Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[FluxCapacitor]

God, I wish I'd had the sense to get in on the cake vs pie ideological argument, it sounds way more fun.

This isn't some joke sir. Fascism isn't fun. Nazis are not fun, and to even suggest such a thing is insulting.

But surely cake can only be associated with socialist French revolutionary ideas, what with Antoinette's assertion that all the peasants be allowed to eat cake - clearly their evil lie-beral hearts couldn't stomach another dessert food!

But the Nazis wouldn't know a good cake if it slapped them in the face - black forest indeed! Call it what it is: Chocoate No Trees Yes Jam cake. But they certainly knew their way around a strudel, which is just an elaborately contrived pie! Oh, god, so ideologically sugar panicking right now...

 

[BMWaugh]

Of course, I understand the other side of the argument. If you don't have any apples around, then there must be 0 apples right? This starts bringing in semantics. Yes, I have 0 apples in my room at this current time. No, that does NOT make 0 a number. I can also say no apples are in my room. Is 'no' a number? Absolutely not.

I found this to be quite an interesting read, and while I'm in no state to think about it too deeply, as I've just woken up, one thing came to mind while reading the section quoted.

If you have 1 apple in your room, you could also say that you have an apple in your room. 'An' is also not a number. As you said, it's very much an issue of semantics.

This might just give me something to ponder on the bus this morning.

I should probably say that I do think 0 is a number, but this is an interesting concept nonetheless.

 

[Zakarath]

Alright, troll or not, I'll bite.

you can do math without using 0. I belive its not a number, but its a space holder. its there for other numbers to be put. its an empty shell ((hehehe, pun)) waiting to be filled.

Exactly how many elephants do you have in your left hand right now?

And there is no math without zero. You can't do math without arithmetics, right? Take away arithmetics and it all crumbles away into oblivion, much like the Colossus. Arithmetics, in turn, rests on two pillars - Addition and Multiplication.

Addition requires an Identity Element, zero, defined as x + 0 = x;
Multiplication requires a Zero Element, zero, defined as x * 0 = 0;

Zero is not always a natural number, but it is always a number. Zero is the cornerstone of mathematics and it's quite a useful number in everyday life, as well. Please stop using the same arguments over and over.

you just used the same arguement as 3 other people and are telling me not to XD
Ive never had any elephants. I dont have 0 elephants, because ive never had any elephants to begin with.

And your argument is you HAVE TO HAVE 0.
You dont require 0. You use it. Its a tool. A non-existant in reality tool.
you cant show/touch/feel/see or kiss 0.
Your trying to say, 0 is a number because everything requires it in someway.

Im trying to say 0 is nothing. And nothing is not 0. I have nothing in my hand. Not 0.

Hold up your and. is it 0 items in your hand, or just your hand? Your forcing 0 to be the subject. Your using something un-naturally for purposes to further your side of the argument.

Show me 0 objects. Can you show nothing? No, because nothing doesnt exist. 0 has no value. if 0 has no value, it cant be use to add or subtract without getting the same number.

your trying to same its a number because its aquired. Im trying to say its not, because its not required. Its not needed. its doesnt need to exist.

I would say that the way you define what constitutes a number is flawed. You seem to define "number" as a value that describes a concrete, physical quantity. And if this definition was correct, then no, zero would not be a number.

However what a "number" is is a "An abstract entity used to describe quantity."-wiktionary (yes I use wiktionary)
Note that that definition has zero (har har har) mentions of concrete existence or physicality. Numbers serve more purpose than counting how many apples you own or how many stars are in the sky, and many of their applications do not have or need physical references. And in many of these applications zero serves a critical role.

But then since god is an abstract entity used to describe creation, he also must exist!!

xD theyer definition basically says, it exists to be useful.

I cant name a single critical role 0 has ever played. Even fuel gauges dont use 0. they use an E. i cant think of anything more important then your car having "0 fuel".

its application is based on the idea that you end and start with nothing. But you cant end or start with nothing in reality. So it is abstract, but you cant even use it to "Describe quantity."

