Poll: Porn.

[bobknowsall]

This... This isn't even cynicism. It's a tangle of metaphors and generalizations that ends by calling its readers "Sheeple". I'm not sure what you're trying to do here, but if you're looking for agreement or support, your methods seem a bit counter-productive.

Apparently so, if two people are telling me that now.

It seems I've underestimated the potency of the world "Sheeple." I actually specifically meant to refer that to the mindset that would call porn good just because everybody else is doing it.

There is no need to complicate the simple message that "Porn is not real, and you are pathetic if you watch it", and insulting anyone who disagrees with you is just an unpleasant and unnecessary tactic.

Did not say. Yes to, "Porn is not real." However, "you are pathetic if you watch it," is not exactly what I was going for... more like naive.

I think you've missed the history and connotations of the world "Sheeple", and I'll not judge you too harshly for that. But just for future reference: Only arrogant fools use the word "Sheeple" unironically. The rest of us just suggest that it might be better to think for oneself. But you probably weren't aware of the negative association that the word "Sheeple" carries.

Well, I wasn't too far off. Porn is faked, and it is naive to believe that it is real, but was it really necessary to couch that message in metaphor-filled, flowery language? (Something I do on a fairly regular basis, so I'm one to talk)

 

[milskidasith]

You raise some interesting points, and I don't doubt your experiences and opinions. However what you are saying is definitely not true in every case. The fact is that the porn industry and sex industry work in general requires someone to be pretty mentally strong going into it, contrary to popular belief it's not a job that everyone can do, and yes, it can certainly do people's heads in. Suicides are quite common. However, for someone with the right mindset, who has no illusions going into the business, it's a good way to make a lot of money while working very few hours, and in many segments of the industry a lifelong career is absolutely achievable. But it's not for everyone, certainly not an industry that I'd recommend to just anybody, hell no. You have to really want to do it, and be the right kind of person, but make no mistake, there are plenty of people who are in that boat. I've dated sex industry workers, in fact I'm dating someone right now who gets paid to do things in front of a camera which would definitely be classified by some people here as "pornography", and she loves it, there's nothing she'd rather be doing. But that's her - she's a no-bullshit tough cookie, with no illusions, who only does exactly what she wants, has full control of everything that happens in front of that camera and when I say full control of everything I really do mean absolutely fucking everything (pun intended). The idea of women in adult entertainment being naive drug-addicted fools being led down the garden path by evil porn producers is a stereotype, and while all stereotypes do certainly have a grain of truth to them (this, of course, is how they are created), they are never the complete picture, and it's always wrong to judge an entire industry or activity on the basis of the most common cliches.

Hint: if you have to backpedal back an forth with every point you're making in support of a thing, maybe trying a bit too hard to justify something that shouldn't be justified.

Because, while I appreciate your efforts here, I'm really not going to jump aboard the, "it's a terrible, terrible thing... but there are exceptions, so that's aaaaaaallllriight" train.

I'm not really sure if this is backpedaling at all... it's as much backpedaling as it would for you to admit that not every porn star is a suicidal drug addict with no life, and saying that there are well adjusted porn stars. Just because he's not taking his argument to the extreme you are doesn't mean he doesn't have a point, it just means that he's not painting the picture as entirely black and white when it is not.

But of course, I'm a sheeple, too young (despite me not giving me age), haven't seen how things are, don't grasp English as well as you do, and don't paint the argument in black and white, so my opinion is meaningless. I bow at your feet.

 

[bobknowsall]

Or get yourself injured... any of the "girls on top" positions just make me weep because I know at some point they didn't mount correctly.

Well, standard cowgirl will not necessarily get you injured, but reverse cowgirl will result in a trip to the emergency room if the girl slips. And no-one wants that.

 

[BonsaiK]

You raise some interesting points, and I don't doubt your experiences and opinions. However what you are saying is definitely not true in every case. The fact is that the porn industry and sex industry work in general requires someone to be pretty mentally strong going into it, contrary to popular belief it's not a job that everyone can do, and yes, it can certainly do people's heads in. Suicides are quite common. However, for someone with the right mindset, who has no illusions going into the business, it's a good way to make a lot of money while working very few hours, and in many segments of the industry a lifelong career is absolutely achievable. But it's not for everyone, certainly not an industry that I'd recommend to just anybody, hell no. You have to really want to do it, and be the right kind of person, but make no mistake, there are plenty of people who are in that boat. I've dated sex industry workers, in fact I'm dating someone right now who gets paid to do things in front of a camera which would definitely be classified by some people here as "pornography", and she loves it, there's nothing she'd rather be doing. But that's her - she's a no-bullshit tough cookie, with no illusions, who only does exactly what she wants, has full control of everything that happens in front of that camera and when I say full control of everything I really do mean absolutely fucking everything (pun intended). The idea of women in adult entertainment being naive drug-addicted fools being led down the garden path by evil porn producers is a stereotype, and while all stereotypes do certainly have a grain of truth to them (this, of course, is how they are created), they are never the complete picture, and it's always wrong to judge an entire industry or activity on the basis of the most common cliches.

