Poll: Obama Shutting Down Guantanamo Bay. Good or Bad?
- Thread starter Fingolfin High-King of the Noldor
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nice resume. too bad its the net otherwise i might be impressed.Anton P. Nym said:
and once again ill point out that just because the military might not find tacticle intell from torture victime valuable that doesnt mean its "TOTALY USELESS!!11!!1"
damn some of you people are really thick. seriously ........
as for my faith in politicians go's. well now all i can say is they are runing the government and WE are arguing on the net, whos got more brains us or them?
Intel from a torture victim is useless. It's too unreliable for tactical or strategic intel, and it's inadmissible in court. The military can't use it, the CIA/FBI/HS get steered wrong when they use it, and you can't even use it to try the guilty ones afterward in open court.Wyatt said:
And we're talking about the politicians who swore to Congress that Saddam was behind 9/11, and to the UN Security Council that he had nukes and nerve gas. We're talking about the politicians who couldn't organise an evacuation program or relief effort for New Orleans, and who thought the Dow would be 36,000 next year. Y'know, the guys who thought the "Mission Accomplished" banner was a good idea.
Sorry that I can't bring forward the people I spoke with; I'll ask a couple of them if it's okay to quote what they wrote or link to their blog entries. I hope you read through that Field Manual I linked, so that you can see that "not torturing" doesn't mean "massage and room service" treatment, but still leads to garnering good intelligence without degrading both prisoner and interrogator... and that the world is a lot more complex than 24 can portray. This is a world in which Abu Ghraib ended up running the same way under Bush as it did under Saddam... if that's not a warning sign, I don't know what is.
-- Steve
Well, the world's finest special forces, the SAS, beleive that torture does not work. Having read three memiors by former SAS men, I would say that one thing they all agreed on was the ineffectiveness of torture. Because people assume that a) They will be killed if they confess and b) Once you break them, they will admit to anything.
Tell me Wyatt, what is the utility of torturing someone if you cannot get useful information?
Tell me Wyatt, what is the utility of torturing someone if you cannot get useful information?
Closing down Guantanamo is not enough. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are over, and the people imprisoned are the enemy combatants. After wars are finished, enemy combatants are supposed to be returned to their countries of origin. This is international law.
But of course the US rules the world, and gets to flout international law. Obama is already a war criminal.
But of course the US rules the world, and gets to flout international law. Obama is already a war criminal.
I'm glad that five people came around with common sense and replied to Wyatt while I was gone. Thanks, dudes.
Man, again, I'm barely on here, and I don't work for military Intel anymore, so there's no reason why I wouldn't talk about it. Ex-Intelligence people write books all the damn time. It's not rocket science and it's not privileged information.
Also refuting that they used it is not proof that it works or is even effective. For years, quite profusely, the French tried to use it to catch militants in the Algiers. 98% of their torture intel never produced a result, and actually led authorities on wild goose chases. The 2% that was good wasn't verified until after several years. Yet they still used it - more of a terror tactic than an actual Intel gathering one.
Man, again, I'm barely on here, and I don't work for military Intel anymore, so there's no reason why I wouldn't talk about it. Ex-Intelligence people write books all the damn time. It's not rocket science and it's not privileged information.
Also refuting that they used it is not proof that it works or is even effective. For years, quite profusely, the French tried to use it to catch militants in the Algiers. 98% of their torture intel never produced a result, and actually led authorities on wild goose chases. The 2% that was good wasn't verified until after several years. Yet they still used it - more of a terror tactic than an actual Intel gathering one.
true, but you have to admit that making economic policy is alot more complex than beating someone untill he tells you everything he knows. i know 'torture' works becuse IVE done it. not with chains and wips but simple mental torture for certian.Alex_P said:
again your missing my point. the information itself is what we are after, NOT wether or not it can be used in court. for the second time your confusing torture that WE do with the middle ages (and current in some religions) practice of torture to get a 'confession' of some crime or another.Anton P. Nym said:
with billions of possable leads in this war we are fighting, information gathered from torture can at a rock bottom minimum rule OUT some of them leaving our assets free to chase down the other 900,000,000 leads. even if information for torture is nothing more than a gross disguarding of options or theorys in place it has SOME value.
the point to OUR torture isnt to get a conviction in court its to stop a fucking future attack by allowing us to establish names dates and connections we wouldnt otherwise know about. and yes even if all that information is WRONG its STILL valuable becuse it cuts out all the WRONG paths we could be wasting just as MUCH time following without the torture.
the thing about information of any kind, and if you ask your 'intell buddys' this im sure they will tell you so, is that you cant KNOW that something has no value untill you KNOW it.
all it takes is ONE link, ONE piece of information that was RIGHT, one slip of a toung to give us a clue that will allow us to win this war, or stop an attack, or to be able to kill a high level enemy and its WORTH it.
