Yes I have read about that and it doesn't always work. I have been out of the country and seen some of that and your right, it's not pretty.Wyatt said:
D'OH sorry about the double post...
Poll: Obama Shutting Down Guantanamo Bay. Good or Bad?
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D'OH sorry about the double post...
Um, we seem to have a misunderstanding here; sorry.Frank_Sinatra_ said:
I wasn't asking if this happens. I'm well aware that it does happen around the world, notably in China, Iran, Burma, Singapore... sadly it's far from rare.
I was asking if this is acceptable to you as a model. Do you see it as the right thing for a country to do?
Or to be more plain; do you really think that America should adopt the policies used by China, Iran, Burma, Singapore, and similar countries?
(And to add a bit to the question, could you see Thomas Paine or Benjamin Franklin thinking that this is a good and just policy?)
-- Steve
If we do that here then no it does not sit well with me, we should not adopt those policies.Anton P. Nym said:
Yes it seems we were arguing over 2 different things.
Do I think it's a good idea for us to stop torturing suspected terrorists? Uh...yeah. See, we have this little thing called the Constitution that's the foundation of America...Oh, and if you think it should be all right to violate the Constitution and basic rights because they aren't Americans, then it should be all right for them to bomb us, because we are foreign to them.
umm, it IS allright for them to bomb us, werent you around on 9/11? its a war, and in a war the other side can do anything you cant stop them from doing. i point this out because when we are talking about extra-nationel relations of any kind the only true LAW is the law of the biggest gun.thebobmaster said:
the constitution doesnt apply to the terrorists (suspected or otherwise) because number 1) they arent americans and number 2) they arent IN America.
as i said though American laws DO apply to the americans DOING the torture (and if they are millitary than the constitution doesnt apply to them either the UCMJ does). the prisoners at gitmo are under NO law. not American, not cuban, and in most cases not even the laws of what ever country we captured them from since those places HAD no laws at the time of the capture, and in Iraq for instiance the local law that is in place now doesnt WANT them back or afganistian either for that matter.
your argument seems to be that just because Americans are invovled that our laws should automaticly apply to what ever situation we are a part of. that is of course nonsence, if that WERE the case, why we could just send a platoon of Marines into N Korea and arrest the government there since under the US constitution they are guilty of ........ well something im sure, pick an American law and im certian they have broken it.
the constituion of America doesnt have any authority over non Americans outside our borders. there IS a reason why those people are being held in Gitmo and not in a state side prison you know. that is also the reason taht Bush blocked any attempt to get them moved state side at all ever for any reason. once their feet his American soil they are under American law.
this isnt just something i bring up because i hope to 'win' this particular argument either. this is a point that has been long establish, it is one of the most basic foundations of what it means to BE a nation. laws of any nation stop at their borders. gitmo isnt American soil so American laws dont apply there to NON Americans.
I think that it was a bad idea and not very well thought out. However, from a political support standpoint, it was genius.
I mean, we have to find somewhere to put all of these people. And whether or not that place will be secure, if the guards would be bribed or motivated by outside causes, etc...
And I don't really like the argument of "everyone deserves a fair trial." I think that's one of the downfalls of Democracy. Where is the logic in saying "This person has admitted, and effectively proven his direct involvement with the bombing of the World Trade Center. Now, let's give him a fair trial to debate whether or not he should actually be found guilty." It just doesn't make sense. It's the age-old rhetoric that you have to be able to apply one concept to every situation it could be used in. Well, why? Why can it not be circumstantial?
There were other methods of handling the problems of Guantanamo than shutting it down entirely.
I mean, we have to find somewhere to put all of these people. And whether or not that place will be secure, if the guards would be bribed or motivated by outside causes, etc...
And I don't really like the argument of "everyone deserves a fair trial." I think that's one of the downfalls of Democracy. Where is the logic in saying "This person has admitted, and effectively proven his direct involvement with the bombing of the World Trade Center. Now, let's give him a fair trial to debate whether or not he should actually be found guilty." It just doesn't make sense. It's the age-old rhetoric that you have to be able to apply one concept to every situation it could be used in. Well, why? Why can it not be circumstantial?
There were other methods of handling the problems of Guantanamo than shutting it down entirely.