Hint: if you have to backpedal back an forth with every point you're making in support of a thing, maybe trying a bit too hard to justify something that shouldn't be justified.

Because, while I appreciate your efforts here, I'm really not going to jump aboard the, "it's a terrible thing that has hurt a lot of people... but not every single person, so that's aaaaaaallllriight" train. That'd be great argument if you're trying to legalize crack cocaine.

This is flamebait and I'm not biting. I agree to disagree with you.

 

[geldonyetich]

Before I go to sleep (I'm up late... 4:30 in the morning here in England) I would like to point out one thing. You don't choose to be insulted... I didn't choose to be insulted... I read what you said and I simply was insulted.

Just because it's a subconscious choice does not make it any less a choice. If it was, there need not be such a thing as cognitive psychiatry, as you're basically saying that our ingrained habits are beyond reproach. They're not.

 

[milskidasith]

Before I go to sleep (I'm up late... 4:30 in the morning here in England) I would like to point out one thing. You don't choose to be insulted... I didn't choose to be insulted... I read what you said and I simply was insulted.

Just because it's a subconscious choice does not make it any less a choice. If it was, there need not be such a thing as psychiatry, as you're basically saying that our ingrained habits are beyond reproach.

This is... what? Are you honestly blaming other people for choosing to be insulted when the tone of your posts made said posts sound insulting? Why don't you apply the same logic to yourself: Just because it was a subconcious choice for your posts to be insulting doesn't mean that it wasn't a choice.

 

[geldonyetich]

Because, while I appreciate your efforts here, I'm really not going to jump aboard the, "it's a terrible thing that has hurt a lot of people... but not every single person, so that's aaaaaaallllriight" train. That'd be great argument if you're trying to legalize crack cocaine.

This is flamebait and I'm not biting. I agree to disagree with you.

You say you're agreeing to disagree with me because you don't like my tone.
I think you're agreeing to disagree with me because I pointed out how silly your argument was as you'd rather bow out than admit it.

 

[geldonyetich]

Just because it's a subconscious choice does not make it any less a choice. If it was, there need not be such a thing as psychiatry, as you're basically saying that our ingrained habits are beyond reproach.

This is... what? Are you honestly blaming other people for choosing to be insulted when the tone of your posts made said posts sound insulting? Why don't you apply the same logic to yourself: Just because it was a subconcious choice for your posts to be insulting doesn't mean that it wasn't a choice.

Maybe I'd have a different attitude if I had any control over when a person chooses to be insulted.

Personally, what you're doing right now insults me, but I'm not saying, "Ooh! Ooh! I'm insulted!" and shutting you down. That's simply not productive. That was my point.

 

[BonsaiK]

Because, while I appreciate your efforts here, I'm really not going to jump aboard the, "it's a terrible thing that has hurt a lot of people... but not every single person, so that's aaaaaaallllriight" train. That'd be great argument if you're trying to legalize crack cocaine.

This is flamebait and I'm not biting. I agree to disagree with you.

You say you're agreeing to disagree with me because you don't like my tone.
I think you're agreeing to disagree with me because I pointed out how silly your argument was as you'd rather bow out than admit it.

This is also flamebait and I'm still not biting.

 

[BonsaiK]

Because, while I appreciate your efforts here, I'm really not going to jump aboard the, "it's a terrible thing that has hurt a lot of people... but not every single person, so that's aaaaaaallllriight" train. That'd be great argument if you're trying to legalize crack cocaine.

This is flamebait and I'm not biting. I agree to disagree with you.

You say you're agreeing to disagree with me because you don't like my tone.
I think you're agreeing to disagree with me because I pointed out how silly your argument was as you'd rather bow out than admit it.

This is also flamebait and I'm still not biting.

Considering it was not wrought with an intent to be flamebait, but honest opinion as my last post was, your false claim that what I've written was the initial flamebait from my perspective. So, yeah, get the hell out of here if you want to be such a worthless contributor as to be unable to reply to my posts without crying wolf.

I've said what I wanted to say. That is all.

 

[Riven Armor]

Considering it was not wrought with an intent to be flamebait, but honest opinion as my last post was, your false claim that what I've written was the initial flamebait from my perspective. So, yeah, get the hell out of here if you want to be such a worthless contributor as to be unable to reply to my posts without crying wolf.

Brutal honesty is brutal. Flamebait doesn't have to be dishonest.

 

[milskidasith]

Just because it's a subconscious choice does not make it any less a choice. If it was, there need not be such a thing as psychiatry, as you're basically saying that our ingrained habits are beyond reproach.

