Just because you don't use the specific word doesn't mean you didn't just define it. The government is not altogether worried about what you do to yourself, its more what you can do to someone else. So if they government stopped 'dictating' what a person can do to themselves; it would be anarchy: the absence of government.Agayek said:
Poll: marajauna legalization
- Thread starter MasterChowmein
- Start date
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The third option would be to decriminalise it, as has been done in the netherlands. Anyone that can remember that famous scene in "Pulp Fiction" between John Travolta and Samuel Jackson (where they discussed the legal status of weed in Holland), would have an idea of what this would mean.
Personally, I have had a number of friends in Holland that have told me that 99.9% of the population treat weed the same as cigarettes or alcohol - ie you either take it or leave it. Decriminalisation hasn't lead to rampant drug usage or the population using the government controlled (and taxed) weed as a stepping stone to heavier drugs. It is true that some people everywhere that have smoked weed have eventually moved on to harder drugs, but there again there is always going to be people who are looking for the next big thing, whether it's an extreme sport, music, films or even drugs. It's all to do with addictive personalities. Perhaps with decriminalisation, doctors would be able to spot individuals with potential mental issues that weed or other drugs would exasperate.
If all drugs were legal and government controlled, then the stories we have all read in newspapers of addicts dying from bad drugs (ecstasy and heroin for example)would be a thing of the past. Government controlled recreational drugs would lessen the amount of senseless deaths, reduce the dependant-related crime levels drastically (why mug people or steal their property etc if the drugs were all clean and available from a pharmacist at a standard price?).
One thing, legalised drugs should only be available on prescription, so that medical practitioners could monitor usage. Maybe then we would have some unbiased research and evidence on whether clean and uncut drugs are as bad for us as some parties would lead us to believe. In the UK, weed is commonly available as canabis resin, which is often "cut" with all sorts of crap to bulk it out - even rubber from car tires! Regulated legalised canabis would be a step in the right direction towards a more peaceful time for us all. I'm not advocating that everyone should smoke a joint and hug their neighbours, but in my experience, alcohol does a lot more damage to the individual (liver damage etc), the family (physical abuse) and society than a bunch of stoners ever could. Lets be honest, most of them want to watch some inane crap on TV, eat a load of munchies and mellow out. Nights out in town would be a lot more relaxing if we didn't have to steer clear of the swathes of lager-louts looking for an uneven fight to round their night off.
I vote to decriminalise weed. Make it legal to possess small quantities for personal usage (either in the home or in designated places (like the dope cafes in Holland), but keep it illegal to produce it (without a licence) or to sell it (again, without a licence). Like some other posters have mentioned, I'd much rather weed was legal and cigarettes and alcohol were criminalised - or at the very least controlled. Too many lives have been wrecked through drunken violence or through inhaling second-hand cigarette smoke.
I can recall a fair number of people I have known over the years that have been either mentally or physically scarred by misuse of drugs. Most of them have said that a lot of the issues arise from what the various drugs are cut with. When drug lords (or terrorists, if what the governments are telling us is to be believed) are deciding what ingredients are put into the drugs that are consumed then no consumer has a clue as to what they are putting into their system and they might as well play russian roulette with a loaded handgun.
For anyone interested in looking deeper into this debate, there is a charity, based in the UK, that is attempting to prove the benefits of a recreational drug system monitored by the worlds governments - http://www.tdpf.org.uk/
Edit: Also, here's a small history of why Marijuana was made illegal in the US, and consequently in the rest of the western world (due to pressure from the US): http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/12/22/whyIsMarijuanaIllegal.html (make your own minds up if this blog entry is biased, but the fundimental facts of why it was criminalised remain)
Personally, I have had a number of friends in Holland that have told me that 99.9% of the population treat weed the same as cigarettes or alcohol - ie you either take it or leave it. Decriminalisation hasn't lead to rampant drug usage or the population using the government controlled (and taxed) weed as a stepping stone to heavier drugs. It is true that some people everywhere that have smoked weed have eventually moved on to harder drugs, but there again there is always going to be people who are looking for the next big thing, whether it's an extreme sport, music, films or even drugs. It's all to do with addictive personalities. Perhaps with decriminalisation, doctors would be able to spot individuals with potential mental issues that weed or other drugs would exasperate.
