Poll: Obesity: fat people or true illness?

[E-mantheseeker]

I think if a person honestly tries through exercise and eating right, (not dieting/starving) and there are absolutely no results, then I guess it would be a disease in that case. If a person doesn't put in any effort to lose weight, then it's not known for sure if they have a disease, but they can definitely be marked as lazy.

 

[Ignignoct]

The existence of psychologically-based eating disorders overturns the 'objectively not a flaw' argument, in a character/personality debate.

Only if the "existence of psychologically-based eating disorders" was not only sufficient, but also necessary to achieve that kind of body.

More than one way to fatten a calf.

I understand that obesity-measuring methods are flawed and there is no golden standard that all humans should be, but common-sense applies.

It's not about some 'golden standard' in the sense you're using it. It's about the moral standard, the standard of 'what is right and good for humans' which is not necessarily what is *medically* right and good for humans.

The first question to ask is: what do you mean by 'should be'? From a moral or health point of view? The second is: is it immoral to be unhealthy by choice, so that the health point of view *is* the same to some degree as the moral point of view?

Your problem with my use of the word 'flaw' is a result of you not being clear in your understanding of when you're talking in a *medical* sense, and in a *moral* sense, and when you're connecting the two.

Wow, you're giving me sardonic flashbacks of BioShock when confronted with the plastic surgeon who preached that beauty, with new technology allowing it, was a moral imperative, and that it should be illegal to remain ugly =p.

But to answer the "should be", I'm talking about taking genetic factors into consideration, example:

A good friend of mine is the same height but weighs much more than I, and is generally thicker in every sense (German VS my Irish). His skull and skeletal frame is such that he'd look ridiculous if he were as skinny as I. He is generally proportionate, with a bit of excess around the belly and slight manboobs due to his sedentary lifestyle. He is depressed by this, even with my reassurances of his self-worth due to his good character.

Do I think he is immoral for his excess weight? No. Do I wish for his own physical and emotional sake he would eat less fast food, and find a physically active hobby? Obviously, and I've told him this indirectly (low-quality fillers and fats being a scam, MSG, High-fructose Corn Syrup being the White Man's poison, etc).

But I feel like it's meaningless to continue this morality debate, in that it is entirely subjective, yet I'm comfortable in my understanding of it, as I'm sure you feel the same for yourself.

It's like whether or not owning a gas-guzzler VS an econo-sedan is moral.

Complete opinion, and partially socially engineered.

 

[Ignignoct]

Wow, you're giving me sardonic flashbacks of BioShock when confronted with the plastic surgeon who preached that beauty, with new technology allowing it, was a moral imperative, and that it should be illegal to remain ugly =p.

Well damn! I'm doing my job way better than I thought then :-D

But to answer the "should be", I'm talking about taking genetic factors into consideration,

...

Do I think he is immoral for his excess weight? No.

Then nothing I said applies to what you're talking about ;-D

But I feel like it's meaningless to continue this morality debate, in that it is entirely subjective,

If morality is subjective, it's not morality.

Of course, people *differ* on what the right morality is, but that doesn't make it any more subjective than the existence of Venus being subjective just because some people called it the Morning Star and others called it the Evening Star.

But don't confuse cultural relativity with moral relativity.

Sooner or later this jello will stick to the wall.

Maybe I need a faster shooting nail-gun.

 

[Fronken]

Well, it isn't so cut and dry. Some people are lazy and become fat, some people are basically fat for life due to slower than normal metabolisms, other people don't know when to stop eating. It is never black and white no matter how it may appear.

This, there is no 1 explanation for fat people.

I myself am fat (atleast i consider myself fat at 130-140kg), and if i were to blaim it on anything i'd have to go with my parents for raising me with a bad diet consisting of 90% pasta and sausage, and no, i'm not kidding, thats pretty much all we eat here at home.

But im guessing it has to do with my metabolism seeing as i am the only one over 90kg in my family, and we've all eaten the same stuff.

 

[Ignignoct]

Well, it isn't so cut and dry. Some people are lazy and become fat, some people are basically fat for life due to slower than normal metabolisms, other people don't know when to stop eating. It is never black and white no matter how it may appear.

This, there is no 1 explanation for fat people.

I myself am fat (atleast i consider myself fat at 130-140kg), and if i were to blaim it on anything i'd have to go with my parents for raising me with a bad diet consisting of 90% pasta and sausage, and no, i'm not kidding, thats pretty much all we eat here at home.

But im guessing it has to do with my metabolism seeing as i am the only one over 90kg in my family, and we've all eaten the same stuff.

Have you tried the crystal meth diet yet?

You can eat anything you want, and you'll still lose weight because your body is running for days at a time before resting =D.

But srsly, try some fat burners; they usually contain euphoric "happy drugs" to accompany the extra pep. Just watch your heart, as it will be pumping harder. Consult a physician, of course, before doing anything harder than hydroxycut/caffeine.

Or... Y'know... not =D.

 

[Ignignoct]

[
Please do not ruin the good name of any philosopher by making her or him the subject of an Appeal to Authority.

Explain yourself instead of ignoring my post. It's not an appeal to authority as I showed above, unless you really are unbelievably trying to say that obesity is not an unhealthy state.

Where did you show it's not an Appeal to Authority?

Follow the path of logic.
Show how it is an Appeal to Authority, you never did.

Einstein was a genius, and had sloppy hair. Therefore, you should have sloppy hair too.

Very generic example of an appeal to authority.

So and so did this, and was smart/had power, so you do it too.

 

[Seldon2639]

[
Please do not ruin the good name of any philosopher by making her or him the subject of an Appeal to Authority.

Explain yourself instead of ignoring my post. It's not an appeal to authority as I showed above, unless you really are unbelievably trying to say that obesity is not an unhealthy state.

Where did you show it's not an Appeal to Authority?

Follow the path of logic.
Show how it is an Appeal to Authority, you never did.

I'm gonna say the problem with both sides is that (a) Aristotle wasn't a good philosopher, and (b) even if he was, quoting him and leaving it at that isn't sufficient. No matter how well-respected someone is as a thinker, he is not the end all and be all of a discussion. Cheeze's point was that there's no proof that Aristotle was right about that, so we shouldn't take it at face value. It's claiming that Aristotle was correct because he's Aristotle, but in terms of classical (syllogistic) logic, it's fallacious.

 

[Ignignoct]

Im Fat.......Did I win?
I won the Raffle right?
What is my prize?

*Hands you a 20lb bag Soy Beans and instructional cookbook: 1,001 Soy recipes to ROCK YOUR WORLD!*

I'm sorry.

It's the best we could do with the $50 grant given to us to aid the fat in order to catch a tax break.