Poll: Rap Music

[Trace2010]

Eggo,

"Hell, African Americans have been massively marginalized since they've been brought to America and yet, their cultural output is so significant that most of American culture, at least musically, is based upon it."

As a music teacher, I will give you that one. Nearly all music listened to in America is a derivative from black culture. Trace almost any genre of American popular music today, and you will find its roots in blues, dixieland, or work songs.

Marches and Classical structures do not fit this catagory, though Wynton Marsailles and Duke Ellington (Jazz "Nutcracker" Suite), have made significant contributions to classical music.

Even Gershwin and Irving Berlin tried to give black music a white feel, and there is always Scott Joplin, who showed whites what "Rag Time" looked on paper.

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

I believe in meritocracy, but a monocultural hegemony commits the greatest evil of internally destroying a meritocracy while pretending it is actually bolstering it.

Can you explain in more detail how a cultural hegemony necessarily will internally destroy a meritocracy? There were always be class divisions in a capitalist society, and no doubt it's harder to move out of the class you were born into, although it's not impossible. My point about rap music is that it seems to glorify the very things that I feel are fucking up the meritocracy. Urban blacks generally resent middle class blacks and regard them as 'race traitors' for moving out of the lower class. This attitude is especially encouraged in the rap community - how are a people supposed to pull themselves out of despair when doing so is looked down upon? I've heard black people say myself that black men who come out of prison get a hell of a lot more respect than people who come out of college.

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

Just because one culture is dominant doesn't mean that there are no opportunities for anyone else. And to your point about people adoring outlaws - I think it's inaccurate to say that people ADORE them, rather they are FASCINATED by them. We like hearing their stories because they're outlandish and interesting, not because we like them as people. I'm interested in things like serial killers and such, but not because I have any adoration for Manson or Bundy - rather i'm fascinated by them. This is not the same as glorifying pimping, drug dealing, stealing, etc, in the way that you will see in black culture. You do make a valid point about self identified rednecks, but this sort of attitude is based on working class pride - not hate for people who bettered themselves. Crime is also not glorified in these cultures in the same way that it is in black culture, so I think the comparison is a bit unfair.

 

[Ares Tyr]

Just because one culture is dominant doesn't mean that there are no opportunities for anyone else. And to your point about people adoring outlaws - I think it's inaccurate to say that people ADORE them, rather they are FASCINATED by them. We like hearing their stories because they're outlandish and interesting, not because we like them as people. I'm interested in things like serial killers and such, but not because I have any adoration for Manson or Bundy - rather i'm fascinated by them. This is not the same as glorifying pimping, drug dealing, stealing, etc, in the way that you will see in black culture. You do make a valid point about self identified rednecks, but this sort of attitude is based on working class pride - not hate for people who bettered themselves. Crime is also not glorified in these cultures in the same way that it is in black culture, so I think the comparison is a bit unfair.

I like Slim Thug.

 

[Arntor]

I mean, rock's a very broad type of music, it can have violins and church organs and little boxes that go bleep when you push a little button on it, and although guitars are a near-ubiquitous aspect of the genre as a whole, they aren't totally necessary

So can hip-hop, probably even more so since the artists are not completely reliant on at least the basic Guitar+Bass+Drum+Vocal combo that seems standard to every rock band. Some hip-hop groups use jazz ensembles and many DJs use a whole variety of backing tracks that range from Classical to Electronic to Metal. Hip-hop has the potential to use any existing genre of music to create and innovate its sound.

But rap... well, let's be honest here, there's only so much you can do with a muscular black guy in approximately fifty-three tonnes worth of bling shouting obscenities into a microphone. It simply doesn't require as much depth or musical proficiency as other forms of music, it's music at it's most raw and unsophisticated, at it's most... functional.

-sigh- I believe I've already covered this in my first post to this thread. You are basing everything you know about Hip-hop on only the bad artists you've heard and from there you've built a poor image of what it is. Yeah, sure, you can quote Soulja Boy to prove your point, but I can quote any shitty Hair Metal band from the 80's just as easily. I'll repeat this again, the differences in skill apply only to individual musicians, not genres. Each genre has its own methods in creation.

"There are exceptions" does not validate your argument. In the 80's Metallica, Iron Maiden, Venom, and a great number of underground metal bands were "exceptions", Elvis Presley was an "exception", Frank Sinatra was an "exception", Ludwig Von Beethoven was an "exception". Time is a great filter for music, as most of the terribly bad artists will be washed away. To be honest, I think your only experience in actually listening to Hip-hop was from a detached mode, only through one ear as some kids were blasting at a party, or begrudgingly accepting an mp3 from a friend. That's merely speculation though. Again, it's alright if you're not interested, but don't try to define it if you don't give it a chance. A genre is too wide to place absolutes like "good" or "bad" objectively.

