Poll: School District about to Get Sued

[Belated]

http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/05/20/this-district-is-about-to-get-sued/

I was Browsing Fark and i saw this article. it blows my mind that prayer is still such an integral part of a schools graduation ceremony when it has been deemed illegal several times by the supreme court. I myself am an Atheist, however i do believe people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe in private, in public especially places built by and paid for by the Federal Government religion has no place. Your Thoughts?

Um, I hope you didn't mean by the bolded statement what it sounds like you mean. I'm not letting you segregate me to my house only. If I want to display my affiliation to the gods in public, I'm going to do so. And that's my right that nobody will take from me as long as I'm alive. You think it's bad when we force our beliefs on you? Don't be a hypocrite. I shouldn't have to hide my religion from people. Or do you not remember what happened the last time religious people were forced to hide it? Yes, I went there.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

We have separation of church and state for good reason.

Do what you like in private, but keep it out of the schools.

His reasoning for the suit is a little silly, but good for him anyway.

 

[Fwee]

It looks like this guy was perfectly within his rights to try to remove the public prayer from a graduation ceremony in a public school. This nation has a little law about the separation of church and state, which I'm glad is also known as the "Tough Shit Rule".
Private schools have the right to all the prayer they desire, because they don't receive public funding.
Slightly unrelated note:
I find it funny that many people say "Let them pray, who's it gonna hurt?"
And many people also say "They can be gay, as long as they're not flamboyant about it."
How about "They can pray, as long as they're not flamboyant about it." and "Let them be gay, who's it gonna hurt?"
Personally, if my graduation would have featured a religious waste of my time, I would have completely lost my shit. And I would have been within my rights as a student of a public school.

 

[Mrsoupcup]

It's a PUBLIC School, so no they shouldn't pray. Though I could care less about what Private religious schools do, but a public school is PUBLIC.

See this is why we need a proper separation of church and state, I'd hate to see America have an "official religion" like the UK.

 

[Bags159]

What I love is all the atheists bitching about how the religious people are forcing their beliefs on them, so they turn around and try to push a law through preventing the religious from practicing their religion. So basically it's unacceptable for someone else to tell them what to do, but totally okay for them to tell someone else what to do. I'd like to shoot these fucking hypocrites in the head with a 12-gauge shotgun.

Now as for the actual issue - okay, now I agree, a school really shouldn't be pushing a prayer over on its student body, fair enough. Moment of silence in which the individual can do as they please, fine, prayer, probably not. But you know, making a big deal out of it and getting the ACLU and the government involved is fucking overkill for something that really doesn't matter.

You'd think a functioning human that was secure in their own beliefs could just sit there respectfully for thirty seconds and let the religious say a few brief words, but this guy is apparently not that. He's an immature little kid who can't stand it that other people have different opinions from him and therefor tries to force his beliefs on them under the defense that they're forcing their beliefs on them. He is creating far more of a problem than the one that already exists.

To offer another point, no one is forcing you to pray. If you don't believe there's a bearded man in the sky then don't talk to him. If you're firm in your beliefs then everyone else praying shouldn't bother you at all. Let people believe what they want.

It's the law that PUBLIC schools are not supposed to endorse religion. It's not preventing you from practicing your belief; it's preventing schools from mandating prayer. I have no problem with you practicing your beliefs, but it's ridiculous to waste school time on prayer.

Yeah, it's seriously overkill to get the government involved when a school is fucking breaking the law. The nerve of some people. Just because you don't agree with the law doesn't mean you get to ignore it.

Who says he's not secure in his beliefs? I'm secure in my beliefs, but it would have been awkward as hell to be one of the few to not engage in a school mandated prayer at my high school. I can't imagine being an athiest in a school mandating prayer in the bible-belt. /shudder

 

[Extraintrovert]

It's too bad there aren't any buildings specifically designed for people to go and make wishes to an invisible man who lives in the sky.

I know, right? Maybe something should be done about this. Like... I don't know, religious organisations purchasing land (completely tax free, of course) and building their own specialised facilities for this sort of thing. Maybe have a sign out front that says "Church of [insert denomination here]", or a big symbol on the front or the roof, like a cross or whatever that particular religion considers holy. Maybe there could be laws that guarantee religions have the right to establish places such as these and practice their beliefs without interference. Warp, maybe even if they get enough money they can establish their own schools, where they can determine policies such as this.