Why? because theyers no quantitiy to describe.

how about this: "0 Kelvin"

Which ironically isnt a real 0.
Its accually -273.15 degrees Celsius.
It just sounds cool. Like Aboslute Zero~!!!!
Or Sub-Zero!!
Or MORTAL KOMBAT!!

now we are just squabbling over semantics. I could point out that it is an example of 0 being used to describe the absence of heat energy in a system, and that this means that it is a "true zero" in the sense of temperature/energy, and I could go on to list numerous examples of the importance of zero in various mathematical fields, but honesty all you are doing is trying to get me to do pointless work rather than assess your own misconceptions, and therefore you are just trolling. I see no purpose in continuing to contribute solid evidence towards 0's quality of being a number when you will intentionally continue miss the clear, basic point of what everyone has been telling you. Farewell.

 

[Zacharine]

Zero is a number.

Number, as in:

an arithmetical value, expressed by a word, symbol, or figure, representing a particular quantity.
a quantity or amount

as according to the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, 11th ed.

It is a value. It is a quantity. It is simply one that denotes absence of something.

Such as current. This transistor has energy passing trough it. We call it state 1. I flick this switch, now no current passes trough it. We call it state 0.

0 and 1. The basis of a binary system.

The examples go on, as many posters before me have pointed out.

To deny this, is to either radically redefine what a 'number' means, or to ignore the common rules of mathematics.

 

[kouriichi]

As said before, a number is defined as an abstract mathematical concept for measuring things. This clearly means zero is a number. It's a number unlike any other, as it represents the absence of value, and something has to. Zero is definitely a number, it's just a very unique one. It's different from mathematical concepts like infinity, which isn't a number, since it lacks a specific value.

But if its representing nothing, then it doesnt have a value, and numbers have values.

infinity isnt a number eather. Its a word xD

Infinity is a symbol and mathematical concept.

Zero represents a lack of value. Specifically it's the value of nothing.

Zero is used to do basic math with things. If you have 20$ in your bank account, and write a check for 20$, you still have a value assigned to your account, which is nothing AKA 0. 0 is the value of nothing. Many thing have zero value.

FYI zero is also an EVEN number. Zero has been used as, and called a number since 700BC in Babylon. Though it didn't look the same as it does now.

Not to mention one of it's primary purposes as a placeholder.

So? You just kinda made my next argument for me. It like our dating system.
Its been called a number since 700 Before Christ.
Why do we still use "B.C." even if we dont belive christ existed?
Because its easyer. We dont want to change things. 0 is a number, because weve been using it as one since 95,999,700. ((see what i did there? because the planet is 96 million years old.))

Its easyer to have something in its place even if its not there.
People also thought the world was flat, the center of the galaxy, and if you went against god youd get struck by lighteneing.

I dont want to start a religious debate here, but its something that we never grew as a society past. 0 is a number because it was used that way thousands of years, and no one wants to change it.

Oh, and it cant be an even number because its not a number it has no value to be even.

 

[kouriichi]

Alright, troll or not, I'll bite.

you can do math without using 0. I belive its not a number, but its a space holder. its there for other numbers to be put. its an empty shell ((hehehe, pun)) waiting to be filled.

Exactly how many elephants do you have in your left hand right now?

And there is no math without zero. You can't do math without arithmetics, right? Take away arithmetics and it all crumbles away into oblivion, much like the Colossus. Arithmetics, in turn, rests on two pillars - Addition and Multiplication.

Addition requires an Identity Element, zero, defined as x + 0 = x;
Multiplication requires a Zero Element, zero, defined as x * 0 = 0;

Zero is not always a natural number, but it is always a number. Zero is the cornerstone of mathematics and it's quite a useful number in everyday life, as well. Please stop using the same arguments over and over.

you just used the same arguement as 3 other people and are telling me not to XD
Ive never had any elephants. I dont have 0 elephants, because ive never had any elephants to begin with.

And your argument is you HAVE TO HAVE 0.
You dont require 0. You use it. Its a tool. A non-existant in reality tool.
you cant show/touch/feel/see or kiss 0.
Your trying to say, 0 is a number because everything requires it in someway.

Im trying to say 0 is nothing. And nothing is not 0. I have nothing in my hand. Not 0.

Hold up your and. is it 0 items in your hand, or just your hand? Your forcing 0 to be the subject. Your using something un-naturally for purposes to further your side of the argument.

Show me 0 objects. Can you show nothing? No, because nothing doesnt exist. 0 has no value. if 0 has no value, it cant be use to add or subtract without getting the same number.

your trying to same its a number because its aquired. Im trying to say its not, because its not required. Its not needed. its doesnt need to exist.