There are exceptions, of course, but rap and "nu-soul" (read: shit-on-a-disc) by and large doesn't have as much of a political bent as rock. Rock musicians often try to change something. Most rappers don't care about any world other than their own, and it's not difficult to see why - if they are to be believed, then every black or Latino man in America and Britain commits about eighteen murders before their hearty breakfast of cheap crack, bitches and bullets.

Again, see Hair Metal, many of the bands were in it for the money and chicks because they figured out that if they can make one "anthem" typey song and one rock ballad they were guaranteed for success. This is no different than mainstream rappers today, being only that the terminology has changed into Bling-bling and hoes.


And here's your goddamn political bent. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRvFzPkFUm0]

 

[Ares Tyr]

This is what happens when I take a night off. Everyone starts a bunch of big debates and I don't get to be a part of it. I hate all of you.

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

And here's your goddamn political bent. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRvFzPkFUm0]

I've heard some Immortal Technique songs and I'll say they aren't half bad - although I take exception to his attitude that white people are to blame for poverty and am strongly opposed to his political views and support for things like the black panthers, at least he has a head on his shoulders and gives his views in a straightforward, unapologetic and honest way. I can admire that in anybody to a degree, and it's a plus that he doesn't stoop so low as to resort to woman-hating and bragging about "money, clothes, cars and hoes"... at least from what I've heard personally, anyway.

 

[Arntor]

This is what happens when I take a night off. Everyone starts a bunch of big debates and I don't get to be a part of it. I hate all of you.

Honestly, I was just going to let you handle all the Hip-hop debating, but I got impatient.

"There's...something...wrong...on...INTERRNEEEEET!"

 

[Arntor]

I've heard some Immortal Technique songs and I'll say they aren't half bad - although I take exception to his attitude that white people are to blame for poverty and am strongly opposed to his political views and support for things like the black panthers, at least he has a head on his shoulders and gives his views in a straightforward, unapologetic and honest way. I can admire that in anybody to a degree, and it's a plus that he doesn't stoop so low as to resort to woman-hating and bragging about "money, clothes, cars and hoes"... at least from what I've heard personally, anyway.

Yeah, I don't agree with him either, but I make a habit of not letting my views overtake what's important - the music.

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

Also, Eggo, when I asked what was wrong with being an upper class white person you replied with some quote about jazz. Can you explain why you were bashing them so much and implying that it's not okay to be an upper class white? Is it the upper class part that's immoral, because I was unaware that hard work leading to prosperity was a sin, or is it the fact that they're white, which would be a pretty racist thing to say, don't you think?

 

[The Iron Ninja]

Where's the "it's a blight apon the face of the universe" option?

here you go. exact words and all.

Yay! Now I can vote!

 

[KittywifaMohawk]

I really really don't like it, I find it annoying(no offense to you rap lovers out there) The only rap I can really stand is Flobots to be honest.

Other then that, I'm all Techno, and Rock

 

[Ares Tyr]

When did Flobots become so popular? Because of "Handlebars"?

 

[Mistah Kurtz]

What the hell is a flobot? Some kind of device to help you pee?

 

[The Iron Ninja]

I don't even know what flobots is and I'm already intrigued by the promise of handlebars.

 

[shadowcaptain]

hmm this thread annoys me

peoples misconception of rap music really boils my blood - you cant just say "RAP" music and call it that genre

however i am a lover or rap and hip hop i dont like mainstteam MTV rap though that also boils my blood

heres my list of good artists

Immortal Technique, MF Doom, Jedi Mind Tricks, Aesop Rock, Mr Lif, Dr Octagon, K-Os, Dialated Peoples, (sorta mainsteam) Lupe Fiasco, Canibus, Company Flow, El-P, Non Phixion, Atmosphere, Division X (good friends found em on myspace), Cage, Hanger 18, Wu Tang (gotta be), Army Of The Pharoahs, Substance Abuse, Jurrasic 5, Mos Def, Talib Kweli

sorry for that but thats what RAP music is to me (and none of them are just talking about blastic caps, hoes and shit) that image of rap music is only for small minded people that have never hear real rap artists

 

[Marbas]

You know very little about Rock and Rap. For every GANGZTUGH Rap artist there's a Nu-Metal angster.

Check out:
Cage
cloudDEAD
Aesop Rock
Dalek

Nu metal IS rap. Nu metal is Limp Bizkit and Linkin Park.

It's also rock however. A better example probably would have been whiny pop-rock bands like Fall Out Boy, Simple Plan, Rise Against, etc.

 

[TheBadass]

What the hell is a flobot? Some kind of device to help you pee?

Isn't it one of those bowls the French use to clean (parts of) themselves? Nice.