the argument falls apart because you divide by (a-b) which is zero (not nothing or the division would not have had a representation.)

EDIT: I just divided by zero. OH SHI-

But thats what im saying.
0 is a representation as you said. Its not a number.
Its filler. You could say nothing insted of 0 and it would mean the same thing.
Its there for ease of use. a fork is a tool, but you cant open a door with it. ((i tryed and lets just say im out 75 bucks for a new door.))

Its easyer then saying/writing/typing nothing.
Its not a number because it has no value. its an empty spot. for usefulness, on a scale of 1-10, its 0. not on the list. XD

except if I was dividing by nothing instead of zero I'd have to stop at (a+b)(a-b)=b(a-b) because if I divide both sides of the equation by nothing I'd still have (a+b)(a-b) = b(a-b)

No, youd just have nothng. You would have ended the problem.
That would be the end. Nothing left. Problem solved.

if you shot 5 kitten stompers, there would be no more stomped kittens. there wouldent be 0 kitten stompers, there would be 5 kitten stomper bodys.

so you admit that dividing by nothing provides a different result than dividing by zero.

My argument is that you cant divide by 0, because its not a number to divide by.
youd be divide by nothing.

you have $100. Divide nothing from it. Nothing would happen.

NOOOOOOTHING!!

but I divided by a-b which by definition was 1-1=0. Number or not, it was a demonstration of the possibility of the action as much as a demonstration of a fault with the process.

 

[Zakarath]

The way you phrase this, what you are actually doing is dividing by one. And yes, in that case, nothing changes.

 

[kouriichi]

Alright, troll or not, I'll bite.

you can do math without using 0. I belive its not a number, but its a space holder. its there for other numbers to be put. its an empty shell ((hehehe, pun)) waiting to be filled.

Exactly how many elephants do you have in your left hand right now?

And there is no math without zero. You can't do math without arithmetics, right? Take away arithmetics and it all crumbles away into oblivion, much like the Colossus. Arithmetics, in turn, rests on two pillars - Addition and Multiplication.

Addition requires an Identity Element, zero, defined as x + 0 = x;
Multiplication requires a Zero Element, zero, defined as x * 0 = 0;

Zero is not always a natural number, but it is always a number. Zero is the cornerstone of mathematics and it's quite a useful number in everyday life, as well. Please stop using the same arguments over and over.

you just used the same arguement as 3 other people and are telling me not to XD
Ive never had any elephants. I dont have 0 elephants, because ive never had any elephants to begin with.

And your argument is you HAVE TO HAVE 0.
You dont require 0. You use it. Its a tool. A non-existant in reality tool.
you cant show/touch/feel/see or kiss 0.
Your trying to say, 0 is a number because everything requires it in someway.

Im trying to say 0 is nothing. And nothing is not 0. I have nothing in my hand. Not 0.

Hold up your and. is it 0 items in your hand, or just your hand? Your forcing 0 to be the subject. Your using something un-naturally for purposes to further your side of the argument.

Show me 0 objects. Can you show nothing? No, because nothing doesnt exist. 0 has no value. if 0 has no value, it cant be use to add or subtract without getting the same number.

your trying to same its a number because its aquired. Im trying to say its not, because its not required. Its not needed. its doesnt need to exist.

I would say that the way you define what constitutes a number is flawed. You seem to define "number" as a value that describes a concrete, physical quantity. And if this definition was correct, then no, zero would not be a number.

However what a "number" is is a "An abstract entity used to describe quantity."-wiktionary (yes I use wiktionary)
Note that that definition has zero (har har har) mentions of concrete existence or physicality. Numbers serve more purpose than counting how many apples you own or how many stars are in the sky, and many of their applications do not have or need physical references. And in many of these applications zero serves a critical role.

But then since god is an abstract entity used to describe creation, he also must exist!!

xD theyer definition basically says, it exists to be useful.

I cant name a single critical role 0 has ever played. Even fuel gauges dont use 0. they use an E. i cant think of anything more important then your car having "0 fuel".

its application is based on the idea that you end and start with nothing. But you cant end or start with nothing in reality. So it is abstract, but you cant even use it to "Describe quantity."

Why? because theyers no quantitiy to describe.

 

[righthead]

SNIP*
More lies from the wolf.
I told you to stop taking one thing and calling it another. I am not a commie, communism is the belief that all deserts and people need to follow a strict pattern to be acceptable. This is your belief, not mine. Liberals like you say pie is not good with ice cream, when you say that you are taking away my freedom of belief in typical liberal fashion. Maybe not everyone likes ice cream on pie, I respect that, but I believe we need more than ice cream. For that matter, i believe we need more than desert. I believe we need freedom, something you liberals know nothing about. I believe we need a choice in our desert, and pie is the only desert that allows this freedom. There is no such thing as a meat cake or a sugar free cake, these are facts. Your just making things up to brainwash people and I find it revolting.