I would say that the way you define what constitutes a number is flawed. You seem to define "number" as a value that describes a concrete, physical quantity. And if this definition was correct, then no, zero would not be a number.

However what a "number" is is a "An abstract entity used to describe quantity."-wiktionary (yes I use wiktionary)
Note that that definition has zero (har har har) mentions of concrete existence or physicality. Numbers serve more purpose than counting how many apples you own or how many stars are in the sky, and many of their applications do not have or need physical references. And in many of these applications zero serves a critical role.

But then since god is an abstract entity used to describe creation, he also must exist!!

xD theyer definition basically says, it exists to be useful.

I cant name a single critical role 0 has ever played. Even fuel gauges dont use 0. they use an E. i cant think of anything more important then your car having "0 fuel".

its application is based on the idea that you end and start with nothing. But you cant end or start with nothing in reality. So it is abstract, but you cant even use it to "Describe quantity."

Why? because theyers no quantitiy to describe.

how about this: "0 Kelvin"

Which ironically isnt a real 0.
Its accually -273.15 degrees Celsius.
It just sounds cool. Like Aboslute Zero~!!!!
Or Sub-Zero!!
Or MORTAL KOMBAT!!

now we are just squabbling over semantics. I could point out that it is an example of 0 being used to describe the absence of heat energy in a system, and that this means that it is a "true zero" in the sense of temperature/energy, and I could go on to list numerous examples of the importance of zero in various mathematical fields, but honesty all you are doing is trying to get me to do pointless work rather than assess your own misconceptions, and therefore you are just trolling. I see no purpose in continuing to contribute solid evidence towards 0's quality of being a number when you will intentionally continue miss the clear, basic point of what everyone has been telling you. Farewell.

But thats the thing. XD im not trolling.
Im stating my facts and ideas. True 0 doesnt exist. What we know as "Absolute Zero" could change in less then 20 hours. We could find a point colder then that. And then that new number would be "Absolute Zero."

Zero is a place holder for another number to be put there. it is for ease of use. It shouldent be a number. even its definition pointed out earlyer, "An abstract entity used to describe quantity", it contridicts itself. Because if 0's value is nothing, then there is no quantity to describe. There by, its describing its own lack of quantitiy. Circle theory. its there because its there. Its a number because its a number.

Your saying im wrong because im not changing what the facts present to me as right. So far, i have seen no reason to change my bases of thought.

You my argument ragequiting friend are the troll

 

[krimson_dropz]

there is a philisophical argument that says that the number two is only a number and therefor relevent because we believe it is so i ask you is two a number? (this applys to all numbers)
as for your argument the theory of there MIGHT be a minute particle of apple in my room as proof of zero not being a number because there MIGHT be a minute amount of a substance that we are measuring is irrelevent because there also MIGHT NOT. and if i have "none" (or "no" or "zero") of said substance then zero has been represented in the real world.

 

[BMWaugh]

If a number can be described as 'A figure used to represent value', and zero has no value, then logically zero would not be a number./quote]

Further thought: Zero does represent a value, or at least a lack thereof. Zero, as is any number, is a concept to represent a value.

And further to my last comment; a 'pair' and a 'couple' are not numbers either, yet they represent the value of 2.

And now I'm off to work, have a good day. ;D

 

[Atheist.]

As said before, a number is defined as an abstract mathematical concept for measuring things. This clearly means zero is a number. It's a number unlike any other, as it represents the absence of value, and something has to. Zero is definitely a number, it's just a very unique one. It's different from mathematical concepts like infinity, which isn't a number, since it lacks a specific value.

But if its representing nothing, then it doesnt have a value, and numbers have values.

infinity isnt a number eather. Its a word xD

Infinity is a symbol and mathematical concept.

Zero represents a lack of value. Specifically it's the value of nothing.

Zero is used to do basic math with things. If you have 20$ in your bank account, and write a check for 20$, you still have a value assigned to your account, which is nothing AKA 0. 0 is the value of nothing. Many thing have zero value.

FYI zero is also an EVEN number. Zero has been used as, and called a number since 700BC in Babylon. Though it didn't look the same as it does now.

