Poll: Poll: Shall we allow deadly force on a burgular?

[Skeleon]

...and apparently many are too scared to do it now days. I am not scared to protect myself...

Actually, I hereby pose the hypothesis that you and people like you are actually the ones who are scared of everything and anything they encounter, which is why you're far more willing to kill than calmer people (who are pro self-defence but contra unproportional force).

 

[cuddly_tomato]

I think all these people who want a free hand to kill burglars irrespective of whether they pose a threat should go ahead.

Firstly, it decreases the number of burglars. Secondly, the uncivilised, violent-minded citizens who pose a potential threat to society can get locked away for excessive use of force.

It's a double win for everyone not involved.

Actually the people who got robbed will likely be released being that the jury typically does not side with the person who attempted to rob/kill them. I would easily and willingly shoot the fuck out of an individual that might be trying to kill me in my own home, in the dark, at night. You would just let him rape, maim, kill or rob you and your family? This isn't about "uncivilized, violent-minded citizens" it's about fucking protecting yourself and apparently many are too scared to do it now days. I am not scared to protect myself and history has shown that some of the most civilized and caring people are willing to protect the ones they love in a life ending situation.

Note I said "irrespective of whether they pose a threat", which you conveniently ignored, so keen were you to expound on the joys of pumping lead into strangers.

Your average burglar is a burglar, and just there for your family silverware, not to molest your kid and rape your wife. Sure, he attacks you or your family, you fight to defend yourself with as much force as is reasonable. Otherwise, threaten him to buzz off or to stand still whilst you call the police, or any other manner of other things that don't involve instant warfare.

When most people think about civilised values, a philosophy of violence as a last resort is pretty much right up there at the top.

Very well said.

The notion that anyone who breaks the law immediately forefits their right to life is bizarre.

You two obviously have little idea what it is like to be in a life threatening situation such as this, your time to respond is almost non-existent and you think you will have time to ponder such actions?

Do you think you are psychic or something? How the hell do you know that?

Criminals are criminals regardless if a simple robber or a murderer.

Or someone driving too fast. Or someone selling ice cream that is out of date. Fill them with hot lead!

You can't expect to know intent and you have every right to save your own life and remove theirs (in the states thankfully most of us have this right anyways).

If you can't expect to know intent, how can you justify taking a life which might not intend taking yours?

This is a harsh world and a philosophy of violence is the way of all criminals that go so far as to break into your home. I say don't give them the chance to enact their intents, nip it in the bud.

Yes. This is a harsh world. Accept that it is a harsh world, accept that you might get hurt or killed living in it, and don't be such a coward in the face of a trespasser. Kick them out of the house. Threaten them, run them, if they attack you fight back. But don't sit there, trembling, carrying a M9 around with you in case the kid who climbed in through your window might punch you in the face a bit hard.

Simply put, if you plan on living a full life just don't rob my house. Or anyones home in Florida or Texas.

Well said Charles Bronson. If you plan on living a full life then don't go sticking your chin out when a burglar shows up. Hide in your closet, leave facing them for people with the confidence to deal with it.

 

[MelziGurl]

Attacking them before they attack you I can understand but stabbing someone to death without any better reason other than them stealing something that can be replaced...no. What makes anyone a better person than those burglars if you murder them without good cause. And don't tell me stealing your stuff is good cause, it's a bullshit excuse.

For all you know, that guy that just broke in could be there to steal your stuff and kill you.

Would you seriously risk taking that split second to try to find out, at a risk to your own life?

Well chances are, I hear someone breaking in I'm not going to go looking for the bastard. I don't own a gun and don't plan to besides I'm pretty confident that noones going to break into my home while I am home. Someone tried to when my brother was 13 and home alone but ran scared when he realised that someone was home. We also lock up our home and have our windows barracaded with security screens/bars so any smart burgular isn't going to burgle my home at risk of being caught just simply trying to get in. If you have proper security in your home then you shouldn't have need of that gun, but it's my opinin that in America citizens rely too much on their guns.

 

[jpoon]

Well said Charles Bronson. If you plan on living a full life then don't go sticking your chin out when a burglar shows up. Hide in your closet, leave facing them for people with the confidence to deal with it.

You make it sound as if I'm the one who is scared of the situation, hahaha! I definitely won't be that dip shit hiding in the closet, I am ready to take the situation head on and what happens happens. I guess we will have to agree to disagree because there is no way in heaven or hell that this kind of post is going to change anyones mind. I have the right to use deadly force in my home (thankfully) and I will use it if the the situation occurs. Pretty much that is that. Think of it what you will, I hardly give a flying fuck. Just hope that you aren't the ones attempting to "take the lamps in my livingroom" because you'll likely be leaving with shiny new holes.

 

[zombflux]

Well, if someone is breaking into my house, I'll probably kill them.

But I don't want to be killed if I break into your house. Someone should see to it that laws be made to suit this.

 

[jpoon]

In the U.S., the mentality is that it's better to kill the burglar. This prevents them from suing you for trying to kill them. Personally, the moment you decided to break into my house (a crime) with intent to commit more criminal activities, you've also decided to forfeit the idea that your life is valuable.

Which is dumb--their relatives can still sue you for killing that person on behalf of that person's estate. And if they're dead, they are far more sympathetic a plaintiff than if you can put them on the stand as a witness in their civil suit against you and make them explain themselves.