Just fucking put hem In Alkatraz, Its not much Difference plus they can Kill all the San Fransico ppl and that would help gay marriage somehow I think. No but Srsly if Gitmo shuts down they'll just put them in another camp and fuck them up there. Tourter is fucked up, A better way of getting information is doesing there water with high amounts of caffine and letting them stay up for like 9 days listening to Deathmetal and they'll crack.
Yea let's close Guantanamo Bay and be nice to them, that's the way to fight a war against terrorists; after all, who deserves human rights more than captured terrorist... right?! BS! They're worse than animals, they shouldn't have any rights. Hell, I'd be thinking about expanding my boundaries, specially for nasty shit like this.
Crap Monkeys. I was gonna say yes great idea and this HAD to be the first post. I'm not even going to bother with this thread. Why? Because even though I believe in Obama, even though I don't think he's grandstanding you're still absolutely right. Guantanamo is the symptom, not the problem. Humanity needs a deep spiritual awakening or we're all screwed.avidabey said:
Just noting the irony of posting this with a Team America: World Police userpic, unless you too were going for satire. (If so, well done.)Huey1000 said:
-- Steve
"Suspected terrorists"...I hope you guys know how they got some of the prisoners in gt bay(no exact numbers of course, but even some are way too many)
The CIA offered great sums for "terrorist suspects" to afghan and pakistani officials, militias and warlords. Well, nothing easy as that. In most cases, those organisations had connections to terrorists and decided to have their cake and eat it as well.
So they randomly picked some innocent guys from the streets and delivered them to American bases. Some of the innocent prisoners were betrayed by neighbors who just didn't like them or wanted their houses and a nice monetary bonus. In most cases the CIA did not even care to counter check the background information of the prisoners. They packed them into a plane and took them to Gt Bay. Up to 5 years of fun ensued.
The Informants had lotta fun. They got rid of people they did not like or did not care about and got some money. Some even shared the money with the taliban...Oh sweet irony!
Well and if you are not an enemy of America before the 5 years in a prison where you are treated like an animal you will be most probably after that.
After some years the interrogators found out that these guys were innocent but they could not set them free. In fact, their home countries did not want "suspected terrorists" back, even if they were innocent. Same problem many of the prisoners are facing now.
Difficult, isn't it?
Of course, many prisoners were allignend to terrorist organizations or terrorists themselves but I really doubt this was the best way to deal with that, at least for the country claiming to fight for freedom and democracy.
Still talking about the "War on Terror" with such disregard for the realities of this "War" and the daily atrocities commited for nothing is just a sign of imbecilic jingoism and makes me feel sick. It's like the whole country has watched waay too much "24".
The CIA offered great sums for "terrorist suspects" to afghan and pakistani officials, militias and warlords. Well, nothing easy as that. In most cases, those organisations had connections to terrorists and decided to have their cake and eat it as well.
So they randomly picked some innocent guys from the streets and delivered them to American bases. Some of the innocent prisoners were betrayed by neighbors who just didn't like them or wanted their houses and a nice monetary bonus. In most cases the CIA did not even care to counter check the background information of the prisoners. They packed them into a plane and took them to Gt Bay. Up to 5 years of fun ensued.
The Informants had lotta fun. They got rid of people they did not like or did not care about and got some money. Some even shared the money with the taliban...Oh sweet irony!
Well and if you are not an enemy of America before the 5 years in a prison where you are treated like an animal you will be most probably after that.
After some years the interrogators found out that these guys were innocent but they could not set them free. In fact, their home countries did not want "suspected terrorists" back, even if they were innocent. Same problem many of the prisoners are facing now.
Difficult, isn't it?
Of course, many prisoners were allignend to terrorist organizations or terrorists themselves but I really doubt this was the best way to deal with that, at least for the country claiming to fight for freedom and democracy.
Still talking about the "War on Terror" with such disregard for the realities of this "War" and the daily atrocities commited for nothing is just a sign of imbecilic jingoism and makes me feel sick. It's like the whole country has watched waay too much "24".
Ha ha ha ha ha!Wyatt said:
No you're not. Not even close.
Everything you just said contradicts your claim to be a top level analyst for the NSA. You don't even pay attention to detail, for one. You also use incorrect analogies and examples, as well. I'm also pretty sure most analysts have better grammar and spelling skills, along with knowing how to properly capitalize and punctuate their sentences.
