Poll: Obesity: fat people or true illness?

[Ignignoct]

Einstein was a genius, and had sloppy hair. Therefore, you should have sloppy hair too.

Very generic example of an appeal to authority.

So and so did this, and was smart/had power, so you do it too.

I'm gonna say the problem with both sides is that (a) Aristotle wasn't a good philosopher, and (b) even if he was, quoting him and leaving it at that isn't sufficient. No matter how well-respected someone is as a thinker, he is not the end all and be all of a discussion. Cheeze's point was that there's no proof that Aristotle was right about that, so we shouldn't take it at face value. It's claiming that Aristotle was correct because he's Aristotle, but in terms of classical (syllogistic) logic, it's fallacious.

To be blunt, that's not a good enough reason.
Your saying his idea isn't good to go on because he's Aristotle. Having studied the Nichomocean Ethics, I know his reasoning for it, which in my eyes makes sense. Therefore you have to explain why his reasoning is wrong, otherwise your just saying I shouldn't listen to him because he is Aristotle.
So in short, explain how you can have a fulfilled life without your health, as that is the point.
Plus Cheeze was asking for the "moral" point, so where better to go then philosphy?

Oh goodness.

Thank you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

[Seldon2639]

Einstein was a genius, and had sloppy hair. Therefore, you should have sloppy hair too.

Very generic example of an appeal to authority.

So and so did this, and was smart/had power, so you do it too.

I'm gonna say the problem with both sides is that (a) Aristotle wasn't a good philosopher, and (b) even if he was, quoting him and leaving it at that isn't sufficient. No matter how well-respected someone is as a thinker, he is not the end all and be all of a discussion. Cheeze's point was that there's no proof that Aristotle was right about that, so we shouldn't take it at face value. It's claiming that Aristotle was correct because he's Aristotle, but in terms of classical (syllogistic) logic, it's fallacious.

To be blunt, that's not a good enough reason.
Your saying his idea isn't good to go on because he's Aristotle. Having studied the Nichomocean Ethics, I know his reasoning for it, which in my eyes makes sense. Therefore you have to explain why his reasoning is wrong, otherwise your just saying I shouldn't listen to him because he is Aristotle.
So in short, explain how you can have a fulfilled life without your health, as that is the point.
Plus Cheeze was asking for the "moral" point, so where better to go then philosphy?

Wait, when did this start sounding like arguments about the existence of God? Actually, what we're saying is that while it may make sense to you, that doesn't make it logically true. Just because someone cool said it doesn't mean it's right.

You're making a positive statement (that Aristotle is correct). The burden of proof is on you to prove his correctness, not on me to disprove his correctness. So, we've reached an impasse where you want me to prove he's wrong, and I want you to prove he's right. But, if I must:

Plato (a far more influential thinker than Aristotle) wrote that "the unexamined life is not worth living". If this is true, the converse must also be true: "the examined life is worth living". If a life is worth living, it must be fulfilled (otherwise would be not worth living, which both Aristotle and Plato extolled). Thus, if a fat person lives an examined life, he has lived a life worth living, thus has lived a fulfilled life. Now we've got Plato vs. Aristotle. The grudge match of the last couple of millennia.

 

[leugim789]

pick up the latest issue of popular science incredible article about obesity: whos to blame? in there, could really enlighten people on the subject.

 

[SsilverR]

i just thought maybe the human race wasn't so weak as to make up over the top medical excuses for all their flaws ..

Obesity is not a flaw. A lack of compassion for your fellow human being is a flaw.

it is .. it's not healthy and you said it yourself .. so it's a flaw ... and how is wanting well for your fellow human a flaw .. you may see it as "harsh" but the truth is reality is harsh .. sugar coating everything for everyone will just make them weak! .. no one can help them but themselves .. but i REFUSE to tell them it's something like a disease so they'll just feel contempt with that .. "oh it's a disease .. nothing i can do about it" ... screw that ... it IS a flaw and it's no ones fault but the persons ... if they're happy living that way then fair enough .. but again .. it can be fixed with training and exercise .. fuck diet .. as long as you burn everything off in training you'll be fine

 

[phar]

I think it is an illness to some extent. Im considered obese for my height although I dont look it since my bodys pretty well built. I get constant cravings for food and think about it quite often. I also suffer from the problem of overeating. Takes my brain a while to relise when im a bit too full.

