Poll: Prostitution

[LostInTheCosmos]

I should probably reply to some of these points, when I said make using rubbers law, I mean if we get to the point of legalised brothels, then legalised registered prostitutes should have to use condoms with each client or lose their licence and be arrested.

as for the last point, if you have a lot of cash, some types of people will pay you more attention, in the hopes of getting something out of it, sure it's not morally right, but it happens.

I think we have to agree on a basic biological fact that men are predisposed to want a lot of sex with a lot of different partners, we don't have to do it, but it's built into our psyche, and sometimes there's women who can disassociate sex from love and emotion too, if they can do it, they're providing a service to men, I just hope it gets legalised so it can be a safer service for both sides.

Let's not forget the hookers are not the only victim, clients get beaten, robbed, blackmailed etc, too.

How do you regulate the "rubbers law"? Now THAT is what I'm interested in. You can make all the laws you want, I'm wondering how it can be enforceable.

Well, paying for attention because you feel lonely - will that make you feel less lonely?

 

[LostInTheCosmos]

ahh the old "well prostitution might be ok but its a 'gate way drug'" argument. i dont buy it. there are allways places in any community where 'bad things' go on. why by your point of view the net itself should be shut down because its infested with porn. porn = bad and Lord knows that the net = porn so your logic says that net = bad right? trouble is that the net is like life all things exists and you go where they are to get what you want. why the same net that brings me porn ALSO brings me Billy Graham how can this possably BE?

you seem to be arguing this from the point of view that all hookers live in slums , are infested with diseases and drug habbits and a whore is somehow a magnet that will attract more of the same. i say what comes first the chicken or the egg? isnt it just possable that the slums and the drugs would still be there with or without the whores? and isnt it possable that a whore could make her living in a decient house with a nice lawn and flower pots under the windows? is it possable a whore could be a good neighbor? or even work in a 'real job' along with 'normal' people during the day? it is also possable that shes using sex for money to fund her education or to take care of a child? you seem to be have certian troubles with sterotypes.

the zoning laws thing ...... well now its not like most communities dont have zoning laws for everything up too and including how many nuts you can feed the local squirls. i dont want a red light next to a school for the same reason i dont want a nuclear power plant there or a chemical factory. each thing to its place. truth is if the brothel was low key i could care less if it was by my kids school or not, im much more worried about the Gym teacher porking the 14 year old girls after soccer practice than i am about what a hooker in a whole nother building is doing in her bedroom.

Here is where I'm curious... Why "to each thing to their own place?" and compare a brothel to a chemical plant? Already you've made the association that a brothel is a BAD place to put next to a school. If a brothel was a legitimate business like any other then the comparison would be more like a hair salon or department store - which wouldn't be bad to place next to a school.


And I'm still curious...

If the sex in marriage is not love, then why is it that your wife would not have sex with someone other than you? You say she wouldn't want to have sex with another person because she loves you. But if sex weren't a special expression of love why would it matter to you if she were monogamous?

Let me state it another way.

You don't believe that the sex in marriage equals love. So, if she bangs all of your friends but insists she loves you, isn't that just as equal to if she chose not to have sex with all of your friends and says she loves you?

 

[Baonec]

Not that i'd visit them or anything *shifty eyes* but it really should be legalised to protect those involved.

 

[Susan Arendt]

I don't think it's healthy for anyone to see their body as a product since it might just screw badly with your self esteem in the long run so...... No.

While I understand what you're saying, prostitution is not the only profession in which one's body is a product. Models, pro athletes...they're making a living based on their bodies, too.

The blow to one's self esteem comes from treated as though you are doing something wrong, that your choices somehow make you less than other people. Theoretically, if prostitution was a legalized and accepted form of employment, then being a whore would be just another job, and no more a blow to one's self esteem than being an accountant or a banker.

 

[LostInTheCosmos]

I don't think it's healthy for anyone to see their body as a product since it might just screw badly with your self esteem in the long run so...... No.

While I understand what you're saying, prostitution is not the only profession in which one's body is a product. Models, pro athletes...they're making a living based on their bodies, too.

The blow to one's self esteem comes from treated as though you are doing something wrong, that your choices somehow make you less than other people. Theoretically, if prostitution was a legalized and accepted form of employment, then being a whore would be just another job, and no more a blow to one's self esteem than being an accountant or a banker.

If that was the case, then what do you think of the following:
http://jezebel.com/384994/father-gives-daughter-bikini-waxes-rides-to-work-at-a-brothel

Seems like the ideal father, no?
http://jezebel.com/5050544/dad-who-waxes-daughters-bikini-area-returns-to-tyra

 

[Wyatt]

Here is where I'm curious... Why "to each thing to their own place?" and compare a brothel to a chemical plant? Already you've made the association that a brothel is a BAD place to put next to a school. If a brothel was a legitimate business like any other then the comparison would be more like a hair salon or department store - which wouldn't be bad to place next to a school.