and untill you or anyone else here talking can show me evidence that all the information that we have gotten from torture was usless and we didnt get any value out of ANY of it than your pissing in the wind when you say "TORTURE DOESNT WERK"
torture works just as well as simply paying a guy in some back ally in Ciaro does, you dont know the information THAT guy gives you is reliable either, and you still need to track down everything he says and confirm it or refute it. torture is just another way of getting information from people, not any more or any less reliable because people by their very nature lie, and motives are ALLWAYS suspect. there IS no source of reliable intell anyplace, ALL intell gained from ANY of our agencys needs to be checked out and validated. even intell from wire taps and the like. after all who the fuck can really tell if information gained from a phone call was true or the guys being taped knew they were being taped and just made up a whole conversation for our benifit. all lies of course and all needing to be checked out before we can actualy USE it.
you can keep repeating the same tire old statment that "ToRtUrE duzent WeRk" all you like but its obvious that it can and in all probibility does. no source of intell gathering is reliable, and all sources of information need to be verified before its of any use wether we give them tea and pancakes for break fast or a boot to the skull.
and let me tell you this, when your talking about people with religious convictions and are waging a 'holy war' and doing the will as they see it of God allmighty than nice talk and fine cloths and a good view of the ocean wont make them help you. i have faith in God allmighty and im here to tell you that no ammount of sweat talking or even cash would make me help Bin Ladin, if HE wanted information out of me his ONLY hope would be to torture me for it. id expect most Americans would feel the same, and if you arent from America than pick your nations blood enemys if any and just apply them instead. would you tell the guy that wants to kill your wife secreat information just because he was polite to you? would you tell the guy that God told you is your blood enemy the details of your church group/rebel cell just because he made you a nice steak dinner?
its too bad really, your argument sure sounds nice on the face of it, too bad the real world isnt anice sweat place where we can all just join hands and sing and all our differences will melt away and we can all just get along.
its a hard world and the only real question here isnt should we torture because it does/doesnt work, the REAL question here is do we add to the hate by becoming those we are fighting against? do we continue the cycle of death and revenge? or do we simply take the lumps and push on and INSIST that the world can change, WILL change, as long as we hold fast to the ideals we promote. as long as WE serve as an example and a beacon to what COULD be and not fall back into the pit of howling barbarism that our enemys are bent on dragging us back into.
in this war for hearts and minds, WE win by simply standing fast to our idea that all men diserve respect and that we are all created equil. we lose by showing all men that our ideals stop at our front door and that every place else in the world we will act in as barbaric a way as the scum we are fighting do.
no good peoples all, torture works. but that isnt the real question we should be talking about now is it? torture works just as the same way that dousing a puppy in gas and setting him on fire will certianly stop him from shitting on your law. we have biger fish to fry and no matter WHAT information we get from torture it wont EVER offset what we lose by doing it. sure we might have a lawn free from puppy shit, but our neighbors will be walking out toilet paper in hand and shitting their instead of the puppy next just to 'teach us a lession'.
we might win a battle or two by torture but we will certianly lose the war because of it.
Despite whether it is right or wrong, legally speaking, they arent protected by the constitution. It may not be right, its just the way it is, and no matter how much we bicker back and forth about it, it wont suddenly protect people that aren't american citizens.
Sure, it works some times, but it depends on how much you want to disregard all the innocents that you torture as well. At some point you become as bad as your enemy, and for the unlucky guys that just happened to live in the same country like those "terrorists" you are certainly worse.Wyatt said:
It doesn't have to. They have rights to a trial via military authority. Usually set about by conditions imposed by the international community. In this case, as we treat them as captured enemies of the state, the ones who AREN'T citizens of the United States are considered militants.Oisnafas said:
They get treated about the same as prisoners of war.
And someone get Wyatt a dictionary. His spelling and horrible grammar give me a headache when trying to read his posts.
Hey Wyatt, you don't an answer to my point, do you? Do you? No, you don't, because I am right, and you, sir, are wrong.
As i've said earlier: One mans terrorist, is another mans freedom fighter..
Im glad places like that are closed down.. Torture is not the way of peace, it will only aggrevate more violence..
Im glad places like that are closed down.. Torture is not the way of peace, it will only aggrevate more violence..
some of the stuff we've been doing there is classified as war crimes, and fyi: alot of innocent people get sent there without a trial
lapan said:
bingo, and we have a winner.
the problem isnt taht it doesnt work, and there is NO question that we shouldnt do it. the problem in this thread as with so much of life is that bad arguments like 'it doesnt work' get in the way of REAL valid reasons too not do it. it makes those of us that understand the issue to be brushed off and lumped in with the obvious idiots that are just stuck in stupid and can only repeat over and over 'torture iz teh badz' like rain-man trying to figure out whos on first.
