Poll: Let's Discuss Piracy

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Orcus The Ultimate

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Pirates are like Bankers or Lawyers, they represent a Lobby, or group of power which has a more considerable amount than any other lobby, and that's why many wants them out of the game.

on my behalf i consider that they are necessary because it's like if you'd eliminate tuna fish from the ocean, there will be consequences afterwards with the remaining predators and symbiotic species. also they are essential for the "events" that happened recently and those to come...

i don't ask you to agree, but just to think about it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8533641.stm
 

Doitpow

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Devour said:
How about all of you?
The Escapist is very anti piracy. I just wrote a dissertation on it, if you're interested. http://lookingdownongiants.blogspot.com/2010/05/anonymity-and-appropriation-politics-of.html

(yeah self promotion...yeah)
 

kirbydon

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Apr 15, 2009
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In some countries.... if you pirate stuff its okay. If you buy the original copy the masses will just say its a waste of money and you could have used it on better things like food or gas.

I know im in one of those countries. Philippines
NOT EVERY COUNTRY IS RICH WE HAVE THIRD-WORLD COUNTRIES

Whenever I buy original software I get bitched on by everyone cause its a waste. I can buy pirated movies, games and music in public, in malls, in plain sight.

If people can't afford/have something ingenuity kicks in.
I know its bad... but unless companies scale their prices to the places they sell them (just software i know about physical stuff and its costs to make each one) things like this will happen.
 

Ghost1800

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Apr 8, 2009
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Devour said:
Another point to consider: Pirates force companies to make decent games / release extra free content. They're the ones that force companies to have a standard.
No, pirates just convince companies that their product is good enough to play but people are cheap bastards and don't want to pay money for it. Paying consumers who don't buy a product are what convince companies to make a better product, pirates just give them an excuse to say "Arr!!! It's the pirates fault we made no money, let's make something that makes Securom seem non-intrusive and relatively benign!!!"
 

Devour

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Ghost1800 said:
No, pirates just convince companies that their product is good enough to play but people are cheap bastards and don't want to pay money for it. Paying consumers who don't buy a product are what convince companies to make a better product, pirates just give them an excuse to say "Arr!!! It's the pirates fault we made no money, let's make something that makes Securom seem non-intrusive and relatively benign!!!"
EA have started to remove DRM from their products BECAUSE of piracy. They admitted it doesn't equal lost sales, but DRM does.

Link to article on it. [http://news.softpedia.com/news/EA-Admits-Pirated-Copies-Do-Not-Equal-Lost-Sales-94516.shtml]

Only the moronic companies blame it on piracy anymore.
 

Uncompetative

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Devour said:
No one wants to discuss piracy? o_O
I would very much like to take this opportunity to ask a self-declared 'Pirate' what they thought about the recent case of a man who was sued for $4,500,000 for illegally downloading 31 songs from the web. The case is summarised here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_v._Tenenbaum

I would have thought most reasonable people would think that this was a ridiculous sum. Even though the jury awarded the record companies "the middle option" of $675,000 it appears that Joel Tenenbaum faces financial ruin for something he apparently did whilst still a child.

I feel that it would be reasonable to ask for the loss of profits from the individual tracks - assuming $0.99
on iTunes that wouldn't be $30.69 plus the prosecution's costs. The individuals who originally "ripped" each track - say "Heart Shaped Box" would have to have bought Nirvana's "In Utero" CD and as a digital copy is not theft as the original remains (only a hard to enforce breach of licence, if one were even applied), I don't see that they are at fault. In fact, were "ripping" to be wrong, then how come I can choose 'Preferences' in the 'iTunes' menu and in the General pane, choose to Import CD and Eject when you insert a CD? Why do we all have iPods and secondary backup drives full of our legitimately-purchased media collections if this copying were fundamentally illegal?

My conclusion is that the RIAA is entitled to make a fuss and prosecute people who effectively receive "stolen goods". Okay, I know there is no actual theft... I understand the semantic arguments the Pirates make. However, me ripping a CD to my iTunes library and then syncing it to my iPod for my own personal use should be an acceptable extension of the implicit licence that accompanies the digital media encoded on the CD, if I were to upload that MP3 to a website (say, to protect it in case my house burnt down), that would also be ok. So, the RIAA are wrong to go after people who upload copies of stuff they legitimately own and only have a right under the law to mount prosecutions of those that download.

However, this is a logistical nightmare for them.

They would far rather randomly pick one poor soul and sue them for the total damages arising from an MP3 being part of a file-share (where the act of downloading one track enables that track's distribution to a great many others, so the RIAA are seeking compensation on behalf of the relevant record companies which has apparently been "lost in sales" by all those other file-sharers not needing to purchase the original copy), than do what they are actually entitled to do - which is, mount multiple individual cases for typically < $100 from multiple individuals.