Unfortunately, until such a time the religious are forced to break the law and continue to practice their beliefs in public schools, forever at the mercy of those evil atheists, never given a moment's respite from their desire not to be exposed to bullshit.

...What the fuck did I just type?

 

[Char-Nobyl]

Student who complained is a dick. What did he/she/it expect when they called the superintendent and threatened to call the ACLU if the school didn't make changes to the graduation ceremony?

"...emotionally distressing on anyone who isn't a Christian?" Really? This kid is the worst kind of Atheist: the kind who hyperventilates at the thought that someone nearby might be thanking God on one of the biggest days of their lives.

This man is a hero.

Not because he got prayer taken out of a ceremony, but because he stood up for his constitutional right to be free from Religion.

You added two new letters there. It's freedom 'of' religion, not freedom 'from.' The kids aren't being forced to go to church the day of graduation.

I agree that prayer isn't a big deal. If you don't believe in a god, then you believe they're just talking to themselves. However, Religion has no place in an institution of education. The emotional ties one has to their religion brings to much of a bias into the system.

It's a graduation ceremony, ie the biggest day of these kids highschool careers, of their entire education careers up to that point. Hell, the school itself has enough problems making sure everything goes off without a hitch without some anal-retentive kid threatening them with action from the ACLU if they don't change shit to accommodate them.

So he's a hero to you, even if he's hated by his community? And all because he was unreasonably demanding that his constitutional rights be followed to the letter rather than the spirit of the law? I can only imagine how ecstatic you get when WBC pickets military funerals. After all, they're reviled by the community, but they're celebrating freedom of speech. They must be heroes!

 

[Mcmuffin]

http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/05/20/this-district-is-about-to-get-sued/

I was Browsing Fark and i saw this article. it blows my mind that prayer is still such an integral part of a schools graduation ceremony when it has been deemed illegal several times by the supreme court. I myself am an Atheist, however i do believe people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe in private, in public especially places built by and paid for by the Federal Government religion has no place. Your Thoughts?

Um, I hope you didn't mean by the bolded statement what it sounds like you mean. I'm not letting you segregate me to my house only. If I want to display my affiliation to the gods in public, I'm going to do so. And that's my right that you cannot take from me. You think it's bad when we force our beliefs on you? Don't be a hypocrite. I shouldn't have to hide my religion from people. Or do you not remember what happened the last time religious people were forced to hide it? Yes, I went there.

Right that didn't really come out the way i wanted it too, what i meant to say is that its not appropriate for a school to lead the prayer, just like it would be innapropriate for me to walk into a classroom and say "there is no god" directly to the face of a devout christian, everyone should be able to believe what they want to believe but they should nto be able to use publicly funded places to further those beliefs, like schools, rec centers, and places like that. I dont think one should be persecuted for your belief god, or Buhdda or whatever you believe in as that would be incredibly hypocritical of me.

 

[Mechanix]

I go to a Jewish school and we do have Christians in it. We have a half hour prayers evey morning and you have to attend but you don't have to pray. The teachers respect those who are atheist or Chrstian. If the majority of the school was Christian or it was a CHRISTIAN school ie they did Bible studies or what not, then he was wrong. It depends on how "Christian" the school is. And American law is stupid, just a fact.

A jewish school is a private institution, the school can mandate whatever it wants because it isn't a public school. I don't know why a christian or atheist family would send their kid to a school like that, but if they had an issue with it, then they could just go to public.

It has nothing to do with how christian a school is. A public school shouldn't do anything religious. It isn't a stupid law either, how would you feel if a school you were forced to go to required prayer to a deity you didn't believe in? People really did have to ask themselves that question many years ago, and that's why the law is in place.

 

[Bags159]

"...emotionally distressing on anyone who isn't a Christian?" Really? This kid is the worst kind of Atheist: the kind who hyperventilates at the thought that someone nearby might be thanking God on one of the biggest days of their lives.

1.) Live in Bible-Belt
2.) School assembles for prayer
3.) Every single student besides you is praying

At what point can this not lead to emotional distress?

So he's a hero to you, even if he's hated by his community? And all because he was unreasonably demanding that his constitutional rights be followed to the letter rather than the spirit of the law? I can only imagine how ecstatic you get when WBC pickets military funerals. After all, they're reviled by the community, but they're celebrating freedom of speech. They must be heroes!

