Poll: Jedi vs anyone else?

[clockpenalty]

In theory they can force block anything, even energy blasts. (yoda-'size matters not'. Darth vader- barehanded laser beam block/defend in ROTJ, yoda barehanded force lightning block in AOTC, ROTS)

In practice, most jedi have serious problems blocking anything that is moving faster than they can wave their hands, show physical exetrion blocking large objects, and can only defend against energy with the aid of a lightsaber.

I guess it depends on the level of the Jedi in question.

 

[entropy3ko]

i could kill a jedi. they cant kill people or they become sith

they still can cut your arms or legs for self-defence, like Obi-Wan in 'A new Hope'

 

[TheHound]

Not wanting to be too topical here but suicide bomber? He'd never see it comming. Hed be all like "i can block anything you fire at m- BOOM!"

 

[entropy3ko]

Jedi and Jedi master were sure powerful, but certainly not invincible.

General Grivous himself had killed a lot of Jedi (although in the movie he was shown as a pussy)

Battle Meditation, as was mentioned above, was a Force skill that only a FEW Jedi had. in KOTOR for example, no Jedi Master had such skill, except for Bastila Shan.

Jedi Masters did not necessarily know all 'tricks of the trade'. It also depended much on their natural midiclorian count and aptitude.

The Yuzan-Vong could easily kill a Jedi Master, their armor was almost completely resistant against the power of the lightsaber

 

[clockpenalty]

@the hound

If the guy writing the story so wills it, the Force will tell the Jedi beforehand about the suicide bomber's intent.

@entropy3ko

Grievous killed lots of Jedi because he was purpose-built by a master jedi duelist specifically to exploit the weaknesses in the modern Jedi's use of the force. They were mainly half-assed quasi-jedi who were overdependent on the lightsaber and incidental use of the force through training with little practical experience. It's like Bruce lee purposefully looking for holes in age-old martial arts and coming up with a ridiculouysly simple scheme to defeat high level practicioners of major martial arts.

mace made nonsense of all Grievous' supposed power by simply force-crushing his chest, something most saber-minded Jedi wouldnt have considered doing before leaping in, saber flashing. Obiwan had an even more ridiculous solution....he just picked up a blaster and shot the fool, but not after proving that the ole saber-spin wouldn't work on HIM!


In summary: as I said earlier it depends on the level of the Jedi. The OP just said 'Jedi vs anyone else' so he isnt talking about any particular Jedi in question. There's a huge gap between some pussy like Daakman barrek and a Dark Lord of the Sith like Exar Kun.

Bastila isnt the only Jedi to use BM. Jorus c'baoth used it, during the clone wars no less.

Haven't read any of the EU yuzan-vong stuff.... specifically because it seemed like me to be a cheap way of Lucasarts inventing a race of jedi-killers to make the story less one-sided, and to add some variety from the usual dark force users. I'll be glad to read up on them and find out exactly why they were so deadly to the Jedi


EDIT:

Yuzahn vong were seperated from the force by some spiritual reason, and so, magically, are not affected by the force!We can see the deus-ex-machina aspects of the force as a story device in action here, can't we! lol. So.... Jedi vs Yuzahn vong = Jedi loses! lol.

 

[yourverysilly]

Batman. I can very rarely think of a situation in which you can beat batman. deffinatley batgirl (cassandra cain) sinc she can read your every move.

 

[Agorm]

Adria or a Prior of the Ori could easily defeat any Jedi
(Stargate SG1 reference)

 

[LordOmnit]

So there's no exact science behind how much beating a Force block can take? Is there some rough idea on it's limits, or is one to assume the shields can block *anything*? If the latter then I'll concede that the Jedi may very well be indestructible.

Technically not.
As said before, it really only matters with how much the Jedi was in tuned to the force (or their mitochondria count; yes, I said mitochondria on purpose because I felt like it). Most of the Jedi around during the Clone Wars time could use a light saber and not hit themselves with it. Maybe they could push something around and run fast or some such nonsense, but really they weren't much after that. I mean, how many Jedi did anything in the Clone Wars besides die? I think you can count them on a lot fewer than all your fingers and toes.
The ones that did are the real masters (no matter how much of a whining kitten Ani was) that would be the really tough opponents.