Not to mention one of it's primary purposes as a placeholder.

So? You just kinda made my next argument for me. It like our dating system.
Its been called a number since 700 Before Christ.
Why do we still use "B.C." even if we dont belive christ existed?
Because its easyer. We dont want to change things. 0 is a number, because weve been using it as one since 95,999,700. ((see what i did there? because the planet is 96 million years old.))

Its easyer to have something in its place even if its not there.
People also thought the world was flat, the center of the galaxy, and if you went against god youd get struck by lighteneing.

I dont want to start a religious debate here, but its something that we never grew as a society past. 0 is a number because it was used that way thousands of years, and no one wants to change it.

Oh, and it cant be an even number because its not a number it has no value to be even.

It's actually BCE now, sorry I made a typo. I meant BCE (Before Common Era) not BC.

Okay, I might blow your mind here, but be prepared.

i is a number.

It's an imaginary number.

It's still a number accepted by the math community.

There are many more IMAGINARY or IRRATIONAL NUMBERS in math.

They are still numbers, my friend. Just because they don't fit the typical mold, doesn't make them less of a number.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

It is a digit in our base 10 system. Each of the digits in said system is a number. Therefore 0 is a number. And for all you people who are saying it is neither positive or negative there is actually -0 meaning that 0 is positive. Tada!

 

[Zacharine]

0 is a number because it was used that way thousands of years, and no one wants to change it.

Rather no. Just to point this out, mathematics is a fully artificial system. We can declare what axioms apply and do not apply, based on the situation. We can ignore whatever rules we wish, if we so declare, but that means we cannot use rules that require those that we decided to ignore.

For example, Euclidean and Non-Euclidean geometry.

Or ten-dimensional vector calculus. No-one cares if ten dimensions actually exist or not. We still can and do calculate such things.

A number need not denote anything in relation to reality, in order to still be a number. Just like an equation need not correspond to anything in reality to still be an equation. Because we created the realm of mathematics. We decided the rules. We apply and ignore those rules as situations require.

Zero is a number of absence, and vital to any kind of arithmetics. Sure, one can construct mathematical systems without it, but those are surprisingly basic and of little real-world utility in comparison to systems with a zero.

 

[jultub]

I'm standing still right now, my motion relative to my surroundings is 0.

 

[Ryujisama]

SNIP*
More lies from the wolf.
I told you to stop taking one thing and calling it another. I am not a commie, communism is the belief that all deserts and people need to follow a strict pattern to be acceptable. This is your belief, not mine. Liberals like you say pie is not good with ice cream, when you say that you are taking away my freedom of belief in typical liberal fashion. Maybe not everyone likes ice cream on pie, I respect that, but I believe we need more than ice cream. For that matter, i believe we need more than desert. I believe we need freedom, something you liberals know nothing about. I believe we need a choice in our desert, and pie is the only desert that allows this freedom. There is no such thing as a meat cake or a sugar free cake, these are facts. Your just making things up to brainwash people and I find it revolting.

When Hitler first wanted to seize control, his first act was endorsing cake. It was perfect in his sick mind, everyone eating cake so people unable to tolerate the high level of sugar would be forced to die. The problem was too many rebels disliked this idea so they ate pie, and the nazis tried to put a stop to this. They started with the pie eaters, then the conservative Christians, by the end nobody was left to stop them except the Americans.

I just read a history book, and I'll be honest, it scared the living shit out of me. Please read one, it has so much information and now I see it happening all over again. If we don't do something to stop these cake pushing fascists, nobody will be left to stop them this time.

Hah the only wolf here is you, here to pray on our righteous flock. You deny your commie origin espousing freedom while condemning all deserts not pie. You call me a liberal then you say I do not want freedom? Choose little commie if freedom is not what I want how can I be liberal? If I consider ice cream to improve cake how can I deny choice in our sweet after-meal? And most importantly how DARE you deny the existence of cake variety?! No we'll not fall for you devil's tongue today you monster you. You will not claim pie to be the domain of freedom so long as cake and its delicious allies stand together. Cookie is with us, donut is with us, ice cream is with us, candy is with us! We stand an alliance of freedom against that most heinous of tyrants!

You fool so deep into your pie propaganda that you cannot see the facts so easily visible to anyone. Hitler devoured only pie, every second of every day, it is this of course that led to his great evil. He was but a man how could he withstand the corrupting influence of the dark pastry.

