Poll: Obesity: fat people or true illness?

[jboking]

When the issue is about whether medicine should worry about 'being cold' in picking a definition of disease, bringing up the issue of what I consider to be the source of morality and attacking it?

That's a strawman. And a bit of a red herring. And even some ad hominem.

Are you trying to set the land speed record for logical fallacies?

For ****** sake, stop digressing.
You have not stated what a source of morality should be.
You have not stated your source of morality on being obese.
You have not stated how being obese is not a flaw, after claiming it is, then being reminded that flaw means imperfection, and poor health would not be in the perfect human.
You have not disproved how any of the philosophers views I mentioned are invalid, and therefore, not proven how it was "silly" to quote philosophers on the morality of being obese, when asked about the moral implications of being obese.

All you have done is digress and avoid answering the questions I give.

Due to the fact that you claim he refuses to answer these questions, I will throw out some possible answers. He can take them if he wishes, I'm not certain they will help him, but I saw philosophy and felt like giving this a shot. I am still very much an amateur when it comes to philosophy, so if anyone would like to correct me, please do.

source of morality - Read up on the philosopher Hume, "Morals are not derived from reason. Morals are derived from the moral sentiments: feelings of approval (esteem, praise) and disapproval (blame) felt by spectators who contemplate a character trait or action." This essentially states that morality is nothing more than personal bias (because different people will see different degress of approval and disapproval from an action) with no true reason behind it. Therefore morality should have nothing to do with your argument.

Morality on being obese - If you submit to the above you are simply asking him for his biased opinion, which he has provided numerous times.

Obesity as a flaw - Follow me on this one, not all flaws are diseases, but all diseases are flaws. Following that logic, obesity can be both a disease and a flaw...so can we all just get along?

disproving philosophers - disproving someones personal opinion is impossible, however, I can provide a more widely accepted, opinion. That of Hume.

(my quote regarding Humes philosophy comes from a stanford.edu page. If you care enough to request it, I will post a link)

 

[CAPPINJACK]

There are some people who do have disorders or even treatments that cause weight gain. But I'm going to say the vast majority of overweight people are the way they are because they made themselves that way.

I should know. I used to be 160 lbs in my teens and very early 20's. Fast forward ~15 years: I got ridiculously lazy, loved the red meat, salt, and fast food WAYYYYYYY too much for my own good and now I'm close on (if not over) 300 lbs. And what's worse: my blood pressure is through the roof for someone my age. And to top it off, I'm 5 foot 11 inches - not at all good. Thankfully I gave up smoking about 2 years ago, and I don't drink anywhere near as much as I did in my youth, but I digress... The only reason I'm at ~300 lbs and have the beginnings of a heart condition is because of ME. Not McDonald's, not Wendy's, not some mystery virus, not some genetic disorder (heart disease runs in family, but that's beside the point)... no, it's -my- fault. I'm slowly trying to change this and it's fucking hard. Mostly because I'm such a picky eater and because of that it's been harder than quitting smoking.

One day our bloated corpses will smother the entire planet...

 

[jboking]

You have not given a reason why the discipline of medicine, an empirical science, should choose to define its terms on the basis of whether they help you advance your moral agenda even if if it means reducing their effectiveness to communicate scientific concepts.

Now who is avoiding answering the questions?

I have given you philosphers. They date back to 100 BC. So don't think medicine played a role on their ideals.
Again, your changing the question and not answering it.
Who do you turn to for your moral views? Any philospher or just yourself?

Isn't every man a philosopher?

 

[Blow_Pop]

it is both an illness and a choice. some people have the choice to become fat and obese and some is in there genes. i have friends who it runs in their family and they do everything in their power to not be and still wind up that way(exercise, healthy foods etc) then again i know people who choose not to help themselves.....

 

[jboking]

Due to the fact that you claim he refuses to answer these questions,

Clarification of what he claims: I refuse to answer *Matzy*'s questions--he's a troll.

I will throw out some possible answers. He can take them if he wishes, I'm not certain they will help him, but I saw philosophy and felt like giving this a shot. I am still very much an amateur when it comes to philosophy, so if anyone would like to correct me, please do.

source of morality - Read up on the philosopher Hume, "Morals are not derived from reason. Morals are derived from the moral sentiments: feelings of approval (esteem, praise) and disapproval (blame) felt by spectators who contemplate a character trait or action."

Yes--it was Hume that first raised the issue of the is/ought problem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem

Ayn Rand argued that because a living being *is* alive, and does not exist when it is not alive, that what furthers its life constitutes its *ought*.

Matzy first brought up Aristotle when butting in after I told him to go away,

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/18.92284.1475334

which is interesting in this context because in many ways Rand's rebuttal to Hume is based on Aristotle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics#Goal-directed_ethics

through

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicomachean_Ethics#The_essence_and_function_of_being_human_.28.22The_Function_Argument.22.29

Rand was a big fan of Aristotle.