This is... what? Are you honestly blaming other people for choosing to be insulted when the tone of your posts made said posts sound insulting? Why don't you apply the same logic to yourself: Just because it was a subconcious choice for your posts to be insulting doesn't mean that it wasn't a choice.

Maybe I'd have a different attitude if I had any control over when a person chooses to be insulted.

Personally, what you're doing right now insults me, but I'm not saying, "Ooh! Ooh! I'm insulted!" and shutting you down.

You do have control. Don't post insulting messages, even if it's implied, and other people won't get insulted. Just because you can't perfectly control other people doesn't mean you can't control how they respond to your posts; they can only respond to the content you create.

As for finding it insulting: Using apophasis (saying "I'm not saying" X, thus actually saying it) doesn't change your meaning. You're insulted. And you know what? I can accept my post caused you to be insulted, instead of blaming you from being insulted. Why can't you accept your posts are insulting to others?

Nobody is shutting you down by saying "I'm insulted." They're saying that your argument is less effective because it comes across less as a reasonable post and more as "You're all pathetic conformists and you suck and your opinions are irrelevant because I'm older than you and 'know' how things work." I don't care if your posts insult me, I'd just rather you A: Accept that your posts are causing other people to be insulted and B: realize if you weren't insulting, you could get your point across much better.

 

[geldonyetich]

Just because it's a subconscious choice does not make it any less a choice. If it was, there need not be such a thing as psychiatry, as you're basically saying that our ingrained habits are beyond reproach.

This is... what? Are you honestly blaming other people for choosing to be insulted when the tone of your posts made said posts sound insulting? Why don't you apply the same logic to yourself: Just because it was a subconcious choice for your posts to be insulting doesn't mean that it wasn't a choice.

Maybe I'd have a different attitude if I had any control over when a person chooses to be insulted.

Personally, what you're doing right now insults me, but I'm not saying, "Ooh! Ooh! I'm insulted!" and shutting you down.

You do have control. Don't post insulting messages, even if it's implied, and other people won't get insulted. Just because you can't perfectly control other people doesn't mean you can't control how they respond to your posts; they can only respond to the content you create.

I sure wish it as that easy, but in case you didn't notice, people get offended over whatever they damn well please. For example, take a look at what it took to scare BonsaiK off the thread:

Hint: if you have to backpedal back an forth with every point you're making in support of a thing, maybe trying a bit too hard to justify something that shouldn't be justified.

Because, while I appreciate your efforts here, I'm really not going to jump aboard the, "it's a terrible thing that has hurt a lot of people... but not every single person, so that's aaaaaaallllriight" train. That'd be great argument if you're trying to legalize crack cocaine.

I mean, what the hell? I apparently mortally wounded him by saying, "hint:" and ""aaaaaaallllriight." Could you have anticipated his skin was so ridiculously thin when you replied to him?

As for finding it insulting: Using apophasis (saying "I'm not saying" X, thus actually saying it) doesn't change your meaning. You're insulted. And you know what? I can accept my post caused you to be insulted, instead of blaming you from being insulted. Why can't you accept your posts are insulting to others?

It's not that I don't accept that my posts are insulting to others. However, I find that being insulted was their choice.

Come on, people, this is Kindergarten rules:
Harry: "OW! SALLY HIT ME!"
Sally: "HARRY MADE ME HIT HIM!"
Teacher: "Now Sally, did Harry make you hit him, or did you decide to react that way to what he said?"

This is the basis of cognitive psychology these days, Stimulus = Response is hold hat. It's Stimulus + Belief About That Stimulus = Response. I can't read your mind and tell you what your beliefs are, so it's inevitable I'm going to insult some people by expressing mine.

 

[lodo_bear]

I think you are a victim of pseudoscience. Tell you what, you present scientific papers supporting your argument and I will give them more than dismissive glance.

There is, of course, debate on this subject. To present the full debate, I offer these four links:
http://men.webmd.com/guide/is-pornography-addictive
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2004/11/65772
http://www.myaddiction.com/porn_addiction.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction

Some of the debate centers around the use of the term "addiction". Some argue that it's not a valid use, and they prefer the terms "obsession" or "compulsion", and make some good arguments for doing so. However, obsessions and compulsions are both damaging as well (ask anyone with OCD [http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-ocd/index.shtml]). I don't want to have anything to do with something that can screw me up like that. And that's what it comes down to.

Even aside from compulsion, porn ruins our ability to see each other as human beings:
http://nsrc.sfsu.edu/article/empathy_choices_pornography_debate
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/1030-26.htm
http://sociologyindex.com/etiological.htm

Porn is not good for us, and I support those who get people away from it [http://www.dmoz.org/Society/Sexuality/Sexual_Addiction/Pornography/].