If all drugs were legal and government controlled, then the stories we have all read in newspapers of addicts dying from bad drugs (ecstasy and heroin for example)would be a thing of the past. Government controlled recreational drugs would lessen the amount of senseless deaths, reduce the dependant-related crime levels drastically (why mug people or steal their property etc if the drugs were all clean and available from a pharmacist at a standard price?).
One thing, legalised drugs should only be available on prescription, so that medical practitioners could monitor usage. Maybe then we would have some unbiased research and evidence on whether clean and uncut drugs are as bad for us as some parties would lead us to believe. In the UK, weed is commonly available as canabis resin, which is often "cut" with all sorts of crap to bulk it out - even rubber from car tires! Regulated legalised canabis would be a step in the right direction towards a more peaceful time for us all. I'm not advocating that everyone should smoke a joint and hug their neighbours, but in my experience, alcohol does a lot more damage to the individual (liver damage etc), the family (physical abuse) and society than a bunch of stoners ever could. Lets be honest, most of them want to watch some inane crap on TV, eat a load of munchies and mellow out. Nights out in town would be a lot more relaxing if we didn't have to steer clear of the swathes of lager-louts looking for an uneven fight to round their night off.
I vote to decriminalise weed. Make it legal to possess small quantities for personal usage (either in the home or in designated places (like the dope cafes in Holland), but keep it illegal to produce it (without a licence) or to sell it (again, without a licence). Like some other posters have mentioned, I'd much rather weed was legal and cigarettes and alcohol were criminalised - or at the very least controlled. Too many lives have been wrecked through drunken violence or through inhaling second-hand cigarette smoke.
I can recall a fair number of people I have known over the years that have been either mentally or physically scarred by misuse of drugs. Most of them have said that a lot of the issues arise from what the various drugs are cut with. When drug lords (or terrorists, if what the governments are telling us is to be believed) are deciding what ingredients are put into the drugs that are consumed then no consumer has a clue as to what they are putting into their system and they might as well play russian roulette with a loaded handgun.
For anyone interested in looking deeper into this debate, there is a charity, based in the UK, that is attempting to prove the benefits of a recreational drug system monitored by the worlds governments - http://www.tdpf.org.uk/
Edit: Also, here's a small history of why Marijuana was made illegal in the US, and consequently in the rest of the western world (due to pressure from the US): http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stories/2003/12/22/whyIsMarijuanaIllegal.html (make your own minds up if this blog entry is biased, but the fundimental facts of why it was criminalised remain)
I agree with this to an extent, the problem is countries such as the UK. We have a "free" health care system (NHS) in that medical treatment does not cost the individual, but we pay taxes towards keeping it that way.Agayek said:
The problem lies in that the taxpayer would be required to pay more for the NHS to run because the amount of people requiring treatment would increase.
In a country with private healthcare? I agree completely.
The mental side effects of the drug compared too alcohol are massively more damaging.Shnoogle said:
Somehow my point is not being conveyed.selfresolution said:
I fully support government and laws limiting and controlling what can be done to others. For example, I firmly believe the government should pass and enforce laws ensuring people cannot kill, attack, rape or steal from each other.
On the other hand, I am firmly against the government limiting and controlling what can be done to the self. For example, all narcotics should be illegal IMO. If, under the influence of narcotics, someone breaks one of the aforementioned laws and attacks/robs someone, they should be punished most severely.
I am very much not against government. I simply believe that government exists to guarantee individual liberty. Not to protect stupids from themselves.