 

[DkSeraph]

With the possible exception of Yoda, Darth Sidious and even elder Obi-Wan (all who showed a marked degree of omnipresence), I would say all other jedi, even the esteemed Skywalkers and Solos would fall before the terrible wrath of...

Doctor Who

Yes, that's right. The affable, quirky time traveller. The affable, quirky Time Traveller who was the cause of 2 species' genocides and who currently is empowered with the very fabric of space-time.

To explain (for all you non-Brits or avid Yanks or people who slept through the past 30 years or are too young to know good sci-fi), the good Doctor is what is called a Time Lord, is as old or older than Yoda, and has his own time machine, the T.A.R.D.I.S. And the T.A.R.D.I.S is 'powered' by an engine known as The Eye of Harmony. The EoH is actually the harnessed core of a black hole. And this core allows the TARDIS to manifest itself across all time and all space (and until very recently, all dimensions). Oh, and its a living entity. And what do we call a living entity that transcends time, space and dimenionality? Yes, we call that a god.

So, the TARDIS is the penultimate Time Machine.

Now, Time Lords are attuned to their TARDIS (or TARDISi, anyone?), so essentially, they are linked. Well, quite recently, the Doctor was called upon to absorb the EoH to save his companion, Rose ("Parting of the Ways"). In doing so, he became the second (or third) Time Lord (in the history of *all* time) to actually merge with this living, omnipotent entity. And further exposition in the mythos has bestowed Doctor Who with the virtual powers of a god ("Last of the Time Lords").

He's just too polite a chap to abuse that power.

All of this is academic, since anyone who knows the Doctor would surmise he'd be more acutely interested in Jedi than antagonistic, but should the Jedi Anger him?

The 10th regeneration of the Doctor is a dark, lonely being. It's not inconcievable (and has been demonstrated) that challenging his power or threatening his wards (which included the human race, in toto perpetuity) resulted in very bad, very very unpleasant things happening to you: being frozen in time, tossed into the event horizon of a black hole, trapped within a continuum of mirrors, having your entire freaking race purged from history... you name it.

Ooops, looks like Anakin actually slid face-first into the lava. Luke? Well, err... his Land Speeder flipped on him inexplicably, leaving him paralyzed. Jedi? Who're they? They must he died off long ago, lost... to time.

It's hard to fight someone who could make sure that not only *you* were never born, but your entire race. And before anyone argues about 'paradox' and 'predestination errors', know that the Time Lords were empowered to enforce those Laws of Reality. So, they could also chose *not* to enforce them. When across all dimensions, all of time and all of space are your playthings, what care have you of petty mortals who can lift rocks, toss lightning and are good with energy blades?

Jelly Baby, anyone?

 

[DuoM]

@DkSeraph

Okay that post sold me on buying the first season of Doctor Who. As for the time and jedi business, you're on the button of there being one person aside from Chuck Norris and Doctor Doom that could defeat a jedi.

---

I'd argue that the Kool-Aid dude could seriously give a regular jedi a problem. I don't know about you guys but he's exhibited some form of invincibility and super strength. Those bricks didn't fall down by themselves.

 

[Sinharvest]

okay now i want to see the battle between dr.who and the warp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaterium_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29

 

[DkSeraph]

okay now i want to see the battle between dr.who and the warp http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaterium_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29

Easy.

Technically, the Immaterium is the raw stuff of chaos. Time+Space is the raw stuff of creation. Since chaos can only manifest within the restriction of creation.. and we know that Doctor Who can ultimately (re)define the course of specific instances of creation... then Nurgle manifests as.. a gerbil and Khorne.. as .. well.. a tasty buttered cob... Theoretically he could travel back and stop the Eldar from falling and creating Slaaneesh. Or, more importantly, he could cause Horus to think twice about betraying his friend and therefore the Golden Age of Mankind would have never ended and the Chaos Lords would never have had the mortal focus to manifest in the Materium to the extent they have in WH40K. if you want to REALLY go back.. just have the Necrons get sucked into the EoH en masse. That leaves the Slaan to bandy about as they wish. Oh, and those pesky Y'mgarl Genestealers? An explosion of rabid squigs wiped them out.