As to how *I* would answer these questions and engage these philosophers? To borrow a line, 'we can't stop to discuss my philosophy here; this is troll country'

Thank you so much for the information! I learn something new every time I come on these forums thanks to people like you.

Also, I suppose avoiding trolls would be the best idea. I'm leaving then. Thank you once again!

 

[SsilverR]

it's not an illness because it was self induced

If I have sex with someone who has an STD, is it therefore not an illness if I wind up with the STD?

2 different things ... fair enough in both scenarios it's the persons fault ... but obesity is not a virus ... it's the YOU eating all the food and not working off the calories

What does it matter if it's you doing it or a virus from the standpoint of calling it an illness?

If I don't get enough iron in my diet, my anemia is still an illness, isn't it? Even though it has to do with what I'm doing to myself by way of the choices I make in what I eat?

nothing is making you eat those cheeseburgers

Nothing is making people with anemia not eat cheeseburgers.

... fuck fat people they should get a sense of responsibility and start taking care of their bodies

That's...quite a cogent and relevant response.

ok 1 .. not doing something isn't the same as doing something ... no illness makes you pick up a chesse burger and eat it .. but an ilness CAN prevent you from doing so

and yeah ... i've never been one to beat around the bush for long ... STOP FUCKING COMPARING LACK OF SELF CONTROL TO DISEASES!!

Well honestly I still think fat people just like food. There are children who have like a cup of noodles for all of thier meals and we eat loads of crap. See what don't get about you silver is, if you can't control eating then stuff your face with SALADS!!!

never said i can't control eating ... also why would anyone have salad if there's an awesomely tender cheeseburger sitting in front of them

 

[SsilverR]

i have my reasons not to trust doctors ... yeah look around you though .. look at how expensive healthy foods are and how cheap pure lard is ... people taking their car just to drive 2 blocks to a shop ... seriously man there is a reason for it ... it can't be a disease because nothing new is forming in the body .. just fat ... that's like saying every bit of food we ever eat is riddled with diseases

and about docs .. sorry man .. docs and psychologists are red in my book

I'm not saying the current situation is right and yes, it is a shame about how the healthier foods are always the most expensive. It's why people of a lower socio-economic status are always the ones who have the most health problems (them and the elderly).

I'm also sorry you feel that way about doctors and wish that any experiences that might have happened to you to make you feel that way never to have happened.

However, in the interests of debate...

Disease can be defined as any abnormality or failure of the body to function properly and this may require medical treatment
... it is characterised by an EXCESS (my emphasis) of fat in the body, particulary under the skin and is generally recognisable when a person is 20% above their IBW (Ideal Body Weight)

From- Ahmed, N, Dawson, M, Smith, C & Wood, E, 2007. 'Biology of Disease', Taylor & Francis Gorup, New York, USA.

The number of obese adults in the United States is 75% higher than it was 15 years ago. And much of the world is following the same trend, recently leading the World Health Organisation to coin the new word globesity to describe the worldwide situation.
... The causes of obesity are many, and some remain obscure. Some factors that may be involved are the following:
-Disturbances in the leptin signalling pathway
-Lack of exercise
-Differences in the 'fidget factor'
-Differences in extracting energy from food
-Hereditary tendencies
-Development of an excessive number of fat cells as a result from overeating
-The existence of certain endocrine disorders such as hypothyroidism
-An abundance of convenient, highly palatable, energy-dense relatively inexpensive foods
-Emotional disturbances in which overeating replaces other gratifications
-A possible virus link.

From - Sherwood, L, 2007. 'Human Physiology - From Cells to Systems 6th Ed', Thomson Brooks/Cole, USA.

If you still don't believe me that obesity is a diseade EVEN after I've provided you with fully referenced information as to why it is a disease (remember - disease is ANY abnormality in the body and obesity is an excess of fat - abonormality = disease) then I challenge you this;

- Find me a referenced credible source of information ie journal article and/or textbook which backs up your viewpoint. If you cant then you'll lose this debate. Simple.

"A disease is an abnormal condition of an organism that impairs bodily functions. It is also defined as a way of the body harming its self in an abnormal way, associated with specific symptoms and signs"

dictionary .. it's all i could find hahaha ... fat isn't an organism and obeseity is to be expected when eating habits mess up .. the body isn't abnormally damaging itself ... just a ton of arteries blocked up due to what the user is stuffing himself with

and again ... that stuff you posted may be true but like i said i have no trust/love for doctors ^^'

 

[Madaxeman101]

Some people suffer from obesity due to a pituatary gland disorder but some people are fat because they do nothing and eat deep fried lard allday