Rather than claim that copyright infringement isn't theft as the original remains, or that there has been no "loss in sales" as most of these users of file-share networks wouldn't have bought the tracks they got that way if the file-share technology hadn't been invented, or that record companies are too rich anyway... it may progress the argument (and get fairer judgements in court) if the case were made that the RIAA were right to sue Joel Tenenbaum, but ought to be either suing everyone who shared those files for the relatively small "loss in sales" that those record companies had incurred, or at least give him the option of it being treated as petty theft and being given a couple of days of community service, or at worst a day in prison

tl;dr version:

I only look like a Pirate.
 

Asehujiko

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Devour said:
Asehujiko said:
I think that if we decided to ban everybody who's arguments against piracy basically comes down to "I'm so right I don't need to give any arguments and you are so wrong that I will ignore all your arguments and just tell you again that you are wrong" we'd end up with more pro-piracy people then anti-piracy people.
I know you from somewhere. Are you on B12G?

And, yep, you're pretty much right.

"IT'Z ILLEGULZ AND THERE4 WRONG".

Another point to consider: Pirates force companies to make decent games / release extra free content. They're the ones that force companies to have a standard.
Yes, I use the same name there. I'm only active in Other Games, the new version is slightly too buggy atm for my taste.
 

Devour

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Oct 21, 2009
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Asehujiko said:
Yes, I use the same name there. I'm only active in Other Games, the new version is slightly too buggy atm for my taste.
I have to admit, it's a bit all over the place, but the features are sound. The only trouble is stuff like less strong metals being unable to break through more strong metal armour. That just doesn't make any sense.
 

squid5580

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Feb 20, 2008
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More Fun To Compute said:
I think that piracy should be covered by civil law and not criminal law. Locking someone up for copying that floppy seems to be wrong.
This. Take the value of said product (like 60 bucks for a game) add in court costs and that should be the fine. That way no one is getting rich off the system and everyone breaks even.
 

StriderShinryu

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Alpha1089 said:
The definition of theft is centuries old and in serious need of an update to match modern times. Regardless of what it's called though, piracy is wrong. People try to make a living by putting their time and effort into a piece of software that you than get to enjoy for free. That's wrong, plain and simple.

You don't want to pay for it, you don't get it.
You can't afford it, you don't get it.
It has annoying DRM you don't like, you don't get it.
You want to try a game before you buy, you get the demo.
You want to listen to a band before you buy, you check Youtube or band sites for official music videos and song streaming.
Yep, this. No point in making any sort of lengthy post in a topic like this one, and this post pretty clearly echoes my own feelings.
 

NeutralMunchHotel

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Devour said:
Ghost1800 said:
No, pirates just convince companies that their product is good enough to play but people are cheap bastards and don't want to pay money for it. Paying consumers who don't buy a product are what convince companies to make a better product, pirates just give them an excuse to say "Arr!!! It's the pirates fault we made no money, let's make something that makes Securom seem non-intrusive and relatively benign!!!"
EA have started to remove DRM from their products BECAUSE of piracy. They admitted it doesn't equal lost sales, but DRM does.

Link to article on it. [http://news.softpedia.com/news/EA-Admits-Pirated-Copies-Do-Not-Equal-Lost-Sales-94516.shtml]

Only the moronic companies blame it on piracy anymore.
Tell that to the people behind the Humble Indie Bundle, for one thing.

25% of 'Bundle's were pirated. With the remaining 75%, they broke one million dollars. Now, with my GCSE level maths employed, I can tell you that the developers missed out on around thirty five and a half thousand dollars. For charity.

For reference:

333,333 > 0

That is, if piracy didn't exist they would make an estimated $333,333 dollars, but as it does, they made nothing. I realise there are a few minor flaws with this, but whatever, boil it down and you get these figures.

Again, this is for charity, and I'm pretty sure that $333,333 equates to a hefty number of additional sales.
 

Devour

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Gilbert Munch said:
Tell that to the people behind the Humble Indie Bundle, for one thing.

25% of 'Bundle's were pirated. With the remaining 75%, they broke one million dollars. Now, with my GCSE level maths employed, I can tell you that the developers missed out on around thirty five and a half thousand dollars. For charity.

For reference:

333,333 > 0

That is, if piracy didn't exist they would make an estimated $333,333 dollars, but as it does, they made nothing. I realise there are a few minor flaws with this, but whatever, boil it down and you get these figures.

Again, this is for charity, and I'm pretty sure that $333,333 equates to a hefty number of additional sales.
That maths makes no sense. Assuming there was no way to pirate it, then they'd be forced to use their credit / debit cards. If they all had their credit cards and were of the same personality as the pirates, they'd just pay $0.01, resulting in a total of (assuming, I don't know, 250k pirates) $2500.

Not that much.
 