Personally, I think Doctor Who would prefer just chilling with the Squats.

 

[LordOmnit]

Just going based on your description of said time lord, it is possible for him to be ousted or some other term for gotten rid of because it is explicitly stated by you that he isn't the first, and therefore able to be un-done. Not saying a Jedi could do it, but it could be done.

 

[Sinharvest]

Just remember in the warhammer 40k universe humans, orks, and elves were created by the ancients. The emotions of these races created the warp. If he went back in time and stopped the creation of these races for some reason he would be undoing himself. So for him to exist chaos has to exist. Also in the warp time doesnt really exist its timeless.

On the otherhand you have really good answers and i love these discussions.

Anything to do with time travel is really cool. I <3 chrono trigger.

 

[DkSeraph]

Just going based on your description of said time lord, it is possible for him to be ousted or some other term for gotten rid of because it is explicitly stated by you that he isn't the first, and therefore able to be un-done. Not saying a Jedi could do it, but it could be done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_harmony

Well, that depends. The Times Lords were given their power (to control Time and Space) and mandate to manage said time & space via the creation of The Eye of Harmony, which was henceforth replicated into their various Time Machines. Technically, Time Lords are simply evolved humans. Doctor Who can 'die' via normal means, just like any human. But he also can regenerate (a theorized 13 times). So, he can be killed and has been killed, but has always been reborn.

!!!SPOILER ALERT DuoM!!!!

Doctor Who however, absorbed the power and omnipotence of the Eye of Harmony, which turned his companion into Bad Wolf, a vengeful demigod which essentially said (to the Daleks) "I have seen your evil.. and Ï erase you from existence"

That was a normal, 20-something human. Imagine that power in the hands of a virtual immortal with a great deal more saavy with the who "wibbly-wobbly, timesey-wimesy" stuff. Fearful indeed.

Anyways, back to your question. Three proto-Time Lords created the Eye of Harmony: Rassilon, the first President (or Emperor at the time, who would eventually become a despot) of the Time Lords, the solar engineer Omega (who actually created it) and "the Other".

The answer to your question lies in the Other. In certain canon, he is perported to be the most powerful Time Lord of all time. He is said to have not been born on Gallifrey (the TL homeworld) but "at some other time and some other place".

When the Other perceived Rassilon was moving towards despotism, he sacrificed himself into the Looms, a sort of genetic distillery that guaranteed the wisdom and evolution of the Time Lords were persist even after their death (this was before the manipulation of the genome and the symbiosis with their TARDIS that allowed for their regenerations) since they had bene cursed to sterility by the first rulers of Gallifrey.

The curious thing is that before the despotism of Rassilon, the Other had a child, Susan. Before he sacrificed himself to the Looms, he ensured that she made it to safety. Fast forward several eons, the second Doctor (his second regeneration) is forced back into the Old Times (the time surrounding the creation of the EoH and the ascendancy of the Time Lords). While there, he runs across Susan, who recognizes him as "Grandfather" instinctually.

What this implies is not only that The Other was potentially reborn as the Doctor, but that the Doctor himself somehow sired one of the parents of the Other, meaning he retro-actively predates Rassilon, Omega, and The Other. He also predates the creation of time-travel (the TLords were the first) which *should* be a temporal impossibility. Some say The Doctor was The Other. Regardless of the interpretation, The Doctor is essentially the Beginning and the End. He is the Last of the Time Lords and potentially.. the first of them as well.

So, to answer your question: possibly, but the Doctor sort of steps outside conventional wisdom on this issue.

 

[LordOmnit]

So he's a causality loop in, of, by, and creating himself essentially?
Most facinating.

 

[ComradeJim270]

@clockpenalty
One hunting rifle, 700 yards. Jedi dead on the floor before you even hear the shot.

Wrong. Even movie jedi would sense the Rifleman's evil intent, even if he were across the galaxy. Anime Jedi would force crush him from that distance, too.