It is an unfortunate necessity, I guess.
I'm not quite sure I understand the concept, though. I mean, I get that other guys need to do that shit as a sort of release, but the whole "watching people have sex" thing strikes me a sort of bizarre.

"OH GEE SHE IS PRETTY HOT HEY YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE GREAT SEEING SOME OTHER DUDE PUMMEL HER"

It's kinda fucked up, really.

Well said, Monkfish Acc. Well said.

 

[milskidasith]

Just because it's a subconscious choice does not make it any less a choice. If it was, there need not be such a thing as psychiatry, as you're basically saying that our ingrained habits are beyond reproach.

This is... what? Are you honestly blaming other people for choosing to be insulted when the tone of your posts made said posts sound insulting? Why don't you apply the same logic to yourself: Just because it was a subconcious choice for your posts to be insulting doesn't mean that it wasn't a choice.

Maybe I'd have a different attitude if I had any control over when a person chooses to be insulted.

Personally, what you're doing right now insults me, but I'm not saying, "Ooh! Ooh! I'm insulted!" and shutting you down.

You do have control. Don't post insulting messages, even if it's implied, and other people won't get insulted. Just because you can't perfectly control other people doesn't mean you can't control how they respond to your posts; they can only respond to the content you create.

I sure wish it as that easy, but in case you didn't notice, people get offended over whatever they damn well please. For example, take a look at what it took to scare BonsaiK off the thread. It sure wasn't anything you'd see scrawled on a bathroom wall, apparently he took offence to my use of the team, "aaaaaaalllright."

As for finding it insulting: Using apophasis (saying "I'm not saying" X, thus actually saying it) doesn't change your meaning. You're insulted. And you know what? I can accept my post caused you to be insulted, instead of blaming you from being insulted. Why can't you accept your posts are insulting to others?

It's not that I don't accept that my posts are insulting to others. However, I find that being insulted was their choice.

Come on, people, this is Kindergarten rules:
Harry: "OW! SALLY HIT ME!"
Sally: "HARRY MADE ME HIT HIM!"
Teacher: "Now Sally, did Harry make you hit him, or did you decide to react that way to what he said?"

This is the basis of cognitive psychology these days, Stimulus = Response is hold hat. It's Stimulus + Belief About That Stimulus = Response. I can't read your mind and tell you what your beliefs are, so it's inevitable I'm going to insult some people by expressing mine.

If you really believe that shit, fine, I can't change your mind. But to put things into your terms:

Stimulus: Geldonyetich is intentionally insulting (by continuing to post things you know will insult people, it is intentional).

Response: Even if he has valid points, nobody cares about the argument because it's being told by somebody who shows no respect for other posters or their opinions.

 

[geldonyetich]

If you really believe that shit, fine, I can't change your mind. But to put things into your terms:

Stimulus: Geldonyetich is intentionally insulting (by continuing to post things you know will insult people, it is intentional). [This is entirely my opinion based on my singular perspective of the situation, as I have chosen to ignore him every time he said he wasn't being deliberately insulting.]

Response: Even if he has valid points, nobody cares about the argument because it's being told by somebody who shows no respect for other posters or their opinions. [I am ignorant of that fact that, if this was the case, he wouldn't have even bothered replying to me.]

Very well. I shall leave you with the word for the day:

Fascism

"A political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

So good you could share with me my views of how I should or should not express myself today.

If you were my boss, or my parent, that'd be a different situation. But you're not. You're some guy who took it upon himself to educate somebody who was wrong on the Internet. What gave you the right? If I were being a disruptive son-of-a-***** who was insulting people for the hell of it, you'd be on to something, but all I've been doing here is exerting a little too much energy in my replies.

 

[Riven Armor]

If you really believe that shit, fine, I can't change your mind. But to put things into your terms:

Stimulus: Geldonyetich is intentionally insulting (by continuing to post things you know will insult people, it is intentional).

Response: Even if he has valid points, nobody cares about the argument because it's being told by somebody who shows no respect for other posters or their opinions.

Very well. I shall leave you with the word for the day:

Fascism

"A political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition."

So good you could share with me my views of how I should or should not express myself today.

Pointing out you are expressing yourself wrongly is not fascist. Repressing that expression might be fascist.

 

[blankedboy]

I enjoy some good porn every once in a while, and I really don't think there is anything wrong with it, so long as the participants are consenting adults.

Same here.
Although, hentai doesn't really follow that rule, because, y'know, not real people.

 

[geldonyetich]

Pointing out you are expressing yourself wrongly is not fascist. Repressing that expression might be fascist.

The fascist seed is in the bold-faced expression. The attempted repression is the pointing out.

You can't say I'm expressing myself wrongly because you are lacking an important component: being a true authority of right or wrong.