And I'm still curious...

If the sex in marriage is not love, then why is it that your wife would not have sex with someone other than you? You say she wouldn't want to have sex with another person because she loves you. But if sex weren't a special expression of love why would it matter to you if she were monogamous?

Let me state it another way.

You don't believe that the sex in marriage equals love. So, if she bangs all of your friends but insists she loves you, isn't that just as equal to if she chose not to have sex with all of your friends and says she loves you?

ohh i wouldnt have a problem myself with putting a brothel next to a school but i can see where others might. i myself wouldnt really have a problem with putting a nuclear power plant next to a school but again i could see where others might.

im certianly not saying that brothels are a GOOD thing but i dont think that they are a BAD thing either. atleast not bad enough to make them illegal. i use the nuclear plant and the chemical plant for very good reasons, they offer good things with some (possable) bad side effects, its the same with hookers. your on the right track when you point out that alot of stuff CAN come with brothels (drugs, crime etc) and if we are realistic about it we dont put a potential hazard like that next to a school. but at the same time we dont make it ILLEGAL either, we simply make a place for it where we can maximise the the 'good' and minimize the 'bad' aspects.

i say to you that alot of the 'bad' comes not as a result of prostitution itself but rather as a result of it being illegal. people since the dawn of man have been fucking for money. no law or society has EVER found a way of stoping this and its a seriously ignorant person that refuses to see this. when you make it illegal the only thing you accomplish is that you drive those that are going to do it anyhow to create those very slums you discribe. you make a hooker the same thing as a drug dealer on the 'social' scale since they are both doing things that should otherwise be legal and they naturaly make common cause to survive and wam you have slums. and after creating these slums with foolish laws you point and shout "LOOK WHAT HAPPENES WHEN DRUGS AND HOOKERS MOVE INTO AN AREA" you CREATED these slums with YOUR laws and then blame the people in those slums for being what they are. its foolishness.

lookit im not saying that every hooker is a saint or every John is either. im certianly not saying every drug dealer is a saint nor every user. what i AM saying to you is that people will go to hookers and drug dealers no matter what the law says and the only way to actualy deal with these things isnt to make them illegal and lock up people for years. if the goal is to minimize the bad aspects of these things on society (and i say it is) than making it illegal doesnt acomplish that. its illegal NOW and we STILL have those bad aspects to deal with, all making it illegal has accomplished is to make the bad aspects even WORSE, there is huge money to be made from providing illegal things to people and that huge money will ALLWAYS attract REAL criminals and time after time in case after case cops and courts are wasting their time trying to clean out all the small fish cought in this net and the BIG ones continue to swim free.

the laws we have now dont work. thats not up for argument its a simple basic fact. drugs and prostitution have been illegal in most of America forever and its as popular today as its ever been. we need to just accept these things and then come up with a way that will minimize their bad impact on our society. but i think you will find that simple making them legal would accomplish much of that, if cops and courts didnt have to spend time arresting and putting on trail a poor working slob that just wanted to get his kicks on a friday night before going back to work monday with a case of crabs and a world class hang-over they could be dealing with REAL crimes , crimes they might actualy be able to STOP for longer than it takes them to cruise out of sight of a given street corner.

now to deal with your interest in my views on love and sex. let me repeat once more for you the part where i say

"sex between married couples can be very special but its not the SEX that makes it so its the love"

notice the first word of that statment? sex? it sets the context for all the words that follow ........ put another way perhaps it will make more sence to you "sex IS special between married people but its the LOVE that makes it so not the sex itself"

but i think i see where your stuck (or im stuck depending on how you look at it) your saying that my wife could love me and have that 'special sex' with me but that i should be ok with her having just plane old sex with my buddies at the same time is that it? after all i say sex is just sex and that it shouldnt hurt for her to pork my pals as long as she LOVES me and OUR sex remains special? well now you might have a point except that number 1 there are millions of couples out there that think JUST that. they are called swingers and have 'open marriages' so yeah i guess if i WAS saying that than id be right.

but thats not what im saying. its more basic than that. speaking only for myself ive been in love, true love, and i didnt want to have sex with another woman because i was in love with this one. the urge just wasnt in me, there was no attraction to other women, my 'animal nature' was turned off and the basic male need to rutt with other females didnt work. what im saying is that if this love wasnt in play, if i didnt have that sex drive turned off too all but my mate than i dont want her as a mate and the same thing from her end. if her sex drive wasnt limited to only me (of her own free will and because thats what she FELT) than we have bigger issues than who we are screwing. its not about sex its about love, if you have love than you limit yourself, no not even that, 'limit yourself' implys that its a choice and its not, its more basic, you simply feel no attraction to anyone but your mate. if this doesnt happen and you dont feel this way than its not love and you have bigger issues to deal with than sex.