And in the last move left you claim that your history book delivered you this truth? This pie endorsed madness, I can't help but wonder at how deep this has gotten. Fascism you claim... I know fascism my friend and it is a 3 letter word for EVIL.

It should be recognized that no form of desert is absolutely perfect. Some are better and sometimes it can be difficult to tell which is best, often times the most fervent believers are not evil or tyrannical but simply misled. What's most important is we all eat bacon.

Bacon is a glorious treat I'll accept, and far be it from one so humble as me to claim cake is perfect, but to acknowledge pie as an equal?! Such an affront to our delicious honor cannot be sustained with no good faith to rely on.

HOW DARE YOU!
HOW DARE YOU SIR, NO sir is what you call a respectable human being. HOW DARE YOU CAKE EATER!
How dare you deny what happened during the holocaust? HOW DARE YOU!
What's next, your going to tell me cake was persecuted and pie was his favorite pastry? LIES!
I can't even....DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY!
Up in the attics, where christian conservatives hid from the nazis (only until they grow in numbers for them to overthrow the nazis, after all they wouldn't just hide all the time like SOME PEOPLE MIGHT) they lived on pie. Without pie, they would have abandoned their beliefs and let the cake induced diabetes kill them off as Hitler intended BUT THEY HELD STRONG. The pie kept them strong. They knew they needed to keep living, so that they may continue to taste the glorious freedom of pie.
Is there such a thing as "American as apple cake" NO! BECAUSE YOU LIBERALS DON'T ALLOW APPLES IN YOUR PRECIOUS NAZI CAKE!
HOW DARE YOU!

what are your stances on fruitcake?

FRUITCAKE! ARE YOU KIDDIN- HOW CAN YOU EVEN BRING THAT UP.

Fruit cake is an abomination. It makes both fruit and cake taste worse than ever. Fruit is from god, this can be proven, and cake is an affront to god. The cake corrupts the fruit. This is science people.

Fruit cake is a liberal conspiracy meant to slowly make cake synonymous with Christmas, thank god they failed.

But it's ok I guess.

While I must admit that these arguments have amused me so, I must interject a little tidbit that I have deemed most interesting.

Once upon a time, before the invention of cellular phones, before the invention of automobiles, before the invention of books, a confectionery concoction was created for the masses. Its origin can be traced far back to the most ancient of times of the desert land of the Pharaohs known as Egypt. It is here a pastry among pastries was crafted. However, this pastry had other motives than just containing those which may deliver unto the masses that which is sweet.

Within it's crusty confines it housed the very flesh of other living creatures.

Skin.

Muscle.

Marrow.

Yes... it is during these times when God's domain was challenged by man, that the world was brought to realize the existence of something sinister, something deceptive. The world was to become subject to the creation of the "meat pie".

.... That is all I have to say...

 

[kouriichi]

0 is a number because it was used that way thousands of years, and no one wants to change it.

Rather no. Just to point this out, mathematics is a fully artificial system. We can declare what axioms apply and do not apply, based on the situation. We can ignore whatever rules we wish, if we so declare, but that means we cannot use rules that require those that we decided to ignore.

For example, Euclidean and Non-Euclidean geometry.

Or ten-dimensional vector calculus. No-one cares if ten dimensions actually exist or not. We still can and do calculate such things.

A number need not denote anything in relation to reality, in order to still be a number. Just like an equation need not correspond to anything in reality to still be an equation. Because we created the realm of mathematics. We decided the rules. We apply and ignore those rules as situations require.

Zero is a number of absence, and vital to any kind of arithmetics. Sure, one can construct mathematical systems without it, but those are surprisingly basic and of little real-world utility in comparison to systems with a zero.

So what your saying is im basically right with the idea 0 is useless as a number, and we could do without?
That its only really a number when it has to exist when its used to forward someone agenda?

 

[KarumaK]

SNIP*
More lies from the wolf.
I told you to stop taking one thing and calling it another. I am not a commie, communism is the belief that all deserts and people need to follow a strict pattern to be acceptable. This is your belief, not mine. Liberals like you say pie is not good with ice cream, when you say that you are taking away my freedom of belief in typical liberal fashion. Maybe not everyone likes ice cream on pie, I respect that, but I believe we need more than ice cream. For that matter, i believe we need more than desert. I believe we need freedom, something you liberals know nothing about. I believe we need a choice in our desert, and pie is the only desert that allows this freedom. There is no such thing as a meat cake or a sugar free cake, these are facts. Your just making things up to brainwash people and I find it revolting.