NeutralMunchHotel

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Devour said:
Gilbert Munch said:
Tell that to the people behind the Humble Indie Bundle, for one thing.

25% of 'Bundle's were pirated. With the remaining 75%, they broke one million dollars. Now, with my GCSE level maths employed, I can tell you that the developers missed out on around thirty five and a half thousand dollars. For charity.

For reference:

333,333 > 0

That is, if piracy didn't exist they would make an estimated $333,333 dollars, but as it does, they made nothing. I realise there are a few minor flaws with this, but whatever, boil it down and you get these figures.

Again, this is for charity, and I'm pretty sure that $333,333 equates to a hefty number of additional sales.
That maths makes no sense. Assuming there was no way to pirate it, then they'd be forced to use their credit / debit cards. If they all had their credit cards and were of the same personality as the pirates, they'd just pay $0.01, resulting in a total of (assuming, I don't know, 250k pirates) $2500.

Not that much.
You're looking at this wrong. This hypothetical situation is that piracy has never existed, and there has never been any way to illegally download software.

Now, imagine that people hadn't been able to use this crutch. Everyone would have grown up knowing that they had to pay for all their music, films, games etc., and would have a greater respect for the developers and coughed up more than a measly cent.

Now, don't get me wrong, I've pirated a few albums in my time (never games though, for some reason my twisted moral compass won't let me do that. That, or my PC can't handle many games...) but even I could find it in my heart to give up a tenner for games that would usually cost far more.

So, as for my original maths, I'd say it still stands. And even if it doesn't, lets say half and call it 165,000. That's still quite a lot of money being missed out on. Anyway, the article you linked to was about sales. In this case, a $0.01 sale is still a sale.
 
Mar 9, 2009
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Arcticflame said:
mrpenguinismyhomeboy said:
Then again, piracy is in effect, stealing. You are taking something that you are legal required to pay for and not paying for it, except for maybe internet charges.
But that isn't the definition of stealing. Stealing is taking something that isn't yours, in the process depriving someone of that item.

Not that piracy isn't bad, it's just something else entirely from theft.
Alright, fair point, but you are still acquiring something through illegal means. It's a different type of stealing. You are stealing hypothetical profits. It is immaterial theft.
 

Arcticflame

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mrpenguinismyhomeboy said:
Arcticflame said:
mrpenguinismyhomeboy said:
Then again, piracy is in effect, stealing. You are taking something that you are legal required to pay for and not paying for it, except for maybe internet charges.
But that isn't the definition of stealing. Stealing is taking something that isn't yours, in the process depriving someone of that item.

Not that piracy isn't bad, it's just something else entirely from theft.
Alright, fair point, but you are still acquiring something through illegal means. It's a different type of stealing. You are stealing hypothetical profits. It is immaterial theft.
But then you reach the other problem, what if the person never would get the software if there was a price attached? In that case you aren't stealing profits, you are stealing nothing.

They have no right to download it and use it sure, but that in itself is not enough to say that they have stolen profits.

I highly doubt the millions of people who have photoshop illegally would buy it if they couldn't pirate it, after all most people who download it just dick around and give up.
In that case it isn't theft, as they havent deprived adobe of the software, it isn't immaterial theft, as they havent removed profits, and it is illegal, but morally blank. Easily arguable to either side of the spectrum.
 

ModReap

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Apr 3, 2008
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Kingcallum said:

(this applies to anyone who have ever involved in piracy)

OT:If I ever made a masterpiece then people pirated it and sold it and all that shit i'd be pretty pissed so...yeah. Piracy is bad.
ninja'd
 

Indecipherable

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Mar 21, 2010
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Devour said:
Let's address what economists / consumers usually think of piracy:-
  • [li]It's a natural part of consumer behaviour. It's a way to test the waters of a product. Attempting to shut it down doesn't do anything useful.[/li]
    [li]The vast majority of people who have access to the internet have done an act of piracy on the internet (something like 90% of teens had over 700 illegally downloaded songs on their portable music players). Making piracy an arrestable crime under law would mean a lot of people would be criminalised for it. See American prohibition, which created organised crime.[/li]
    [li]More anti-piracy stuff = Fewer sales and more piracy. See Spore as an example of serious DRM getting the game into a piracy whirlwind.[/li]
    [li]Wares are generally of a better quality than the product itself.[/li]
    [li]Consumers don't really consider it a crime, simply because it's not causing anyone any real harm.[/li]
Well this will require a significant response. The TLDR is "total utter bulls***". I'm in the progress of an Economics degree (2nd year, and now being invited to attend honours course information for future study as a high performing student), so take this information as someone who has studied but is not a 'master of the information'.

You say a lot in this post without providing any actual support. Rattling this information as fact doesn't add anything to your argument whatsoever, if anything, it gives great fuel to burn it down. Let's go from the start.