When Hitler first wanted to seize control, his first act was endorsing cake. It was perfect in his sick mind, everyone eating cake so people unable to tolerate the high level of sugar would be forced to die. The problem was too many rebels disliked this idea so they ate pie, and the nazis tried to put a stop to this. They started with the pie eaters, then the conservative Christians, by the end nobody was left to stop them except the Americans.

I just read a history book, and I'll be honest, it scared the living shit out of me. Please read one, it has so much information and now I see it happening all over again. If we don't do something to stop these cake pushing fascists, nobody will be left to stop them this time.

Hah the only wolf here is you, here to pray on our righteous flock. You deny your commie origin espousing freedom while condemning all deserts not pie. You call me a liberal then you say I do not want freedom? Choose little commie if freedom is not what I want how can I be liberal? If I consider ice cream to improve cake how can I deny choice in our sweet after-meal? And most importantly how DARE you deny the existence of cake variety?! No we'll not fall for you devil's tongue today you monster you. You will not claim pie to be the domain of freedom so long as cake and its delicious allies stand together. Cookie is with us, donut is with us, ice cream is with us, candy is with us! We stand an alliance of freedom against that most heinous of tyrants!

You fool so deep into your pie propaganda that you cannot see the facts so easily visible to anyone. Hitler devoured only pie, every second of every day, it is this of course that led to his great evil. He was but a man how could he withstand the corrupting influence of the dark pastry.

And in the last move left you claim that your history book delivered you this truth? This pie endorsed madness, I can't help but wonder at how deep this has gotten. Fascism you claim... I know fascism my friend and it is a 3 letter word for EVIL.

It should be recognized that no form of desert is absolutely perfect. Some are better and sometimes it can be difficult to tell which is best, often times the most fervent believers are not evil or tyrannical but simply misled. What's most important is we all eat bacon.

Bacon is a glorious treat I'll accept, and far be it from one so humble as me to claim cake is perfect, but to acknowledge pie as an equal?! Such an affront to our delicious honor cannot be sustained with no good faith to rely on.

HOW DARE YOU!
HOW DARE YOU SIR, NO sir is what you call a respectable human being. HOW DARE YOU CAKE EATER!
How dare you deny what happened during the holocaust? HOW DARE YOU!
What's next, your going to tell me cake was persecuted and pie was his favorite pastry? LIES!
I can't even....DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY!
Up in the attics, where christian conservatives hid from the nazis (only until they grow in numbers for them to overthrow the nazis, after all they wouldn't just hide all the time like SOME PEOPLE MIGHT) they lived on pie. Without pie, they would have abandoned their beliefs and let the cake induced diabetes kill them off as Hitler intended BUT THEY HELD STRONG. The pie kept them strong. They knew they needed to keep living, so that they may continue to taste the glorious freedom of pie.
Is there such a thing as "American as apple cake" NO! BECAUSE YOU LIBERALS DON'T ALLOW APPLES IN YOUR PRECIOUS NAZI CAKE!
HOW DARE YOU!

what are your stances on fruitcake?

 

[kouriichi]

HOW DARE YOU!
HOW DARE YOU SIR, NO sir is what you call a respectable human being. HOW DARE YOU CAKE EATER!
How dare you deny what happened during the holocaust? HOW DARE YOU!
What's next, your going to tell me cake was persecuted and pie was his favorite pastry? LIES!
I can't even....DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY!
Up in the attics, where christian conservatives hid from the nazis (only until they grow in numbers for them to overthrow the nazis, after all they wouldn't just hide all the time like SOME PEOPLE MIGHT) they lived on pie. Without pie, they would have abandoned their beliefs and let the cake induced diabetes kill them off as Hitler intended BUT THEY HELD STRONG. The pie kept them strong. They knew they needed to keep living, so that they may continue to taste the glorious freedom of pie.
Is there such a thing as "American as apple cake" NO! BECAUSE YOU LIBERALS DON'T ALLOW APPLES IN YOUR PRECIOUS NAZI CAKE!
HOW DARE YOU!

what are your stances on fruitcake?

That was single handedly the funnyest reply i have heard all day.

 

[Atheist.]

As said before, a number is defined as an abstract mathematical concept for measuring things. This clearly means zero is a number. It's a number unlike any other, as it represents the absence of value, and something has to. Zero is definitely a number, it's just a very unique one. It's different from mathematical concepts like infinity, which isn't a number, since it lacks a specific value.