Seriously though.. high metabolism people dont really understand what its like to look at food and put on weight. Whats even worse is if a chubby or fat guy goes out and tries to do some fitness work or what ever they get stared at or pointed at and it can be really offputting. I used to be a bit chubby as a kid and used to do a heap of swimming. Rather depressing all the little comments people give you about having a bit of a gut.

But on the otherhand its quite mental.. a lot of people dont realise how big they actually are.

 

[Seldon2639]

Plato (a far more influential thinker than Aristotle) wrote that "the unexamined life is not worth living". If this is true, the converse must also be true: "the examined life is worth living". If a life is worth living, it must be fulfilled (otherwise would be not worth living, which both Aristotle and Plato extolled). Thus, if a fat person lives an examined life, he has lived a life worth living, thus has lived a fulfilled life. Now we've got Plato vs. Aristotle. The grudge match of the last couple of millennia.

The examined life I think can be concluded as a search for personal wisdom. I doubt that any person would deem it wise to become or remain obese due to the health implications, and that was my essential point.
Apart from the quest of personal pleasure on a very basic level, obesity isn't considered wise, and usually the opposite, and certainly some would consider it as a prevention to fulfillment.
As obesity doesn't harm anyone (of course Utilitarianism could argue differently), the moral implications of it come down to a personal level e.g. happiness & fulfillment.

It's possible that "examination" and "doing the smart thing" are considered to be analogous, but then we're parsing. The only way your argument works is to have a very particular meaning for the word "examined", which most people would not conclude was Plato's intent. Plato's intent (if we're focused on the appeal to those philosophers) was that one must always question ones conclusions, and analyze oneself. That quotation does not speak for whether such a thing is wise (actually, Plato admits that being introspective can be unwise at times), thus your point is moot.

As before, it's an impasse.

 

[shadowcaptain]

i hate to admit that i am rather chubb myself - im fairly active, and eat healthier than anybody i know - yet loosing weight is extremely difficult for me

im not fat because i like food, i infact do not find eating pleasureable and dont "stuff my face" every minute of the day but eat a good regular balanced diet (healthy cereal in the morning, sandwiches, yoghurt, fruit for lunch and a standard meal in the evening, meat/potatoes/rice/veg etc etc

i walk for about an hour and a half each day and do a little bit of weights and maybe a light run in the evening - i do a physical job in a warehouse 3 days a week and each sunday i play airsoft running around none stop all day

yet despite this i am 5'10" and weigh - technically this puts me at obese according to BMI indexes - yet im not that fat... i have a 37" waist (approx) and tend to look chubby rather than fat

its all rather perplexing

 

[shadowcaptain]

fuck diet .. as long as you burn everything off in training you'll be fine

That might turn out not to be true:

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/09/19/longevity.cancer.and.diet.connected.new.research.worms.could.apply.humans[/quote]

so if i dont eat i wont get age or get cancer

oh wait...

 

[SsilverR]

i just thought maybe the human race wasn't so weak as to make up over the top medical excuses for all their flaws ..

Obesity is not a flaw. A lack of compassion for your fellow human being is a flaw.

it is .. it's not healthy and you said it yourself .. so it's a flaw ... and how is wanting well for your fellow human a flaw

Because you don't just want well for your fellow human. You also want the opportunity to act badly in doing so.


In fact, I highly doubt you'd even be interested in your fellow human when it comes to fat if you couldn't use it as an excuse to indulge your desire to do the ill of verbal abuse to your fellow human.

fuck diet .. as long as you burn everything off in training you'll be fine

That might turn out not to be true:

http://esciencenews.com/articles/2008/09/19/longevity.cancer.and.diet.connected.new.research.worms.could.apply.humans

for one screw that article .. i've been eating stuff like mcdonalds for breakfats 5 snickers bars for dinner .. i have the most imbalanced diet you'll ever hear of and i'm still healthy ... i run 10 miles a day and i have no problems in the ring ... doctors advice is like the tides .. one day they tell you somethings good for you another day it's bad .. screw them eat how you want .. just make sure you work off what you eat

just because you verbally abuse something doesn't mean you hate it .. dude you sound like you're getting your information off some naruto episode .. and no .. first off you don't know shit about me .. you just assume i enjoy calling someone flawed because they're fat ... listen dude not everyone thinks like you're wiki pages on psychology say they do ... you can have a masters in psychology, philosophy and how the human mind works and still know nothing about it .. people aren't as predictable and simple as you think they are

 

[Alexe123]

Ham. The true enemy.

 

[Ignignoct]

Ham. The true enemy.

So the Jews were on to something, eh?...

I haven't eaten bacon in decades just to be sure.