Dude, nothing I've said on here is a breach of any sort of confidentiality. Nor is there anything wrong with talking about it. Intelligence isn't some "great secret game" of spying on people, like Hollywood makes it out to be. There's a lot of ways to gather good intel that involve flat-out non-confidential work - simply more so than TS/SI intelligence. Why do I talk about it? Because no one should be afraid of it by lack of knowing how it works. And there shouldn't be people getting the wrong idea because of people spewing wrongful knowledge about it. I just happen to be on a gaming forum reading reviews and being friendly when this thread popped up.
One thing that always made me chuckle is the expectations of new bodies training for Intel saying they expected more from it. More James Bond-like action, more Q-like technology. I still laugh when people who claim they work there try to add a mysterious and spooky air to the job. Whee, intelligence is so glamorous. No - no it's not. It teeters back and forth between being interesting and tense, to being tedious and a pain in the ass.
Your original claim - and I paraphrase for everyone's sake to save them a headache - that torture works and we use it all the time is false. Information gathered from torture is a last resort. If anything, it just backs up what we already knew. But a wayward fact picked up from torture is never valid until we've triple-checked it and all other avenues are exhausted. Usually, elements in action never rely on a coerced confession or direct information taken from a captive by torture. 98% of that intelligence is false, derived from pointed questioning and captives telling the interrogator what they want to hear. If anything, our review of the case of torture vs good intelligence in the French Algiers proves that.
If people have qualms with anything I said or doubt any of my experience, that's fine. They can come to me and ask. I let them decide for themselves. But I don't find any value in lying to anyone - people reserve the right to know facts. In time, it speaks for itself.
EDIT: I also like Medic's observation that although a lot of people picked up as terrorist suspects were aligned to terrorist cells, not a lot of them actually know anything. You can prosecute them for being a part of the problem, but you can't validate torturing a person that doesn't have the information we want to begin with. I'm not saying they are innocent and that prosecuting them is wrong - what I'm saying is that for the longest time, there was this over-zealous expectation that, "Hey, torture magically produces results!" Not just in the US, but on all sides. After 6 years of filtering through everything gathered by torture, barely any of it is more valuable or more substantial than anything we didn't already get through more reliable sources that protected the rights of people.
well now since you seem to have missed my somewhat good hearted chiding in my last reply i guess ill have to be more blunt in this one.McClaud said:
im NOT a CIA analist, its was sarcasim pure and simple ment only to offset YOUR rather foolish clame to be in the intell business yourself. people who work in intell agencys dont troll games forums, and they for damn sure dont POST too games forums about maters of the business. that blunt enough for you? making a clame to anything on the internet is like fucking for virginity. there is no point when you can truly make up any old shit you want, it cant be proven so why bother? anyone who has been ON the net for more than a week at most knows this basic rule so frankly im amazed that you would even try too break it.
id expect more common sence from a military intell person, and this observation ALONE tells me your clames are simple made up bullshit. people that are IN the intell business dont post to games forums and they damn sure dont show up on games forums and ANNOUNCE that they are masters of military intell and expect all and sundry to simply take them at their word for this somewhat importiant clame.
i didnt really want to be rude, but you forced my hand. you sir are quite simply full of shit in your clame to BE military intell, and are just as wrong in your opinions on the overall topic when you say 'torture doesnt work'. if nothing else the entire Bush administation, the CIA (and any other intell organ involved) and the top level military brass dont agree with you , if they DID ...
we wouldnt have tortured.
i didnt say we use it all the time.
ive said, several times now, that the clame that TORTURE DOESNT WORK !!111!!!. is wrong.
ill type this slow for you and any who missed it the first 65 times i said it
if ... it .... didnt .... work .... we .... wouldnt .... have ..... done ...... it.
funny though you make a great point about how intell work isnt like spy movies. this point you make if anything renforces my statment. intell work IS a slow boring process of elimination. but it has to START someplace, and that is the value of torture, all the information gained gives the intell agencys a place to START looking, if only to prove everything said by the victim as wrong.