 

[kouriichi]

As said before, a number is defined as an abstract mathematical concept for measuring things. This clearly means zero is a number. It's a number unlike any other, as it represents the absence of value, and something has to. Zero is definitely a number, it's just a very unique one. It's different from mathematical concepts like infinity, which isn't a number, since it lacks a specific value.

But if its representing nothing, then it doesnt have a value, and numbers have values.

infinity isnt a number eather. Its a word xD

 

[righthead]

As said before, a number is defined as an abstract mathematical concept for measuring things. This clearly means zero is a number. It's a number unlike any other, as it represents the absence of value, and something has to. Zero is definitely a number, it's just a very unique one. It's different from mathematical concepts like infinity, which isn't a number, since it lacks a specific value.

But if its representing nothing, then it doesnt have a value, and numbers have values.

infinity isnt a number eather. Its a word xD

one doesn't exclude the other, five is a word.

 

[Ryujisama]

Very good arguments. You definitely can't be called an idiot for bringing them up. I almost started thinking about philosophy, but it's a bit late for that kind of thinking.... I'll just say that I believe that even though 0 does not have a value, it still represents a value... a placeholder, if you will... In so believing this, I say that 0 is indeed a number... but that's just me.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

Here is my logic. Is zero on the number pad on my keyboard? Yes. Therefore, it is a number. A very unique number to be sure but a number nonetheless.

I never cared for math so I don't care whether I'm right or wrong on this. I always considered it a number for the aforementioned reason.

 

[Zakarath]

Alright, troll or not, I'll bite.

you can do math without using 0. I belive its not a number, but its a space holder. its there for other numbers to be put. its an empty shell ((hehehe, pun)) waiting to be filled.

Exactly how many elephants do you have in your left hand right now?

And there is no math without zero. You can't do math without arithmetics, right? Take away arithmetics and it all crumbles away into oblivion, much like the Colossus. Arithmetics, in turn, rests on two pillars - Addition and Multiplication.

Addition requires an Identity Element, zero, defined as x + 0 = x;
Multiplication requires a Zero Element, zero, defined as x * 0 = 0;

Zero is not always a natural number, but it is always a number. Zero is the cornerstone of mathematics and it's quite a useful number in everyday life, as well. Please stop using the same arguments over and over.

you just used the same arguement as 3 other people and are telling me not to XD
Ive never had any elephants. I dont have 0 elephants, because ive never had any elephants to begin with.

And your argument is you HAVE TO HAVE 0.
You dont require 0. You use it. Its a tool. A non-existant in reality tool.
you cant show/touch/feel/see or kiss 0.
Your trying to say, 0 is a number because everything requires it in someway.

Im trying to say 0 is nothing. And nothing is not 0. I have nothing in my hand. Not 0.

Hold up your and. is it 0 items in your hand, or just your hand? Your forcing 0 to be the subject. Your using something un-naturally for purposes to further your side of the argument.

Show me 0 objects. Can you show nothing? No, because nothing doesnt exist. 0 has no value. if 0 has no value, it cant be use to add or subtract without getting the same number.

your trying to same its a number because its aquired. Im trying to say its not, because its not required. Its not needed. its doesnt need to exist.

I would say that the way you define what constitutes a number is flawed. You seem to define "number" as a value that describes a concrete, physical quantity. And if this definition was correct, then no, zero would not be a number.

However what a "number" is is a "An abstract entity used to describe quantity."-wiktionary (yes I use wiktionary)
Note that that definition has zero (har har har) mentions of concrete existence or physicality. Numbers serve more purpose than counting how many apples you own or how many stars are in the sky, and many of their applications do not have or need physical references. And in many of these applications zero serves a critical role.

But then since god is an abstract entity used to describe creation, he also must exist!!

xD theyer definition basically says, it exists to be useful.

I cant name a single critical role 0 has ever played. Even fuel gauges dont use 0. they use an E. i cant think of anything more important then your car having "0 fuel".

its application is based on the idea that you end and start with nothing. But you cant end or start with nothing in reality. So it is abstract, but you cant even use it to "Describe quantity."

Why? because theyers no quantitiy to describe.

how about this: "0 Kelvin"

 

[FluxCapacitor]

God, I wish I'd had the sense to get in on the cake vs pie ideological argument, it sounds way more fun.

 

[kouriichi]

Alright, troll or not, I'll bite.

you can do math without using 0. I belive its not a number, but its a space holder. its there for other numbers to be put. its an empty shell ((hehehe, pun)) waiting to be filled.

Exactly how many elephants do you have in your left hand right now?