Show me the evidence (not unsubstantiated opinions) that weed alone is guilty of causing permanent mental side effects in individuals that haven't already got a propensity for them. There is a wealth of biased hocus on both sides of the argument about the supposed ill-effects of marijuana. There have not been, to the best of my knowledge, any unbiased and completely open substatial drug-trials that have proven or disproven any ill-effects (apart from the ill-effects of smoking it with tobacco - lung disease etc). Most of the trials that have been done to date are akin to the trials carried out with tobacco in the 60's and 70's, sponsored by the tobacco industry, that concluded that tobacco had no ill effects. If you go into an experiment with a preconception, then your conclusions are going to be coloured (sorry, but as a Brit I am not dropping the "u"!) by that preconception.murphy7801 said:
Im british so leave the u please. Anyway there's loads psychological research papers been printed on the mental side effects of cannabis. Hear's a little summary http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/cannabis-linked-with-mental-health-problems-1623187.html . My mother has looked in the research and some of the up and coming research (she is a DR of psychology) and basically all looks bad any mental illness possibility or even may cause it.Shnoogle said:
Make all drugs legal and homegrown to wound the Taliban and save Mexico. Much is made of the need to cure our 'addiction' to foreign oil; the same logic applies with foreign drugs made or grown by violent cartels and terrorists.
I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just making the point that there has been literally billions of dollars spent over the last 70-odd years demonising canabis. Most of the propaganda was at least misleading, if not outright lies. I'm also not saying that consuming weed is problem free. At the end of the day, people commonly suffer from mental issues and physical issues from alcohol abuse. Any substance can have the capacity to harm in large quantities, or from extended exposure (it is even possible to poison your body with water! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_intoxication ). It just seems to me that as alcohol and weed have both been consumed by humans for thousands of years, it is strange that evidence of the alleged mental health implications of consuming marijuana is only just coming to light. It has been commonly known that excessive consumption of alcohol can lead to mental health issues for almost as long as man has been making alcohol. If the mental health implications of marijuana usage were as severe as some "experts" would have us believe, then why is it only now in recent years that this is coming to light? In my mind, everyone has the right to abuse their own system with whatever they wish.... but only if they limit that abuse to themselves. Forcing third parties to suffer due to your addictions is both morally wrong and cowardly and should be punished accordingly. Unbiased education about the proven ill-effects of all intoxicants is the right of all children and adults in a free society. Give people the real facts about drugs (including alcohol and tobacco) and they can make an informed decision.
PS Is this a levelled "U" _?
Just kidding!
I don't smoke weed but I really can't see why it's illegal... cigarettes and beer are way worse for you.
Na man this is called for, there is like one of these threads a f***ing day!!Jenkins said:
[Anyway, legalize it, it'll help the economy and stop black market trading of drugs. But keep the driving under the influence law, punishable by jail time.]
-Joe
Well the ability to research mental illness has advanced so much recently mris and the application of logical techniques. Also funding in the area has massively increased. But basically doing cannabis even once seems to have some very mild mental effects which progress quite rapidly progress because seems to make brain growth develop in very unhealthy ways. oh and leave the u lolShnoogle said:I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just making the point that there has been literally billions of dollars spent over the last 70-odd years demonising canabis. Most of the propaganda was at least misleading, if not outright lies. I'm also not saying that consuming weed is problem free. At the end of the day, people commonly suffer from mental issues and physical issues from alcohol abuse. Any substance can have the capacity to harm in large quantities, or from extended exposure. It just seems to me that as alcohol and weed have both been consumed by humans for thousands of years, it is strange that evidence of the alleged mental health implications of consuming marijuana is only just coming to light. It has been commonly known that excessive consumption of alcohol can lead to mental health issues for almost as long as man has been making alcohol. If the mental health implications of marijuana usage were as severe as some "experts" would have us believe, then why is it only now in recent years that this is coming to light? In my mind, everyone has the right to abuse their own system with whatever they wish.... but only if they limit that abuse to themselves. Forcing third parties to suffer due to your addictions is both morally wrong and cowardly and should be punished accordingly. Unbiased education about the proven ill-effects of all intoxicants is the right of all children and adults in a free society. Give people the real facts about drugs (including alcohol and tobacco) and they can make an informed decision.