When Hitler first wanted to seize control, his first act was endorsing cake. It was perfect in his sick mind, everyone eating cake so people unable to tolerate the high level of sugar would be forced to die. The problem was too many rebels disliked this idea so they ate pie, and the nazis tried to put a stop to this. They started with the pie eaters, then the conservative Christians, by the end nobody was left to stop them except the Americans.

I just read a history book, and I'll be honest, it scared the living shit out of me. Please read one, it has so much information and now I see it happening all over again. If we don't do something to stop these cake pushing fascists, nobody will be left to stop them this time.

Hah the only wolf here is you, here to pray on our righteous flock. You deny your commie origin espousing freedom while condemning all deserts not pie. You call me a liberal then you say I do not want freedom? Choose little commie if freedom is not what I want how can I be liberal? If I consider ice cream to improve cake how can I deny choice in our sweet after-meal? And most importantly how DARE you deny the existence of cake variety?! No we'll not fall for you devil's tongue today you monster you. You will not claim pie to be the domain of freedom so long as cake and its delicious allies stand together. Cookie is with us, donut is with us, ice cream is with us, candy is with us! We stand an alliance of freedom against that most heinous of tyrants!

You fool so deep into your pie propaganda that you cannot see the facts so easily visible to anyone. Hitler devoured only pie, every second of every day, it is this of course that led to his great evil. He was but a man how could he withstand the corrupting influence of the dark pastry.

And in the last move left you claim that your history book delivered you this truth? This pie endorsed madness, I can't help but wonder at how deep this has gotten. Fascism you claim... I know fascism my friend and it is a 3 letter word for EVIL.

It should be recognized that no form of desert is absolutely perfect. Some are better and sometimes it can be difficult to tell which is best, often times the most fervent believers are not evil or tyrannical but simply misled. What's most important is we all eat bacon.

Bacon is a glorious treat I'll accept, and far be it from one so humble as me to claim cake is perfect, but to acknowledge pie as an equal?! Such an affront to our delicious honor cannot be sustained with no good faith to rely on.

HOW DARE YOU!
HOW DARE YOU SIR, NO sir is what you call a respectable human being. HOW DARE YOU CAKE EATER!
How dare you deny what happened during the holocaust? HOW DARE YOU!
What's next, your going to tell me cake was persecuted and pie was his favorite pastry? LIES!
I can't even....DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY!
Up in the attics, where christian conservatives hid from the nazis (only until they grow in numbers for them to overthrow the nazis, after all they wouldn't just hide all the time like SOME PEOPLE MIGHT) they lived on pie. Without pie, they would have abandoned their beliefs and let the cake induced diabetes kill them off as Hitler intended BUT THEY HELD STRONG. The pie kept them strong. They knew they needed to keep living, so that they may continue to taste the glorious freedom of pie.
Is there such a thing as "American as apple cake" NO! BECAUSE YOU LIBERALS DON'T ALLOW APPLES IN YOUR PRECIOUS NAZI CAKE!
HOW DARE YOU!

And there it is, vindication. Notice how even the false logic the pie shover had before disintegrates entirely in the face of truth. The raving of a brainwashed zealot sounds throughout brought short by the unbreakable wall of truth. You corrupt the truth of such a dark event with wild lies about Christians and Nazis. Pie is the source of the evil that was Nazi Germany it is the very teat, from which madman are nurtured.

And were it not for pie the Nazi party would never have risen to power, free pie for all at the meetings and the corruption spreads. With the spread of pie came the spread of hate, the spread of fear, the spread of TRUE EVIL. There is no such thing as "American as apple cake" because it is not a national truth but a GLOBAL truth.

Cake is for everyone, like freedom.

 

[Atheist.]

I'm standing still right now, my motion relative to my surroundings is 0.

I was going to use a physics explanation similar to this, but I've come to the conclusion that nothing will make the OP change his mind on this subject, so I'm just going to let him/her continue to believe so for as long as he/she chooses to do so.