there are real and valid arguments to be made about why the United States of American shouldnt be torturing anyone. 'it doeznt werk' isnt one of them and in fact it does more harm than good becuse it ends up being an argument just like this one. 3 pages or so now of two 'sides' who agree that torture is bad but spending page after page of text arguing about WHY its bad. i can just see all the neo-cons laughing at us 'hippy liberals' now. we cant even agree between ourselves WHY its bad how can we ever make a valid argument against someone who is PRO torture?
i think those that say it dosnt work are morons and im on their side. just immagin the beating i could hand out if i was PRO torture. *snickers*
And someone get Wyatt a dictionary. His spelling and horrible grammar give me a headache when trying to read his posts
ahh the old when my argument falls flat i can allways comment on spelling reply huh? *shrug* im used to it now. if you want to argue spelling and grammar than ill just point out that a thread about torture isnt the place. ill pick up a dictionary and the first word i will look up just for YOU is 'Relevance' and the next couple will be 'too' and 'the' and 'point'.
Hey Wyatt, you don't an answer to my point, do you? Do you? No, you don't, because I am right, and you, sir, are wrong.
*pokes at keybord* damn my back button doesnt seem to be working today. tell me again what your point was? im not totaly certian but im ALMOST certian that ive replyed to everything aimed at me (and then some) in this thread, if you have a point i missed go back and re-read my posts im sure i answered you someplace. im pretty good at this you know
I'm serious and it is relevant because it's almost impossible for me to finish reading one of your posts when I want to reply. I didn't reply to your last comment because it was so bad, I quit only about a third of the way through and stopped reading. I don't know how you expect anyone to take you seriously or read everything you have to say when it's really hard to read what you've written. Period.Wyatt said:
How hard is it to punctuate and spell correctly, and use proper grammar? As hard as you are trying to prove yourself the absolute authority on the subject of torture, you'd think you'd spend a little of that energy in actually typing something that can be read and taken seriously.
You've gotten so lazy you won't even properly attribute the quotes to the people you're responding to.
sorry about the quote thing but that one isnt really my fault, i got punished a while back for over using the quote feature so im a bit leary of doing it more than once per post now.
the spelling shit, i dont much give a fuck what you have to say about it, if you cant read and understand my point id RATHER you just skiped it or ignored it as chances are you wont have anything i find of value to say about it anyhow.
we are talking about real world issue that have meaning for millions of people, if your more worried about proper letter placment or the use of a comma in the wrong spot than the topic under concideration than i dont care what you have to say in reply to me. an issue like this cant be condenced into pithy 1 paragraph replys, and im not writing an article for time magazine so presentation takes a solid back seat to information as far as im concirned. you want to exchange thoughts, ideas, and opinions than by all means post away i read every reply from anyone on a topic i take an interest in no matter how 'hard going' it may be. if however you want to argue about the packaging of an idea and not the merits of the idea itself than id rather you just went away and leave the topic too those that can argue the point and not be petty about it.
and one final thing, ive not tryed to establish myself as an authority on torture, outside of my sister when we were kids, and my girl friend on occasion now, and one or two bad B movies ive actualy NO experiance with torture. that would seem too me better aimed at you and one other person in this thread that have clamed 'contacts' in the intell business. im sorry if my calling bullshit on you in reguards to that hurt your fealings but do you really think this is the right way to go about getting your revenge? i mean wouldnt it be more mature too just take the lumps, admit your guilty of doing something that everyone here has prolly done before (that is to clame real world experience that we dont actualy have) smirk a bit and maybe even have enough class to give us a minor blush, and then just hop back into the fray rather than to jump on the spelling nazi bandwaggon?
the spelling shit, i dont much give a fuck what you have to say about it, if you cant read and understand my point id RATHER you just skiped it or ignored it as chances are you wont have anything i find of value to say about it anyhow.
we are talking about real world issue that have meaning for millions of people, if your more worried about proper letter placment or the use of a comma in the wrong spot than the topic under concideration than i dont care what you have to say in reply to me. an issue like this cant be condenced into pithy 1 paragraph replys, and im not writing an article for time magazine so presentation takes a solid back seat to information as far as im concirned. you want to exchange thoughts, ideas, and opinions than by all means post away i read every reply from anyone on a topic i take an interest in no matter how 'hard going' it may be. if however you want to argue about the packaging of an idea and not the merits of the idea itself than id rather you just went away and leave the topic too those that can argue the point and not be petty about it.
and one final thing, ive not tryed to establish myself as an authority on torture, outside of my sister when we were kids, and my girl friend on occasion now, and one or two bad B movies ive actualy NO experiance with torture. that would seem too me better aimed at you and one other person in this thread that have clamed 'contacts' in the intell business. im sorry if my calling bullshit on you in reguards to that hurt your fealings but do you really think this is the right way to go about getting your revenge? i mean wouldnt it be more mature too just take the lumps, admit your guilty of doing something that everyone here has prolly done before (that is to clame real world experience that we dont actualy have) smirk a bit and maybe even have enough class to give us a minor blush, and then just hop back into the fray rather than to jump on the spelling nazi bandwaggon?