Let's address what economists / consumers usually think of piracy:-
Who? Give me any one economist who provides this information.

It's a natural part of consumer behaviour. It's a way to test the waters of a product. Attempting to shut it down doesn't do anything useful
A three step argument. A natural part of consumer behaviour doesn't mean anything. Purchasing something is natural. So is consumption. There is a natural behaviour in humans to fight amongst ourselves, either in grand or small scales (wars for dominance). That doesn't necessarily make them desirable.

It's a way to test the waters of a product requires some kind of example or validation. It gives no explanation of how this might be the case. Are we to assume that an item more desirable will be stolen more frequently, hence this is how the waters are tested? To see how many people steal the good? You don't present a case, instead present a line that doesn't give any evidence.

Attempting to shut it down doesn't do anything useful. Well that can be proven false in economic terms.

A very brief rundown; feel free to google these terms, and wikipedia may give you a pretty rough source to get some ideas. We as humans behave under a generalised principle used in economics termed homo economicus. We take actions that benefit ourselves (and by the same token, benefitting others that we may gain benefit from doing). The theft of a good produced by an action (such as stealing a game from a developer) decreases the good they receive, and reduces their supply.

The theft of the good causes them to invest into technologies such as DRM and other copyright protection. This increases the cost of the good, reducing demand and hence supply once more.

There is a deadweight loss from this action - the deadweight loss is the loss of benefit to the community by the consumption and production of the item. This is in direct cause of the theft of the good and the decreased willingness to produce and also consume the item with the associated costs (and losses) now involved. This deadweight loss means we all get less.

Developers hence are less likely to enter the field and create games when they know their product will cost more, be pirated, and be in less demand. The overall result is that we get less games made.

The vast majority of people who have access to the internet have done an act of piracy on the internet (something like 90% of teens had over 700 illegally downloaded songs on their portable music players). Making piracy an arrestable crime under law would mean a lot of people would be criminalised for it
I can say that you would likely believe slavery to be a crime. However it was widely accepted only a short time ago in human history. What people consider to be right or wrong is not ethically accurate - hence the defintion difference between morality and ethics. Everything after this statement can hence be proven wrong because popular opinion =/= truth.

More anti-piracy stuff = Fewer sales and more piracy. See Spore as an example of serious DRM getting the game into a piracy whirlwind
is true, because of the increased cost of the good, where developers need to account for theft so they may still make a profit, and also for the increased costs of installing copyright protection. This is however a result of consumer behaviour, and ironically should be blamed on the pirates, not the producers. Your argument is entirely opposite to what you aim for.

Wares are generally of a better quality than the product itself
. I've never really seen a cracked game that was better than the original. If anything the risk of viruses and trojans make a pirated game less useful, and the prospect of constant new cracks to break new updates make them more unwieldly and further less useful.

Consumers don't really consider it a crime, simply because it's not causing anyone any real harm
This can be literally proven wrong. And guess what, I just did. I could make some graphs for you too, but you can research it yourself into deadweight losses and supply/demand curves (a great example would be to consider a tax and view the changes made).

Pretty much your whole argument is absolutely positively and outrageously false.
 

MrTub

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Mar 12, 2009
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There is a reason to my 100mb/s internet. I dont really think its wrong since I download games/movies and if they are any good I will buy them when I get the money for it, and the reason I download tv shows is cause I have to wait about 3-4 months before it comes to sweden -.-
 

Flying-Emu

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Devour said:
So, think about it like this. Piracy is a natural consumer method (equal to getting a taster of a product at a shop, except the product can be made through Star Trek-esque production machines) to testing out a product. Companies and governments want to (for whatever reason, probably making more money and being authoritarian) be able to control and monitor your every move, as well as stopping you from being able to test a product before you buy it.

People can claim that piracy is a crime, but I know which one of these I think is the bigger crime.
Doesn't matter if it's a "bigger crime." They made the product, they have ABSOLUTELY every right to control it with all the power of the Third Reich if they so choose.

To use your example: I walk into a local pastry shop, and loudly demand a free taste of every product the shop owner provides. When he hands me a sample of, say, an apple fritter, I proceed to devour the sample, plate, his entire stock of apple fritters, and a portion of his hand (for hilarity's sake.) I then walk out of the store, claiming that it was my "free trial" and he should have given it to me anyways.

I hate this stupid claim that piracy is only used for demoing a game, because it's never used that way. If you do just use it for that reason, good for you. I refuse to believe you, but good on you. Here's the kicker: Even if you DO just play the game for thirty minutes for your 'free trial,' you still broke the law, still took a product from a company without their permission.

As for the infinite copy thing; too fucking bad. If they decide that they want to give lines of 0's and 1's a price, and they coded those lines, you pay it, and you pay what they want. If you don't want to pay it, don't buy it. It's that simple. It's capitalism. Get used to it.