And there is no math without zero. You can't do math without arithmetics, right? Take away arithmetics and it all crumbles away into oblivion, much like the Colossus. Arithmetics, in turn, rests on two pillars - Addition and Multiplication.

Addition requires an Identity Element, zero, defined as x + 0 = x;
Multiplication requires a Zero Element, zero, defined as x * 0 = 0;

Zero is not always a natural number, but it is always a number. Zero is the cornerstone of mathematics and it's quite a useful number in everyday life, as well. Please stop using the same arguments over and over.

you just used the same arguement as 3 other people and are telling me not to XD
Ive never had any elephants. I dont have 0 elephants, because ive never had any elephants to begin with.

And your argument is you HAVE TO HAVE 0.
You dont require 0. You use it. Its a tool. A non-existant in reality tool.
you cant show/touch/feel/see or kiss 0.
Your trying to say, 0 is a number because everything requires it in someway.

Im trying to say 0 is nothing. And nothing is not 0. I have nothing in my hand. Not 0.

Hold up your and. is it 0 items in your hand, or just your hand? Your forcing 0 to be the subject. Your using something un-naturally for purposes to further your side of the argument.

Show me 0 objects. Can you show nothing? No, because nothing doesnt exist. 0 has no value. if 0 has no value, it cant be use to add or subtract without getting the same number.

your trying to same its a number because its aquired. Im trying to say its not, because its not required. Its not needed. its doesnt need to exist.

I would say that the way you define what constitutes a number is flawed. You seem to define "number" as a value that describes a concrete, physical quantity. And if this definition was correct, then no, zero would not be a number.

However what a "number" is is a "An abstract entity used to describe quantity."-wiktionary (yes I use wiktionary)
Note that that definition has zero (har har har) mentions of concrete existence or physicality. Numbers serve more purpose than counting how many apples you own or how many stars are in the sky, and many of their applications do not have or need physical references. And in many of these applications zero serves a critical role.

But then since god is an abstract entity used to describe creation, he also must exist!!

xD theyer definition basically says, it exists to be useful.

I cant name a single critical role 0 has ever played. Even fuel gauges dont use 0. they use an E. i cant think of anything more important then your car having "0 fuel".

its application is based on the idea that you end and start with nothing. But you cant end or start with nothing in reality. So it is abstract, but you cant even use it to "Describe quantity."

Why? because theyers no quantitiy to describe.

how about this: "0 Kelvin"

Which ironically isnt a real 0.
Its accually −273.15 degrees Celsius.
It just sounds cool. Like Aboslute Zero~!!!!
Or Sub-Zero!!
Or MORTAL KOMBAT!!

 

[FluxCapacitor]

Actually, the 0 Celsius is the made-up zero - that's the temperature at which water freezes, whereas 0 Kelvin is the point at which matter as we know it ceases to exist (in theory). Learn to science.

 

[Coldie]

But if its representing nothing, then it doesnt have a value, and numbers have values.

infinity isnt a number eather. Its a word xD

Once again, stop arguing semantics. Sure, infinity is normally not a number (although sometimes treated as one), but there are infinite numbers. For instance, aleph-null, the smallest infinite number, is the cardinality (size) of the set of Natural numbers.

Look up Set theory and Cardinal numbers, it's quite fun.

 

[Atheist.]

As said before, a number is defined as an abstract mathematical concept for measuring things. This clearly means zero is a number. It's a number unlike any other, as it represents the absence of value, and something has to. Zero is definitely a number, it's just a very unique one. It's different from mathematical concepts like infinity, which isn't a number, since it lacks a specific value.

But if its representing nothing, then it doesnt have a value, and numbers have values.

infinity isnt a number eather. Its a word xD

Infinity is a symbol and mathematical concept.

Zero represents a lack of value. Specifically it's the value of nothing.

Zero is used to do basic math with things. If you have 20$ in your bank account, and write a check for 20$, you still have a value assigned to your account, which is nothing AKA 0. 0 is the value of nothing. Many thing have zero value.

FYI zero is also an EVEN number. Zero has been used as, and called a number since 700BC in Babylon. Though it didn't look the same as it does now.

Not to mention one of it's primary purposes as a placeholder.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I've always thought of zero as a concept myself as well. Afterall it's like I have two apples, I give you one apple so we both have an apple! Somebody came along and stole mine so now I have no apples.

I mean 'zero' almost feels like a reduction of something rather than anything ... unless you're talking about debt ... in which case the term "we're equal" or "I have no more outstanding debts" fits more nicely than "we now stand at a zero balance towards one another", or "I owe you zero" as oppose to 'nothing'.

But if zero IS a number it can't really be 'nothing' now can it? A number represents a value, and I think only modern conceptualizations of zero could ever possibly beable to give it one.