Sure worked nicely for them in Episode III, huh? I'm detecting sarcasm here, yes? Even if that were the case, a droid could do it instead, because there would be no intent to sense, just cold steel, so to speak.

I also humbly submit the nuclear-armed Mobile Infantry of the novel (not the movie, which is parody and is about as true to the book as Spaceballs is to Star Wars) Starship Troopers. Escape the explosion somehow? That's ok, you're already dead from the radiation, it will just take about a week.

In Episode III the Jedi were suffering a blanket blockout of the senses due to Sidious' galaxy-eating power. Nonetheless, remember obi and Ani detecting the mechanical danger to Padme in AOTC? They WILL detect it, even if it is a droid. Its like spiderman's spidey sense- magic power lacking any real biological explanation.

It is canon that you can't just pull a gun on a jedi and kill him. If his reflexes are dull or he doesnt eact in time,you could get him, but ideally the force would prevent such a situation from arising in the first place.

The truth is, the way the force is explained in the movies and novels, it is a plot device that can be used to explain any deus-ex-machina solution a writer can dream of to a Jedi's problems. I suspect the whole idea of Jedi's senses being dulled in the prequels was GL's way of escaping the plot holes that would surface in any story that involved Jedi getting fooled en-masse, aand/or killed by mere stormtroopers.

Minus the overreaching influence of the dark side, the Jedi would be near invincible due to perfect knowledge. Its like playing an FPS aganst a guy using a wallhack and an aimbot- an invisible force that lets him cheat his way to victory. The Jedi were easily fooled by sidious simply because they were overdependent on their senses, so once taken away from them, they stumbled around like a person recently blinded.

Its also worth mentioning that most of the incompetent Jedi were just that- incompetent. Even in the anime, there are many jedi that just get clobbered to death like idiots. The Jedi order *had* grown fat, lazy and weak due to years of prosperity and overconfidence.


Jedi vs mobile infantry? Since we are in novel-land here, I'll have you know that via battle meditation, a Jedi can control an army of millions, spanning an entire planet. This was possible even during the clone wars with underpowered Jedi.

If you want to face movie Jedi, you have to use mobile infantry from the starship troopers movie, and the outcome of that is pretty much cut-and-dry.


EDIT: death from radiation poisoning? Novel Jedi are pretty powerful with the good ol' force heal

I don't think force heal is going to fix lethal radiation poisoning. It interferes with cell division, so assuming force heal works by regenerating damaged tissue, it's quite possible they wouldn't even be able to attempt it. Also, the proposed battle is one on one, so Battle Meditation is irrelevant.

The only way to survive a nuclear attack is not to be there. Even if they have a form of precognition (which I don't think they do, at least not one that lets them know when something is attempting to kill them), I really doubt they can run fast enough to get away from that, Force or no Force.

Another thing to keep in mind is that in Episode III, even after they were aware of what was going on, clone troopers were still shown slaughtering Jedi, they just needed to try a little harder. Lightsaber blades are a straight line, so if shots are fired more or less simultaneously at three different areas on the Jedi's body... let's say... head, chest, and stomach... only two of those shots can be deflected... even if they know it's coming.

With movie vs. movie, though, I agree, movie MI wouldn't stand a chance!

 

[McMo0^]

lets keep in mind he's saying 1 on 1, is a jedi master able to be defeated. So lets take it that the jedi is very much aware of whats goin on. The trouble with Jedi is where do you draw the line at what they can do. In ep 1 we saw qui and obi 1 flee from destroyer droids faster than the speed of light, so would that mean that the jedi can move and think at a greatly increased speed? if so then the reason the jedi got swatted in order 66 was purely to keep it interesting. A jedi moving at that speed would take out any clone battalion around them in a couple of seconds. Also forgetting that with a jedi's telekenesis, they could pin you in the air, incapable of movement and then batter the shit out of you. If you can't be hurt by electrical damage (though bear in mind the amount of heat coming off a lightsaber would mean you'd have to be immune to that as well) they could toss you around while fillin in a crossword.