example? torture victim says Akmad the camil humper is allied with nebular the giant toe, and together run the movment for the free ejaculation of palistine. CIA dude checks this out having never heard of either of these men before OR their movment and discover an otherwise unknown front for Hamas. its a minor group that is no real threat, but once having made the connections they are watched, later on their contact person with Hamas is uncovered and followed and HE leads to bigger fish, more connections, more of the network is filled in, based are found, weapons routs and cachets are uncovered, plans are known in advance, MORE links to the entire global network of terrorists are uncoverd, and finaly at the end of this long long long chain of intell work its found out that ISRAELS sub-deputy of interor defence is really an agent of Chaos seting the world up for the easy takeover of Korn and all his minions from the warp.
i go to extreal lengths in my example but its needed, the point is that intell work isnt a straight line path. information of ANY kind is valuable even if its a lie because it will lead to ruling that information out AS a lie if nothing else. the very word intelligence is at the heart of what im saying. its about KNOWING things. all kinds of things, and you cant ever tell untill after the fact if what you know is importiant or not, or as rumsfeld said, "we dont know enough to know, what we dont know".
he may sound like a foolish old man to those who have never put a moments thought into this topic, but if YOU were truly a member of an intell agency (or even just someone with some common sence) you can certianly see just how right he was and what the POINT to torture really is. and why it DOES work.
its wrong, from a moral standpoint, and its against all we hold dear in the States, and i dont think the ends justify the means even if torture would give us information that would stop a nuclear attack on US soil its STILL not worth doing it for moral reasons alone. but it DOES work.
Wyatt, you are flat-out wrong. I've spoken with a Canadian intelligence officer and exchanged notes with two Americans with experience in intelligence, plus read books by at least one other. (You may be familiar with David Drake, who spent some time in scenic Vietnam doing interrogations for the US Army in the armored cavalry.) They all agree that torture is a waste of time because of all the false data that you get from it; they get more useful data in the same time by following the rules (in the US: FM 34-52 [http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/policy/army/fm/fm34-52/]).
Your faith in the wisdom of your politicians is touching but sorely unfounded.
-- Steve
Your faith in the wisdom of your politicians is touching but sorely unfounded.
-- Steve
Well...I actually think that all people deserve the righst we Americans have, and it is rather hypocritical to be forcing our ways on others then when it is not convieniant for our government to say "nope, you are not one of us so our rules dont apply"
Also an innocent life is an innocent life, American, Iranian, whatever. Innocent people are being tortured, and if we atleast were fair with how we dealt with this where the innocent can actually be fine as long as they are innocent then fine. I am not 100% against torture really, I'd be lying if I said Ive never used it to get what I want (not with violence, but childish type things that kids have done)
Closing it was a good thing in my eyes.
Also an innocent life is an innocent life, American, Iranian, whatever. Innocent people are being tortured, and if we atleast were fair with how we dealt with this where the innocent can actually be fine as long as they are innocent then fine. I am not 100% against torture really, I'd be lying if I said Ive never used it to get what I want (not with violence, but childish type things that kids have done)
Closing it was a good thing in my eyes.
Like what a lot of people have said we don't really get good ammounts of info from torture. If I was being shocked to almost death I'd lie my ass off just for it to stop. There's a lot of inncoent ppl in Gitmo but a lot of guilty as well. Everyone deserves a fair trial and the guilty ones will be given the punishments they deserve. Its odd to think about. I don't have compassion for a terrorist being tortured I couldn't care less they've used inncoent kids as walking bombs they deserve it. But thinking that a taxi driver who was just in the wrong place at the wrong time getting the same treatment just disgusts me. So yeah have gitmo ready to be used at any time but close it for now. the US is just taking heat for it anyway.
Well, that was more like bipolar rhetoric. One side says, leave them alone and let The gods of nature destroy them; the other side says, what the f*ck?! You don't ask insects to get away from your shoe... you stomp the sh*t out of them! I know it sounds twisted and racist, but combat in the service will do that to you. Just know this: there's a reason why "the west" controls the world's finest economies, cultures, armies, education systems(at least some), technologies, etc.. and why they starve and drown to death every time dry hot air or a few bullets from some 'rebel' comes their way. They still have to climb up the pyramid we're on top, and though I agree that we shouldn't be an obstacle, it doesn't mean we shouldn't guard our place at the top, unless you want stumble all the way to the bottom and start up again, like so many have.Anton P. Nym said:
Btw, the avatar was just random, I though it was appropriate at the time and I was hammered and high! It could be a drunken Irishman blowing a condom balloon for all I care!