Using this logic we shouldn't enforce speed limits either because they're hated by the community.

Is there a rule like "godwin's law" for comparing someone trying to uphold the law to the WBC?

 

[Kopikatsu]

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Matthew 6:5-7

Even the Bible doesn't agree with the school. I'll enjoy watching Bastrop High School burn

Um, I hope you didn't mean by the bolded statement what it sounds like you mean. I'm not letting you segregate me to my house only. If I want to display my affiliation to the gods in public, I'm going to do so. And that's my right that you cannot take from me. You think it's bad when we force our beliefs on you? Don't be a hypocrite. I shouldn't have to hide my religion from people. Or do you not remember what happened the last time religious people were forced to hide it? Yes, I went there.

If you're Christian...well...see the above verse.

 

[Escapefromwhatever]

Poll question is silly. Individuals praying in school is fine- I've done it. But that's not what the article is about. The article is about a school-organized prayer that alienates any non-Christians, including Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, etc. That shit is illegal and not okay. If it were a private institution, things would be different, but it's not.

 

[Belated]

http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/05/20/this-district-is-about-to-get-sued/

I was Browsing Fark and i saw this article. it blows my mind that prayer is still such an integral part of a schools graduation ceremony when it has been deemed illegal several times by the supreme court. I myself am an Atheist, however i do believe people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe in private, in public especially places built by and paid for by the Federal Government religion has no place. Your Thoughts?

Um, I hope you didn't mean by the bolded statement what it sounds like you mean. I'm not letting you segregate me to my house only. If I want to display my affiliation to the gods in public, I'm going to do so. And that's my right that you cannot take from me. You think it's bad when we force our beliefs on you? Don't be a hypocrite. I shouldn't have to hide my religion from people. Or do you not remember what happened the last time religious people were forced to hide it? Yes, I went there.

Right that didn't really come out the way i wanted it too, what i meant to say is that its not appropriate for a school to lead the prayer, just like it would be innapropriate for me to walk into a classroom and say "there is no god" directly to the face of a devout christian, everyone should be able to believe what they want to believe but they should nto be able to use publicly funded places to further those beliefs, like schools, rec centers, and places like that. I dont think one should be persecuted for your belief god, or Buhdda or whatever you believe in as that would be incredibly hypocritical of me.

Oh. Cool. Guess I was worried for nothing. Heh. Guess I went a bit overboard there. Ah well, all is well.

On topic: I am against schools forcing children to pray or having prayer be part of their schedule. However, there are people who also feel children shouldn't even be allowed to wear or display religious icons in school. Personally, I feel this is wrong. If a kid wants to pray or display his religious affiliation in school, he should be able to. But doing so shouldn't be part of the curriculum.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

Seems fine to me.

I went to a Church of England Primary School, even though I'm pretty much agnostic now I can still pull most of the Lord's Prayer from memory.

Never messed me up.

Absolutely agreed. People need to frikkin relax, whether they are Christian, Muslim, athiest, or whatever. Should prayer be required in public school? No. Should prayer be allowed? Why the hell not?

Because Public schools are not allowed to endorse a single religion is that hard to understand?

Just because something happens doesn't mean it's being "endorse[d]." And hell, by that logic, expressly forbidding the practice of religion is an "endorse[ment]" of Atheism.

 

[Escapefromwhatever]

Student who complained is a dick. What did he/she/it expect when they called the superintendent and threatened to call the ACLU if the school didn't make changes to the graduation ceremony?

"...emotionally distressing on anyone who isn't a Christian?" Really? This kid is the worst kind of Atheist: the kind who hyperventilates at the thought that someone nearby might be thanking God on one of the biggest days of their lives.

This man is a hero.

Not because he got prayer taken out of a ceremony, but because he stood up for his constitutional right to be free from Religion.

You added two new letters there. It's freedom 'of' religion, not freedom 'from.' The kids aren't being forced to go to church the day of graduation.

Actually, it's more along the lines of "The government of the United States shall not make any law endorsing a particular religion..." Christian prayer in a government institution? Sounds like an endorsement to me.

 

[Mcmuffin]

http://friendlyatheist.com/2011/05/20/this-district-is-about-to-get-sued/

I was Browsing Fark and i saw this article. it blows my mind that prayer is still such an integral part of a schools graduation ceremony when it has been deemed illegal several times by the supreme court. I myself am an Atheist, however i do believe people are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe in private, in public especially places built by and paid for by the Federal Government religion has no place. Your Thoughts?