The big problem with the jedi is that they were only ever as powerful as a story intended. When you look at games that have been based on the jedi, they've always been stupendously powerfully juggernauts, because you can't give them abilities and then take them away from a player, that would just be plain rude.

If the Jedi were given the freedom of a decent playwright, only Stupidly powerful telekens and the litterally unkillable would be able to defeat them because of the range of abilities that should always be at a jedi's command.

 

[ehal256]

According to Pharsyde's neutral jedi, very very few could take him out.

A couple examples people have said.

1) Aliens (from the Alien series, obviously): 1 on 1 no, powerful jedi masters (Kyle Katarn for example) can use an ability called Force Protection,its pretty much a shield of force energy, to block particles (such as bullets, and blaster bolts), while in combat, so alien acid blood would not kill the jedi. Lightsabers also instantly cauterize wounds that they cause, so no acid spray would be likely to occur.

2)A shotgun: as I explained earlier, force protection would block all incoming particles, if some got through somehow, the jedi could push them back with the force, and block the rest with his/her lightsaber(s).

3)Hunting Rifle: Precognition enough to dodge sniper rifle has been shown in games such as Jedi Knight 2, so no.

4)Anything immune to electricity: a lightsaber is not a jedi master's only weapon, here's a rudimentary list of possible force attacks a master could use, telekinesis based attacks, electric based attacks, pure matter destruction based attacks (Force Destruction, if anyone was wondering), and if powerful enough, direct control of molecules themselves (no jedi has become powerful enough to do any more than create a tiny bit of light afaik).

5)Lethal Radiation Poisoning: I'm not sure about this one, Force Protection could possibly stop it, if not Force Heal could probably repair any damage done, it works at the molecular level with midichlorians, it artificially stimulates cell division wth the energy of the force... if not we have a winner but this was about a 1v1

very few characters could take on a jedi 1v1.
Pharsyde's suggestions are all possible though, and Dr. Who (I guess, but it is kinda lame)

 

[ComradeJim270]

According to Pharsyde's neutral jedi, very very few could take him out.

A couple examples people have said.

1) Aliens (from the Alien series, obviously): 1 on 1 no, powerful jedi masters (Kyle Katarn for example) can use an ability called Force Protection,its pretty much a shield of force energy, to block particles (such as bullets, and blaster bolts), while in combat, so alien acid blood would not kill the jedi. Lightsabers also instantly cauterize wounds that they cause, so no acid spray would be likely to occur.

2)A shotgun: as I explained earlier, force protection would block all incoming particles, if some got through somehow, the jedi could push them back with the force, and block the rest with his/her lightsaber(s).

3)Hunting Rifle: Precognition enough to dodge sniper rifle has been shown in games such as Jedi Knight 2, so no.

4)Anything immune to electricity: a lightsaber is not a jedi master's only weapon, here's a rudimentary list of possible force attacks a master could use, telekinesis based attacks, electric based attacks, pure matter destruction based attacks (Force Destruction, if anyone was wondering), and if powerful enough, direct control of molecules themselves (no jedi has become powerful enough to do any more than create a tiny bit of light afaik).

5)Lethal Radiation Poisoning: I'm not sure about this one, Force Protection could possibly stop it, if not Force Heal could probably repair any damage done, it works at the molecular level with midichlorians, it artificially stimulates cell division wth the energy of the force... if not we have a winner but this was about a 1v1

very few characters could take on a jedi 1v1.
Pharsyde's suggestions are all possible though, and Dr. Who (I guess, but it is kinda lame)

Midiwhatzamahuh? Most people who have even a passing interest in Star Wars like to ignore that crap. Also, Han shot first, and last. But the cell division thing is the reason Force Heal would not be likely to work. Stimulating cell division would fail, because the cells would not be able to divide properly. Of course, this would be a non-issue if they don't survive the THERMAL radiation... then they're just ash.

I just think the MI are fun to bring up in threads like this. My brother once came across a Samus vs. Master Chief thread, then turned to me and asked about Starship Troopers. I told him they have jump jets, about 2000 lbs. of armor, and nukes, he posted that, and everyone in the thread responded, more or less, with "Well, shit."