 

[LostInTheCosmos]

I think to really address the issue of prostitution, we need to take a step back.

I believe that the Kantian formula for morality is one of the best formulations for what is good vs. what is evil:
"We ought to love people and use things. We ought not to use people and love things."

The issue of prostitution (as well as other crimes) is that at root, it uses people as a means to an end. Pornography and prostitution both teach that it is ok to use people as a means of pleasure - sexual pleasure.

Love is just the opposite as you point out. The pleasure of sex is not the end goal in marital love. The object of love is the other person. Sex is merely one of many means to express that love.

And because you love the other person, you will not let yourself be denigrated as an object that someone else uses.

I've known many "open marriages" both in college and after college. Not a single one of their marriages has survived being "swingers" or "polyamorous." That is because the difference of being loved and being used is crossed many times over that they no longer can distinguish between the two.

I believe that part of the confusion of the issue of prostitution has a lot to do with the mainstreaming of pornography. Because we allow one form of using people for pleasure through the eye of the camera, why not other forms such as prostitution? I agree there is hypocrisy to allow one and not the other.

I believe that crime follows prostitution not because prostitution is illegal, but because all crimes have at root the same moral problem - "that people are to be used and things to be loved." It trains people to dehumanize each other into mere objects of use than true subjects whose identity is to be treasured.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

The issue of prostitution (as well as other crimes) is that at root, it uses people as a means to an end. Pornography and prostitution both teach that it is ok to use people as a means of pleasure - sexual pleasure.

Hands up those who have looked at pornography here? Whoa...lot of hands...
Keep your hands up (not there you pervert) those who think it's ok to use their partners as tools? ...Hrrm...not many...In fact I can't see one.

/Disproved

Love is just the opposite as you point out. The pleasure of sex is not the end goal in marital love. The object of love is the other person. Sex is merely one of many means to express that love.

Don't see that many divorces from prostitutes...or unsatisfied customers...

Nietsche - ?There is always some madness in love. But there is also always some reason in madness.?

And because you love the other person, you will not let yourself be denigrated as an object that someone else uses.

Hands back up all those who've been in an abusive relationship? Oooh....quite a few there.

I've known many "open marriages" both in college and after college. Not a single one of their marriages has survived being "swingers" or "polyamorous."

Hands? Oh still quite a few.

That is because the difference of being loved and being used is crossed many times over that they no longer can distinguish between the two.

Hold on...bit of a jump from "I know these people" to "I know why their relationship didn't work".

Perhaps the basis of love, and thus sex, is about 'understanding each other'?

If you can find evidence of a 'one love for life' gene in our makeup that's not in any other species (One only has to look at the Bonobo monkey's (Our nearest sexual makeup)), then I'd say you have a point. At the moment, all you have is a theory based on things you cannot know.


Oh, and Mary Magdelane? Jesus's closest friend? Lot of time on her back.

 

[Erana]

Prostitution would make things safer for everyone-
The prostitutes would have to have clean bills of health, lessening the spread of horrible disease.

 

[Dramatic Flare]

I think two conditions ought to be part of the regulation:

1) Monthly (is that too extreme) STD checks, and healthy insurance (supplied by the brothel or government or what have you, I'm British so we don't need it but it's a concern)

I agree with both, except I don't think it's extreme enough.
it should be once a week. There is precedent, as an article I read in Natl. Geo. did an article about the prostitutes in some South American nation. Every Sunday morning they had to check in or they could be arrested for their activities.

 

[LostInTheCosmos]

The issue of prostitution (as well as other crimes) is that at root, it uses people as a means to an end. Pornography and prostitution both teach that it is ok to use people as a means of pleasure - sexual pleasure.

Hands up those who have looked at pornography here? Whoa...lot of hands...
Keep your hands up (not there you pervert) those who think it's ok to use their partners as tools? ...Hrrm...not many...In fact I can't see one.

/Disproved

Not so fast there. If you look at the trending of divorce cases, since 1995 (the mainstreaming of the Internet) pornography has become one of the main issues of divorce cases.

Love is just the opposite as you point out. The pleasure of sex is not the end goal in marital love. The object of love is the other person. Sex is merely one of many means to express that love.

Don't see that many divorces from prostitutes...or unsatisfied customers...

So... Where have you researched your numbers that affairs (which include prostitutes) don't cause divorces?

If you can find evidence of a 'one love for life' gene in our makeup that's not in any other species (One only has to look at the Bonobo monkey's (Our nearest sexual makeup)), then I'd say you have a point. At the moment, all you have is a theory based on things you cannot know.

I love it when people use the "animals do it too" line of reasoning to back up their habits. Animals also have sex with siblings, their children, their parents. Animals also rape and have sex with other species.