PS Is this a levelled "U" _?
I'm not too fussed either way, it's illegal and yet millions of people seem to get hold of it and use it regularly.
Just legalise it, grow and farm it in your own country, put your flag on the packet and get patriotic people contributing to the economy.
One thing I have noticed however, most of the arguments against seem to be of the 'but if it was legal, people would do this' variety.
Just make it legal, but make it illegal to use in certain situations, it works for alcohol.
What's more the simple social unacceptance of drunkeness in public, in the morning, or drink drivers, etc, I'm sure would carry over to marijuana smoking also.
If you saw a guy slumped in a doorway with a bong, at 10am, buzzed out of his head, you'd probably think he was a loser, even tho you had friends who smoke it socially at weekends, and evenings, right?
Same way you can go out drinking, but that guy who flails around in the park with a bottle of gin, swearing at pigeons isn't the same as the guy relaxing in a bar.
What we need is for the Government to approach it sensibly (HAH!), legalising it, taxing it, and then putting aside part of the tax money to care for those who find themselves having a problem with it. Over here in the UK, a fair amount of the tax paid on tobacco goes into our health system, therefore, smoking means you're essentially paying for your own cancer care, if you're daft enough to slowly kill yourself with cigarettes.
Another thing, smoking is rapidly becoming illegal to do ANYWHERE, surely if marijuana was legalised, it'd fit the same rules, only in your own home, or designated smoking areas.
Just legalise it, grow and farm it in your own country, put your flag on the packet and get patriotic people contributing to the economy.
One thing I have noticed however, most of the arguments against seem to be of the 'but if it was legal, people would do this' variety.
Just make it legal, but make it illegal to use in certain situations, it works for alcohol.
What's more the simple social unacceptance of drunkeness in public, in the morning, or drink drivers, etc, I'm sure would carry over to marijuana smoking also.
If you saw a guy slumped in a doorway with a bong, at 10am, buzzed out of his head, you'd probably think he was a loser, even tho you had friends who smoke it socially at weekends, and evenings, right?
Same way you can go out drinking, but that guy who flails around in the park with a bottle of gin, swearing at pigeons isn't the same as the guy relaxing in a bar.
What we need is for the Government to approach it sensibly (HAH!), legalising it, taxing it, and then putting aside part of the tax money to care for those who find themselves having a problem with it. Over here in the UK, a fair amount of the tax paid on tobacco goes into our health system, therefore, smoking means you're essentially paying for your own cancer care, if you're daft enough to slowly kill yourself with cigarettes.
Another thing, smoking is rapidly becoming illegal to do ANYWHERE, surely if marijuana was legalised, it'd fit the same rules, only in your own home, or designated smoking areas.
Legalization would be incredibly difficult, but I think it'd be worth it.
I don't smoke, but I have friends who do, and they have to go to shady dealers (or friends who went to shady dealers, or grow it) who don't care if you're smoking shit laced with PCP or coke or something else. It would be safer for those who choose to smoke it if it was legalized and could be monitored and regulated, and the revenue from it would be ridiculous.
And besides, it's stupid that you get into worse trouble for having pot than you do for beating your wife. Maybe if the government would let up on marijuana they could focus on more important things.
I don't smoke, but I have friends who do, and they have to go to shady dealers (or friends who went to shady dealers, or grow it) who don't care if you're smoking shit laced with PCP or coke or something else. It would be safer for those who choose to smoke it if it was legalized and could be monitored and regulated, and the revenue from it would be ridiculous.
And besides, it's stupid that you get into worse trouble for having pot than you do for beating your wife. Maybe if the government would let up on marijuana they could focus on more important things.
