Poll: Israel: Is it's existence justified?
- Thread starter The Infamous Scamola
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I disagree with you when you say, "The Holocaust proved that Europe and the US did not have the Jews' backs." There really wasn't anything the war-time governments could have done. They could have accepted more refugees before the war, but then they didn't know that the Holocaust was going to happen. And the massive amounts of refugees after the war made taking them all in a difficult task. And bombing concentration camps would have been a stupid idea. It would have wasted war resources (planes and bombs) as well as the lives of pilots, on an extremely dangerous mission when they should have been bombing Axis military targets. And even if they did hit the camps, it would only have made things worse. The Germans didn't need the camp structures to kill Jews. All they would have done would be to make the prisoners rebuild bomb-damaged structures, leading to even more people worked to death. Along with the prisoners killed in the bombings. Even if the camps were destroyed (which would have killed most of the prisoners in the process) there was nothing stopping the Germans from just shooting them all, which would have been much more likely if they lacked facilities to feed and house them all.Jerious1154 said:
The only thing the Allies could have done was to end the war as quickly as possible. Which they did, by focusing resources on defeating the German war machine. The Allies did everything they could have in support of the Jews by ending the war and supporting the creation of Israel, and I don't expect them to have done any more.
But yes, the aftermath of the Holocaust was a major part of the necessity of a Jewish state. The Holocaust left millions of Jews unable to go back to their countries of origin, nowhere to go. They had no homes, no possessions, often no families, and broken lives. Those huge masses of people needed somewhere to go to pick up their lives and start over, and Israel was that place. I hate to imagine what the Jewish people would have been forced to go through had Israel not existed. The Holocaust would have had much worse and far-reaching effects, I'll tell you that much.
I think the whole "there was no country beforehand", followed by "there was no intentional kicking out of Arabs", ending with the British solved it fair and square. Then ending with telling me that I should stay on topic.ElephantGuts said:
Concluding that I should send you some kind of link that will disprove everything and change your mind is equally delusional. I said they waged war with their neighbors (Egypt) and took over the country that they wanted. I'm glad you're using the British and UN giving them permission because Hey, they really had some kind of right to be there too.
And just for giggles, here's a great documentary you should watch sometime:
http://www.occupation101.com/about.html
Let's see, where to start, where to start. First of all, I never said that the British solved anything "fair and square." The opposite in fact, their failure to stick to a plan made the whole situation a lot worse. I never said the the British or UN gave them permission to do anything. All I said was that Britain controlled Palestine, and if they wanted to give the Jews land there then that was their decision to make, and the Jews didn't take it. I don't think I mentioned the UN, but after I type this I'll go back and check.L.B. Jeffries said:
The rest of what you say seems to stem from simple uneducation on the topic. If you read about early plans for the creation of Israel such as the White Paper or the UN Partition Plan, they called for a peaceful establishment of divided states where Jews and Arabs lived side by side; no one got kicked out. The Jews accepted this plan; the Arabs did not.
I must say I'm fairly confused about you stating that Israel "waged war with their neighbors (Egypt) and took over the country." Who took over what country? Israel took over Egypt? That certainly never happened. Might I also direct you to this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
If you don't trust Wikipedia, there are plenty of other articles available on this war. A quick summary: Directly after Israel declared its independence, several Arab countries declared war on and invaded Israel, including Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and various Palestinian forces and other Arab armies. I don't know how you could consider this Israel waging war on its neighbors, but it doesn't sound like that to me. Go ahead and look up the other Arab-Israeli wars, find out how many times Arab armies attacked and attempted to wipe out Israel.
I don't really want to argue with you since you're apparently quite uneducated regarding the Arab-Israeli conflicts; either that or you're crazy. But if you're getting these ideas of yours from that documentary, maybe I will watch it sometime. I'm sure it will be worth it.
Yes, it was all the Arabs fault, their evil let's just kill all those bearded turban-wearing suicide bombing Arabs!ravensheart18 said:
The Arabs certainly aren't innocent, but they were there at the time, you can't condemn a society for being angry at having their land taken away. Also the Arabs weren't "unwilling to coexist" most of them went along fine with it all, it was mostly extremists who attacked Israel and Israel had no problem with attacking back, not against the extremist, but instead against Palestine. The problem isn't that Israel exists, it's way too late too change that, the problem is the way they treat the Palestinians. Since Israel was first created, they have marginalised the Muslims within their own country and steadily taking over Palestinian land, yes the Palestinians did fight back, but they are certainly no more to blame than Israel.