Um, I hope you didn't mean by the bolded statement what it sounds like you mean. I'm not letting you segregate me to my house only. If I want to display my affiliation to the gods in public, I'm going to do so. And that's my right that you cannot take from me. You think it's bad when we force our beliefs on you? Don't be a hypocrite. I shouldn't have to hide my religion from people. Or do you not remember what happened the last time religious people were forced to hide it? Yes, I went there.

Right that didn't really come out the way i wanted it too, what i meant to say is that its not appropriate for a school to lead the prayer, just like it would be innapropriate for me to walk into a classroom and say "there is no god" directly to the face of a devout christian, everyone should be able to believe what they want to believe but they should nto be able to use publicly funded places to further those beliefs, like schools, rec centers, and places like that. I dont think one should be persecuted for your belief god, or Buhdda or whatever you believe in as that would be incredibly hypocritical of me.

Oh. Cool. Guess I was worried for nothing. Heh. Guess I went a bit overboard there. Ah well, all is well.

On topic: I am against schools forcing children to pray or having prayer be part of their schedule. However, there are people who also feel children shouldn't even be allowed to wear or display religious icons in school. Personally, I feel this is wrong. If a kid wants to pray or display his religious affiliation in school, he should be able to. But doing so shouldn't be part of the curriculum.

yeah agreed, im okay with people displaying their religion and im all for it because its that same thinking that allows me to be an Atheist, i just dont think its alright for the school to devote time to Prayer and stuff like that.

 

[JJMUG]

Seems fine to me.

I went to a Church of England Primary School, even though I'm pretty much agnostic now I can still pull most of the Lord's Prayer from memory.

Never messed me up.

Absolutely agreed. People need to frikkin relax, whether they are Christian, Muslim, athiest, or whatever. Should prayer be required in public school? No. Should prayer be allowed? Why the hell not?

Because Public schools are not allowed to endorse a single religion is that hard to understand?

Just because something happens doesn't mean it's being "endorse[d]." And hell, by that logic, expressly forbidding the practice of religion is an "endorse[ment]" of Atheism.

First of love you but that logic quote because there is no logic in your words. Yes the school is in the bible-belt of the U.S endorsing christian beliefs. Also following a secular world view does not expressly endorse Atheism, one can still be secular and believe in a higher power.

 

[OptimisticPessimist]

Sure, as long as it's not mandadory.

 

[Lyri]

My reasoning behind it is that it?s emotionally stressing on anyone who isn?t Christian.

Really?
Praying isn't emotionally stressing at all, if you don't believe then it's no more than saying lyrics to a song or a poem.
As an atheist myself, build a bridge and get over it.

Yeah, it's not emotionally stressing at all to be "that guy". Nothing like being the only kid out of hundreds to not pray.

I think you misunderstand what I was saying.

I'm not buying this emotionally distressing point of view that he is taking because it isn't the prayer itself that's causing it.
This is probably more likely sourced in peer pressure than anything else, after all he did just threaten his school with legal action and that had a negative effect on the rest.

I don't argue with what he did was wrong, he's entitled to it. However I don't agree with his justification. Let me give you a scenario which I'm currently living in.
My girlfriends family is strongly Christian and I however am not, I'm an Atheist. Every Sunday my girlfriend and her family go to church, afterwards we meet up with the extended family and have Sunday lunch.
We all pray, just like every other meal.
It doesn't emotionally distress me that they all pray.
It doesn't bother me at all, since the words they say have absolutely no meaning to me or my life. I hang my head and clasp my hands just like the rest of them and get on with it, the prayer passes and business as usual.

His argument seems more like a child throwing a fit because he doesn't like Christianity and thinks it's a waste of time.
Clearly there are believers there from the negative reaction he received and they are now having to deal with the consequences of one child throwing a "tantrum". (Can't think of the word right now).

 

[Dense_Electric]

What I love is all the atheists bitching about how the religious people are forcing their beliefs on them, so they turn around and try to push a law through preventing the religious from practicing their religion. So basically it's unacceptable for someone else to tell them what to do, but totally okay for them to tell someone else what to do. I'd like to shoot these fucking hypocrites in the head with a 12-gauge shotgun.