I'm just going to copy and paste what I put on another similar topic, it might not be 100% relevant but it certainly expresses my views on this matter:
I don't condone drugs, or drug use, I've used them myself (only weed, used to be quite regular) and have nothing against them. When you say drugs, you really are lumping together an enormous amount and hammering it into a small and stigmatised pigeon hole.
Weed. Reportedly more carcinogenic than Tobacco, but consumed in much lower quantities, not chemically addictive. When people get addicted to it, it is to fill a hole in themselves, they become habitually addicted because they don't know how to function without feeling high. If it wasn't cannabis it would be something else. This isn't a plus point but it raises a much more important issue. The highest percentage of people habitually addicted to weed are from broken homes, bad backgrounds, poor education, abusive/negligent parents. The real issues that need to be addressed are the failings in our society that cause people to turn to weed in the first place. They are the same issues that turn people onto constant alcoholism and harder substances.
It's like the fox hunting debacle in Great Britain, the ruling party use issues such as this to pull attention away from their more devastating failures. When governments need to be seen to be doing something, they go the easy route: The War on Drugs. Not the War on shit teachers, not the war on shit schools, not the war on bad parenting, poorly run state welfare, child abuse, health care, employment etc etc. These are issues that they are either too scared or too incompetent to solve for fear of law suits, or spending billions of tax payer money on some hair brained scheme that is doomed to fail. The fact is modern governments are so weighed down under the mounds of bureaucracy, they simply don't have the ability or the courage to tackle these problems.
Drugs are like sex offenders and murderers, they're "evil", no one will disagree or find contention with the aims of a "War on Drugs" and it is much easier to produce positive, albeit frankly futile, results.
"Look here mindless simpletons, we busted a small farm of marijuana that was poisoning our society with its evil ways! It only took months of police resources and thousands in tax, but our work is done! Gaze upon our crime busting glory! What's that you say? Knife/gun crime on the rise? Child Abuse and failing foster care systems? Nonsense, it's the War on Drugs that matters!"
It is a proven fact that recreational use of weed is much less dangerous than smoking tobacco or alcohol. It is impossible to Overdose on THC by smoking Marijuana. It's medical uses are numerous and powerful. Its bi-product is Hemp, a low cost, low maintenance - high yield substance that has multiple uses: Bio Fuel, Clothing, Lubricating Oils and perhaps most significantly - paper. If it was legal it would be the ideal crop for 3rd world countries to produce. Bringing industry, jobs and prosperity to impoverished countries.
When it comes to pharmaceuticals, people are woefully ignorant. Medicine is really lovely word for drugs isn't it. When you think of medicine you think of running 3 miles in 10 minutes, a cancer free, golden haired pillar of society, running free and healthy thanks to medicine. Some of the shit that gets prescribed to the general public on an alarmingly regular basis, all legal, all untaxed, all at huge corporate profit, is horrifying. Anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, mood enhancers; all thrown at men, women and children like fucking jelly beans and no one bats an eyelid.
The main reason why Marijuana is failing to be legalised is because more established corporations that invest in timber and other competing markets put extreme pressure on their governments to think otherwise, and in some cases vilify it's production.
If a 9 year old smokes weed, is it the drug producer's fault, or the fucking incompetent parent's fault? The fact is if the government regulated its use, much less of it would find its way into children's hands. Yes there will always be a black market for things, but your average dealer would never, ever be able to compete with a legalised distribution chain. Shady dealers that sell dangerous weed to young people would cease to exist.
Now when we talk about things like: cocaine, heroin & other opiates, Meth, crack, Amphetamines. Yes these are all, unarguably, terrible things, but they're increasingly wide spread use is at its core, a child of the failures of our society and its governing bodies. People really need to educate themselves before ranting and raving like mindless automatons about Drugs, be specific.
What are drugs good for? Well the Beatles, creators of modern music as we know it, if they weren't high as the bloody Hubble Telescope, I'm the arch-angel Gabriel.