The most important thing in my opinion is that the rest of the world puts some pressure on Israel and Palestine, the borders should be redrawn to better accommodate both populations and there needs to be strong pressure on both countries to prevent excessive violence, it's impossible to stop ALL violence, but we can stop the firing of rockets and the nation's army from attacking.
ravensheart18 said:
It was wrong for the US to even come into existence, but the problem in it's essence has been "solved" in the sense that there aren't wars ensuing between Native American and colonialist forces, partly because over the past couple hundred years, both these forces essentially dissolved themselves.
The problem with Israel isn't that the land wasn't originally Israel, but that there is conflict, if there were no conflict in Israel, then the matter wouldn't be as controversial, people would still argue ownership, but there wouldn't be as many violent disputes. Israel shouldn't be handed over to Palestine, but they do need to allow Palestinians room to live, currently the Arab population has not even a tenth of the Israel-Palestine area to populate. If the violence were to stop tomorrow and the Arabs and the Jews in the area could co-exist, most people would let the problem go.
Don't try to make similarities between countries that don't apply.
@ravensheart: I presume that you are Jewish or Israeli (though I may be wrong), if so then I think you should either refrain from posting, because, unless you have properly researched the Palestinian issue and understand their plight too, you're posts will be very biased to Israelis, it's good to show both sides of the issue, but so far all your posts haven't been very constructive, in fact some off them have even gone against the point of the forum. (I don't want to sound unfair, all I'm trying to say is to refrain from one-sided posts, I don't want to limit your free speech)
Bring it on. I've got 5 good friends in the army and one of them is training for SpecOps. We'll give you and your buddies a good curb-stomping and then take all the stuff from your houses. To the victors go the spoils.Arbre said:
Can you guys make a youtube video out of it, because I really doubt I will be able to travel across the border to watch manly men fight against manly men, in a manly men wannabe contest.Undead Dragon King said:
I got 10 good friends getting ready to join the pokemon elite trainer league by the way, that's TEN powerful people right there.
No israel shouldn't have been created, but that doesn't allow persecution now that it is years later. It's been done, live with it.
Unfortunately israel isn't just sitting still, but is bulldozing homes and sending expansion colonies to expand their borders.
Palistine isn't sitting still either, but at least it isn't their government doing the nasty shit.
As with all these conflicts, it's the civilians from both countries that get screwed over, because of power hungry morons in government, or crazy radicals.
Unfortunately israel isn't just sitting still, but is bulldozing homes and sending expansion colonies to expand their borders.
Palistine isn't sitting still either, but at least it isn't their government doing the nasty shit.
As with all these conflicts, it's the civilians from both countries that get screwed over, because of power hungry morons in government, or crazy radicals.
Can we all agree that we should all belong in one gigantic country? That way, there's no such thing as discrimina-
What's that Jones? What do you mean we can't please everyone?!
It is with regret, that I have to say that we cannot change what was done, and if we were to break up Israel, there could be nothing but bad stuff happening. Therefore, lets keep them alive, and go to the pub.
What's that Jones? What do you mean we can't please everyone?!
It is with regret, that I have to say that we cannot change what was done, and if we were to break up Israel, there could be nothing but bad stuff happening. Therefore, lets keep them alive, and go to the pub.
Yes, but only in the sense of it being a Jewish homeland. Some of their actions- namely the bombing the hell out of Gaza and killing like 5 civilians for every combatant- make their existence seem unjust, but the idea of a Jewish homeland is one I can support in theory. But then I honestly have to ask if a single-nationality (or almost so) state is ever a good idea.
I tried for an over-the-top response to show just how this line of thinking-"might makes right" only applies to nation-on-nation conflict. Personal disputes just don't follow this rule.kat-24 said:
Israel has a right to exist because it does exist.
If Israel doesn't have the right to exist, we might as well start examining which nations do and do not, then establish standards. Who is qualified to do this? Which nations existing today did not come into existence without in at least some way trampling over other previously existing nations?
At what point do we hunt down descendents of the Visigoths and charge them for the sacking of Rome?
Israel exists. Get over it, and be glad they are willing to talk about a two-state solution.
If Israel doesn't have the right to exist, we might as well start examining which nations do and do not, then establish standards. Who is qualified to do this? Which nations existing today did not come into existence without in at least some way trampling over other previously existing nations?
At what point do we hunt down descendents of the Visigoths and charge them for the sacking of Rome?
Israel exists. Get over it, and be glad they are willing to talk about a two-state solution.