This isn't so true IF they die in your house. The intent is rather obvious. Though I would like to see some statistics on this in the states. What the incident is for convictions on homeowners regarding self-protection in their homes because this I don't have any firm numbers.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Well said Charles Bronson. If you plan on living a full life then don't go sticking your chin out when a burglar shows up. Hide in your closet, leave facing them for people with the confidence to deal with it.

You make it sound as if I'm the one who is scared of the situation, hahaha!

Nope. It is you who is making it sound as if you are the one who is scared of the situation. Take a look for yourself....

The whole "but he might kill me" mindset is just paranoid bullshit.

...and apparently many are too scared to do it now days. I am not scared to protect myself...

Actually, I hereby pose the hypothesis that you and people like you are actually the ones who are scared of everything and anything they encounter, which is why you're far more willing to kill than calmer people (who are pro self-defence but contra unproportional force).

 

[ottenni]

Only if threatened. I mean if they pull a knife on you sure, but if its just some kids screwing around then no. You have a right to defend yourself and your property but you really need to think ahead and measure the situation. And no i don't mean sit down and think about it i mean are they shit scared kids or is it a burglar with a knife rather than going 'people! STABBY STABBY!'.

OT: Murder is probably a bit much, manslaughter would make more sense.

 

[GothmogII]

There's a pretty odd thing going on in this thread, most are on the face of things simply advocating the right to defend oneself, this is an admirable goal, durr.

But the comments really don't seem to back up that assertion and fall more into the realm of the various bodily harm they want to inflict upon their 'attackers', in quotes, because there seems to be an overriding thought that: If the 'attacker' is in your home, their life is forfeit, regardless of whether or not they make a hostile move, them being present somehow considered an intent to bodily harm in it's own right.

That my friends is a desire for bloodlust, for revenge. I can well understand the need to subdue a person burglarizing you home, but for goodness sake have some dignity! There is no need to act like some slasher villain, as if -their- trespass means you get to be a sadistic bastard in return. Subdue. Call the police. If they get hurt, or even killed in the process, fair enough, but don't go out of your way to inflict more harm than is needed. Sheesh.

 

[Serge A. Storms]

I'm pretty sure all "disproportional force" arguments are relying on the idea that someone walking in on a burglar stealing their shit is thinking clearly, and it also relies on the burglar thinking clearly. Look at what happened to Sean Taylor. They both freaked out when they saw each other, the burglar shot him in the leg, ended up hitting his femoral, and he was too far gone before the paramedics could get to him. No one had any intent to kill anyone, and that's not the point, the point was that the burglary itself poses a threat to the homeowners and potentially the burglars. If you can convince burglars to stop bringing guns when they rob houses and try to treat the homeowners with respect if they should come in contact, that would be nice, but that's just not how it usually plays out.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

I'm pretty sure all "disproportional force" arguments are relying on the idea that someone walking in on a burglar stealing their shit is thinking clearly, and it also relies on the burglar thinking clearly. Look at what happened to Sean Taylor. They both freaked out when they saw each other, the burglar shot him in the leg, ended up hitting his femoral, and he was too far gone before the paramedics could get to him. No one had any intent to kill anyone, and that's not the point, the point was that the burglary itself poses a threat to the homeowners and potentially the burglars. If you can convince burglars to stop bringing guns when they rob houses and try to treat the homeowners with respect if they should come in contact, that would be nice, but that's just not how it usually plays out.

Good argument for gun control right there.

If guns in the home were not legal, the incidences of burglars carrying weapons would drop significantly. Getting caught for just burglary is considerably less serious than getting caught for burglary, possession of a firearm, and even GHB or murder.

 

[internetzealot1]

They should've known the risks when they broke into his house.

 

[Serge A. Storms]

I'm pretty sure all "disproportional force" arguments are relying on the idea that someone walking in on a burglar stealing their shit is thinking clearly, and it also relies on the burglar thinking clearly. Look at what happened to Sean Taylor. They both freaked out when they saw each other, the burglar shot him in the leg, ended up hitting his femoral, and he was too far gone before the paramedics could get to him. No one had any intent to kill anyone, and that's not the point, the point was that the burglary itself poses a threat to the homeowners and potentially the burglars. If you can convince burglars to stop bringing guns when they rob houses and try to treat the homeowners with respect if they should come in contact, that would be nice, but that's just not how it usually plays out.

Good argument for gun control right there.

If guns in the home were not legal, the incidences of burglars carrying weapons would drop significantly. Getting caught for just burglary is considerably less serious than getting caught for burglary, possession of a firearm, and even GHB or murder.

Outlawing guns in homes means that you're practically guaranteed more cases of rape, murder, and other serious crimes as burglars will still be armed and will have virtually nothing to fear from law-abiding citizens. As it is, the mere threat that the homeowner might have a gun encourages the burglar to have as little contact with the homeowners as possible. In Sean Taylor's case, the only reason he died was because he had a knife and the burglar had a gun.

 

[Kukakkau]

If after threatening them with some sort of weapon they don't run out, then by all means go nuts on them.

If someone breaks into your house though you can't do nothing - the reasoning for the owner's actions is just. But still should have held back a little bit

 

[CloakedOne]

Yes. They're here to break in and steal what I've bought, so fuck 'em.