Now as for the actual issue - okay, now I agree, a school really shouldn't be pushing a prayer over on its student body, fair enough. Moment of silence in which the individual can do as they please, fine, prayer, probably not. But you know, making a big deal out of it and getting the ACLU and the government involved is fucking overkill for something that really doesn't matter.

You'd think a functioning human that was secure in their own beliefs could just sit there respectfully for thirty seconds and let the religious say a few brief words, but this guy is apparently not that. He's an immature little kid who can't stand it that other people have different opinions from him and therefor tries to force his beliefs on them under the defense that they're forcing their beliefs on them. He is creating far more of a problem than the one that already exists.

I guess it's also worth pointing out that the Constitution (since he brought it up) also guarantees that Congress cannot make a law preventing someone from practicing their religion, so his defense doesn't hold up on that basis either.

Now why don't we just have a "moment of silence" like I suggested and everyone can stop accusing everyone else of pushing their beliefs while they do the same thing.

It does not matter if the majority is christian in a PUBLIC SCHOOL, they do not get their way.

The laws that you laugh at are setup to Prevent Discrimination against those who do not follow the Majority's views. No law as been passed like that. No Atheist pushes laws that make you stop praying in private or in churches/ temples. Stop making stuff up.

He did not get the government involved he pointed out that in his state he practice is no legal.

He is not immature for standing up for the law, unlike you who can not even make an argument, instead just throwing out insults.

He is not forcing his lack of beliefs, The law is on his side.

You are in fact a bigot(you are adhering to your own prejudices and options. ie crying about laws that do not conform to your world view.) , and discrimination against Atheist should not be tolerated, yet it is.

This is no different then any other minority standing up for their rights, unless discrimination against those who are Atheists is ok, and again it is not.

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Ah, I love it when people A), don't read my post, B), infer things that I didn't say (and didn't intend to imply) and then use in their counter-argument, and C, start arguing counter-points to points I didn't even make, it becomes so much easier to tear down their arguments. I've got about fifteen minutes, let's go through it one-by-one:

It does not matter if the majority is christian in a PUBLIC SCHOOL, they do not get their way.

Where did I say anything about the majority getting their way? *Reads through post* Oh, that's right, no where. Now, the person above me did in fact make that point, if you'd like to take it up with him, I in fact agree with you. Just make sure you're arguing with the right person.

The laws that you laugh at are setup to Prevent Discrimination against those who do not follow the Majority's views. No law as been passed like that. No Atheist pushes laws that make you stop praying in private or in churches/ temples. Stop making stuff up.

He's quite clearly trying to stop people practicing their religion. Where they practice it is irrelevant. Now, once again (as I made quite clear in my post), a school should not be forcing prayer on anyone. However, the school (or anyone else) should also not be telling them they can't.

He did not get the government involved he pointed out that in his state he practice is no legal.

Okay, fair enough, I misunderstood his supporting a law to mean he was attempting to push a new one through.

He is not immature for standing up for the law, unlike you who can not even make an argument, instead just throwing out insults.

He's immature because he can't sit respectfully for a few seconds and let someone who wishes to go about their business do so. Now, if they were attempting to make him participate in prayer, then I would fully support him. But there's no reason he can't shut up for thirty seconds and let others be.

Also, I like how you call me out on making insults by attempting to turn the argument around on me personally. Very classy. *Ahem,* but yes, making insults =/= not making an argument. I've got quite a well-reasoned argument that you're free to disagree with, but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

He is not forcing his lack of beliefs, The law is on his side.

He is as much forcing his lack of beliefs as the school is forcing their beliefs. Arguably more so, because the school isn't trying to make him pray. He wishes to make them not pray.

You are in fact a bigot(you are adhering to your own prejudices and options. ie crying about laws that do not conform to your world view.) , and discrimination against Atheist should not be tolerated, yet it is.

Haha, NO. I suggest you actually read my post sometime, I made it abundantly clear that no one should be forcing their beliefs (or lack thereof) on anyone else. If someone wants to pray, let them. If they do not, let them not. If everyone would figure that out we'd be in a lot better shape.

This is no different then any other minority standing up for their rights, unless discrimination against those who are Atheists is ok, and again it is not.

Well, I could make a quite lengthy reply to this, but instead I'm just going to redirect you to my above counter-point.