I don't condone drugs, or drug use, I've used them myself (only weed, used to be quite regular) and have nothing against them. When you say drugs, you really are lumping together an enormous amount and hammering it into a small and stigmatised pigeon hole.
Weed. Reportedly more carcinogenic than Tobacco, but consumed in much lower quantities, not chemically addictive. When people get addicted to it, it is to fill a hole in themselves, they become habitually addicted because they don't know how to function without feeling high. If it wasn't cannabis it would be something else. This isn't a plus point but it raises a much more important issue. The highest percentage of people habitually addicted to weed are from broken homes, bad backgrounds, poor education, abusive/negligent parents. The real issues that need to be addressed are the failings in our society that cause people to turn to weed in the first place. They are the same issues that turn people onto constant alcoholism and harder substances.
It's like the fox hunting debacle in Great Britain, the ruling party use issues such as this to pull attention away from their more devastating failures. When governments need to be seen to be doing something, they go the easy route: The War on Drugs. Not the War on shit teachers, not the war on shit schools, not the war on bad parenting, poorly run state welfare, child abuse, health care, employment etc etc. These are issues that they are either too scared or too incompetent to solve for fear of law suits, or spending billions of tax payer money on some hair brained scheme that is doomed to fail. The fact is modern governments are so weighed down under the mounds of bureaucracy, they simply don't have the ability or the courage to tackle these problems.
Drugs are like sex offenders and murderers, they're "evil", no one will disagree or find contention with the aims of a "War on Drugs" and it is much easier to produce positive, albeit frankly futile, results.
"Look here mindless simpletons, we busted a small farm of marijuana that was poisoning our society with its evil ways! It only took months of police resources and thousands in tax, but our work is done! Gaze upon our crime busting glory! What's that you say? Knife/gun crime on the rise? Child Abuse and failing foster care systems? Nonsense, it's the War on Drugs that matters!"
It is a proven fact that recreational use of weed is much less dangerous than smoking tobacco or alcohol. It is impossible to Overdose on THC by smoking Marijuana. It's medical uses are numerous and powerful. Its bi-product is Hemp, a low cost, low maintenance - high yield substance that has multiple uses: Bio Fuel, Clothing, Lubricating Oils and perhaps most significantly - paper. If it was legal it would be the ideal crop for 3rd world countries to produce. Bringing industry, jobs and prosperity to impoverished countries.
When it comes to pharmaceuticals, people are woefully ignorant. Medicine is really lovely word for drugs isn't it. When you think of medicine you think of running 3 miles in 10 minutes, a cancer free, golden haired pillar of society, running free and healthy thanks to medicine. Some of the shit that gets prescribed to the general public on an alarmingly regular basis, all legal, all untaxed, all at huge corporate profit, is horrifying. Anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, mood enhancers; all thrown at men, women and children like fucking jelly beans and no one bats an eyelid.
The main reason why Marijuana is failing to be legalised is because more established corporations that invest in timber and other competing markets put extreme pressure on their governments to think otherwise, and in some cases vilify it's production.
If a 9 year old smokes weed, is it the drug producer's fault, or the fucking incompetent parent's fault? The fact is if the government regulated its use, much less of it would find its way into children's hands. Yes there will always be a black market for things, but your average dealer would never, ever be able to compete with a legalised distribution chain. Shady dealers that sell dangerous weed to young people would cease to exist.
Now when we talk about things like: cocaine, heroin & other opiates, Meth, crack, Amphetamines. Yes these are all, unarguably, terrible things, but they're increasingly wide spread use is at its core, a child of the failures of our society and its governing bodies. People really need to educate themselves before ranting and raving like mindless automatons about Drugs, be specific.
What are drugs good for? Well the Beatles, creators of modern music as we know it, if they weren't high as the bloody Hubble Telescope, I'm the arch-angel Gabriel.
NO, i know to much about the mechanism of our brain and what it does with it - it is much more dangerous than most of the users can imagine.