Just because animals exhibit these behaviors does not mean it justifies our own.

 

[Murrah]

59% said "Yes"?
What is the matter with all of you? Well not all of you.. I mean to those people who agreed with this Prostitution is not good at all. Find a Girl/Boyfriend or "F**k buddies" if you prefer, but prostitution is not good. However in Netherland it is apparently legal, so for those of you who lives in Netherlands... Good for you.

 

[Jharry5]

If both people involved want to be there, doing the deed - and if there are also controls that stop those that are in that line of work from coming to harm - then I don't see why others feel the need to interfere.
There should also be regulations put in place such as healthcare and check ups, and mandatory protection (sorry for the vulgarity... but it's the best way to protect both parties).

 

[Fronken]

If porn is legal, then prostitution should be legal. Why is it okay to accept money for sex if there's a camera running, but if not then everyone involved goes to jail?

Best thing i've read all day, you are so damn right.

I honestly fail to see why Prostitution is illegal in the first place, shouldnt your own body be yours?, and not the governments?

 

[Fronken]

59% said "Yes"?
What is the matter with all of you? Well not all of you.. I mean to those people who agreed with this Prostitution is not good at all. Find a Girl/Boyfriend or "F**k buddies" if you prefer, but prostitution is not good. However in Netherland it is apparently legal, so for those of you who lives in Netherlands... Good for you.

whats bad about it?, if you enjoy your own body and want to make money from it, why shouldn't you be allowed to?, oh, and not everyone has it as good as you and can find boy/girlfriends and fuck-friends everywhere, some of us cant find love, so i'd like it if you showed a little respect for those not as blessed as you...

 

[Murrah]

59% said "Yes"?
What is the matter with all of you? Well not all of you.. I mean to those people who agreed with this Prostitution is not good at all. Find a Girl/Boyfriend or "F**k buddies" if you prefer, but prostitution is not good. However in Netherland it is apparently legal, so for those of you who lives in Netherlands... Good for you.

whats bad about it?, if you enjoy your own body and want to make money from it, why shouldn't you be allowed to?, oh, and not everyone has it as good as you and can find boy/girlfriends and fuck-friends everywhere, some of us cant find love, so i'd like it if you showed a little respect for those not as blessed as you...

Who said Im blessed? I dont want to make an argument about it.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

The issue of prostitution (as well as other crimes) is that at root, it uses people as a means to an end. Pornography and prostitution both teach that it is ok to use people as a means of pleasure - sexual pleasure.

Hands up those who have looked at pornography here? Whoa...lot of hands...
Keep your hands up (not there you pervert) those who think it's ok to use their partners as tools? ...Hrrm...not many...In fact I can't see one.

/Disproved

Not so fast there. If you look at the trending of divorce cases, since 1995 (the mainstreaming of the Internet) pornography has become one of the main issues of divorce cases.

Really? Then you've no problem with the fact that the divorce rate for 2008 is the lowest it's been for 26 years? [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7587641.stm] I don't believe there's been a ban on porn or prostitution lately.

And actually, you're completely wrong on pornography. From the BBC itself

MAIN REASONS FOR DIVORCE 2004
Extra-marital affair - 27%
Family strains - 18%
Abuse - 17%
Mid-life crisis - 13%
Addictions - 6%
Workaholism - 6%

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4198951.stm

Don't see looking at porn anywhere in there. And before you jump on the 27%, that's down from last year; and affairs usually happen with work colleagues rather than prostitutes.

Love is just the opposite as you point out. The pleasure of sex is not the end goal in marital love. The object of love is the other person. Sex is merely one of many means to express that love.

Don't see that many divorces from prostitutes...or unsatisfied customers...

So... Where have you researched your numbers that affairs (which include prostitutes) don't cause divorces?

I hadn't but see above. You can't really get divorced FROM a prostitute though. As for BECAUSE of a prostitute, there are no hard and fast figures.(Gosh, that's rather appropriate)

If you can find evidence of a 'one love for life' gene in our makeup that's not in any other species (One only has to look at the Bonobo monkey's (Our nearest sexual makeup)), then I'd say you have a point. At the moment, all you have is a theory based on things you cannot know.

I love it when people use the "animals do it too" line of reasoning to back up their habits. Animals also have sex with siblings, their children, their parents. Animals also rape and have sex with other species.

Just because animals exhibit these behaviors does not mean it justifies our own.

Dude, Homo Sapiens IS an animal. Just because we've come down from the trees doesn't mean our bodies have.

I believe our old friends the Japanese or the Arabians have made pornography illegal, but there's still quite a high divorce rate. As well as the Ancient Romans, the Ancient Greeks, or ...every other race or creed in the world's history.

Even Hera had a divorce after Zeus had his way with a selection of strumpets, but that family was more dysfunctional than the Simpsons.